If DDs can't be the only counter to enemy DDs, why are BBs the only counter to enemy BBs

[Lensar]

Under the current paradigm of warships, BBs are the only threat to enemy BBs. Torps have long since stopped being a threat to pretty much anyone who isn't afk or sitting in smoke. BBs can effectively kill DDs, cruisers, and other BBs, and many BBs have enough AA that even CVs search for easier prey.

 

BB AP does tremendous damage to DDs, ever since the 0.5.6 change, so they don't even need be troubled with switching ammo type. They effectively citadel cruisers that are sitting in smoke or hiding behind an island, and if they nose in many BBs can effectively tank other BBs for quite a while.

 

About the only real remaining threat to BBs (other than enemy BBs) is an fast firing enemy CA sitting in smoke.

 

Am I missing something here? When I play my Iowa, I fear nothing other than enemy T10 BBs. Same for my Bismark, although I also somewhat fear enemy T9 BBs. But even in those cases, as long as I don't over commit, I know I can turn out and buy myself a reprieve if necessary. 

[Xero_Snake]

Have you forgotten about the chance of armor overpenetration? BB's AP shells can't always effectively deal a killing blow to a DD unless the RNG luck is on your side.

You also seems to dismiss the low & medium tier matches where torping a BB up close & personal is still fun. Sure, high tier is much riskier to do that when BBs getting more dakkas. Yet still is viable to kill a BB with DD torps, just need more skills.

Not to mention, there are some chance to overpen a French cruisers from Friant to Emile Bertin.

Please get your facts straight.

[Lensar]

5 minutes ago, Xero_Snake said:

Have you forgotten about the chance of armor overpenetration? BB's AP shells can't always effectively deal a killing blow to a DD unless the RNG luck is on your side.

 

BBs can always effectively kill DDs. Overpen is never an issue.

Please get YOUR facts straight.

[m373x]

6 minutes ago, Lensar said:

Overpen is never an issue.

toppest of keks

[JSFWRX85]

I think you are being a  bit over dramatic when you state BBs are the only threat to other BBs. They are the best protected ships in the game. Of course they should be the hardest to kill. But even still, every class of warship can still kill them. As for them being able to kill everything else. Well they do have the biggest guns. As for a counter, what should the counter look like? Destroyers need to be spotted by another ship or open fire themselves for a BB's secondaries to open up on them. I think all high tier Destroyers can still stealth fire torpedoes. Even with the WASD hack, there is a good chance you eat atleast 1 torpedo out of a spread if you dont know there is a destroyer even in the vicinity. In regards to fearing other BBs, that is how it should be, again the ships opposite you also have the biggest guns in the game and are the most DIRECT threat to you. However not fearing destroyers or cruisers doesnt negate their ability to dispatch a BB to the bottom. 

[skol_vikings]

46 minutes ago, Lensar said:

DDs can't be the counter to enemy DDs

DDs can't counter DDs? There are two lines of Soviet DDs that are really good at that. Throw Z-52 (and Black) on that list if you want.

 

50 minutes ago, Lensar said:

BBs are the only threat to enemy BBs

many BBs have enough AA that even CVs search for easier prey

About the only real remaining threat to BBs (other than enemy BBs) is an fast firing enemy CA sitting in smoke.

Ignoring the fact that all BBs but USN can get rocked by an equal-tier or higher CV, and that torps are still perfectly relevant for well-played DDs, Soviet DDs are also great for BBQing BBs (I've done well over 100k to individual BBs in my Khab, for example). Seems like a decent counter. Same case for Soviet and French CLs and IJN CAs, with or without smoke.

 

And unless someone is showing a lot of side in a BB, BBs aren't even very good counters to BBs. Taking a 5k salvo every 30 seconds is hardly a counter when any of the ships I mentioned above do that much every 10 seconds with HE spam, not including fires.

 

Stahp.

[_WaveRider_]

To say DDs can't counter enemy DDs is flawed, they can.

Unfortunately the bloom effect will now punish them for doing so, but it is not correct to state they cannot fight - and yes I know I have posted the fact that in the top 30 damage dealers in the game only one DD is present in the last 2 weeks and 2 in 'All Time' stats (the khab and khab/Black respectively).

 

However, the decline in the ability to actually do damage is not the fault of a specific line, but rather the collective changes made in game that counter both concealment and torpedoes.

 

This post is only likely to start the BB hate DD hate BB hate DD spiral!

[Lensar]

1 minute ago, skol_vikings said:

DDs can't counter DDs? There are two lines of Soviet DDs that are really good at that. Throw Z-52 (and Black) on that list if you want.

 

No. DDs have always been the counter to other DDs. People argue that is not acceptable, and that cruisers need radar and other tools to kill DDs.

3 minutes ago, skol_vikings said:

Ignoring the fact that all BBs but USN can get rocked by an equal-tier or higher CV

Yes, all those CVs out there at higher tiers.

3 minutes ago, skol_vikings said:

and that torps are still perfectly relevant for well-played DDs

Wat?? Um, no. And everyone knows it.

 

9 minutes ago, skol_vikings said:

And unless someone is showing a lot of side in a BB, BBs aren't even very good counters to BBs

BBs are the ONLY counter to other BBs.

[Lensar]

2 minutes ago, _WaveRider_ said:

To say DDs can't counter enemy DDs is flawed, they can.

 

Hello, no one is saying that. People clamor that DDs cannot be the only counter to enemy DDs. Yet it's perfectly acceptable for BBs to be the only counter to enemy BBs.

[JSFWRX85]

Just now, Lensar said:

Hello, no one is saying that. People clamor that DDs cannot be the only counter to enemy DDs. Yet it's perfectly acceptable for BBs to be the only counter to enemy BBs.

 

What should a BB counter look like? 

[Battlecruiser_Amagi]

I don't see the point of this? A cruiser that knows what he's doing can kill a BB with fires. A DD that knows how to torp can outwit even experienced BB's. A CV that knows how to do his manual-drops can crap all over a BB... The reason why it *seems* like a BB can counter another BB is because MANY BB's sail in predictable lines and don't pay enough attention, giving broadsides to other BB's and pay for it...

 

Is this another thread incoherently complaining about something? Seems like it to me.

[Lensar]

DDs fear BBs and CAs when spotted.

CAs fear BBs.

BBs fear BBs.

[Xero_Snake]

Needless to say, don't over-exaggerate to the point of making Tier X as generalization.

[Lensar]

3 minutes ago, JSFWRX85 said:

 

What should a BB counter look like? 

BBs should fear something beyond other BBs, right? There have been plenty of suggestions:

 

On 6/12/2017 at 6:03 PM, Naughtius_Maximus said:

I believe a good way to fix it would be to remove the crutches ships get, shifting mid-high tier anti-DD mechanics to radar and hydro exclusively. Aka a quality of life improvement. Other ship classes have been getting it for at least a year (Shima torp nerf was around april or something 2016.)

Since there are fewer chances to let off torpedo spreads, they now should allow for more information when to drop.

In those cases, random chance can easily blow up to two minutes worth of major damage contribution.

A. Aircraft no longer spot torpedoes

1. In the 30 seconds to minute it takes for torpedoes to traverse the distance, they can be easily spotted if an errant plane happens to be hovering overhead. Or if your CV player was......negligent and baits the enemy planes in the area. Usually without your own CV scouting the way it is unlikely you will even know there are planes in the path of the torpedoes, especially float planes. And if you DO have a CV spotting for you, congratulations he usually baits the enemy planes into your torpedo path just by prompting a reaction.
2. There are precious few, if any, situations where a USN or IJN DD can "hunt" CVs past tier 6. Tiers lower than 7 are only possible because CVs are fairly slow, unarmored to HE, and low health.

a. In all mid to higher tiers any attempt at the CV is basically a full on commitment from 11km away. As soon as that exclamation mark pops up for the CV you in the DD need to decide to blitz him from his concealment range, or run as far away as possible. Stealth torpedoes highly unlikely to hit owing to exclamation marks, and more importantly the part where you are trying to stealth torpedo into an airport.
b. Any wavering means you'll die as the CV runs away faster than the angle where you can bring all guns to bear, and chasing torpedoes are garbage
c. When he inevitably detects your torpedoes he can more easily scour the general direction you fired them at and will likely find you before you can run away.
d. From that point you are forced to either eat bombing runs, or smoke and sit there as he gets away, then being permaspotted for another quarter of the match. aka he gets away AND you become useless.
e. For the most part this is a 95% losing matchup for IJN/USN DDs, with the possible exception of Gearing (can bring four guns to bear as it chases.) Even then, good luck closing the distance with the Gearing's mediocre top speed.
f. Removing Aircraft spotting torpedoes allows these torpedo based DDs to not need full commitment when spotting a carrier.

3. Keeping aircraft from spotting torpedoes allows more strategic use of it instead of having ages of preparation ruined because of some errant fighter you could not reliably detect before launching gets remotely close to the spread.

B. Failing that, Torpedoes have ship camo and a smaller detection radius. As in, they will return back to invisibility when no longer detected

1. As above, it will at least get CV ships off you for a short while, as they follow those torpedoes until they have calculated the trajectory.

1. If CV is hovering over you chances are he'd rather follow the torpedo trail for a short while rather than just be blind. At the very least it allows the DD a chance to get away.

2. Errant plane paths no longer completely blow 1-2 minutes worth of reload.

C. Remove audio indicators after tier 5. This is too small to be a buff on its own however.

 

D. Remove boiler hit penetration. Currently there is not much difference in BB AP vs HE when shooting at DDs. It is enough of a case that oftentimes BBs will simply stick to AP despite knowing it may have to fire at a DD.

A. Make it an actual choice by making overpen the only option when using AP. For armored DDs like the Khab, normal penetration would still apply, but not for the thinner armored DDs.

1. This allows for fakeout tactics, where BBs see a DD within 7km disappear and now must contemplate whether to load ammo or not.

a. Gives DDs more options in their preferred range, as opposed to now where stuff like Bismark is likely to destroy you within this range. Ridiculous.

2. "Suicide" torpedoing, derogatory as it is, is practically nil in higher tiers due to the devastation of AP. BBs simply point the bow at any approaching DD and the DD will usually lose 2/3 to all its health with no guarantee of sinking the BB (almost all torps must hit to sink and to guarantee that the DD must get to within 3km. Even on a win the DD is crippled, usually.)

a. Nerfing AP in this way will now force the BB to switch to HE and take evasive maneuvers rather than maintain the lazy bow on formation and maintain the lazy AP firing.

 

In case I have not stressed it enough. Currently there is almost no situation in open water where an IJN or USN DD will win versus any CV higher than tier 6. CVs are simply too fast and well armored for the lobbing trajectory of USN 5" shells, or IJN's rear mounted turrets. Can't start a fire reliably enough before he gets his next repairs, and getting all guns to bear usually means the CV outruns you. Meanwhile torpedoes are completely impossible once CV has noticed your presence as he'll usually be running away and parking a fighter on top to insta spot your attempts.

 

[JSFWRX85]

2 minutes ago, Lensar said:

DDs fear BBs and CAs when spotted.

CAs fear BBs.

BBs fear BBs.

 

so emotion = a counter? 

 

What if while im in my BB, i I(respect not fear) the enemy DDs enough to be wary of them and adjust my course, throwing off my aiming on a ship allowing it to expose its broadside and retreat from a dangerous situation?  Is that not a counter? 

[Peo01]

1 hour ago, Lensar said:

many BBs have enough AA that even CVs search for easier prey.

Guess it's time to reroll CV loadouts to the dark age of alpha/cbt.

Remember people of the true horror US CVs used to be.

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

[Lensar]

1 minute ago, JSFWRX85 said:

 

so emotion = a counter? 

Huh?

[Xero_Snake]

Quote

DDs fear BBs and CAs when spotted.

CAs fear BBs.

BBs fear BBs.

 

[JSFWRX85]

1 minute ago, Lensar said:

Huh?

 

you said a counter is a BB FEARING a DD. Fear is nothing more than an emotion.

[Lensar]

4 minutes ago, JSFWRX85 said:

What if while im in my BB, i I(respect not fear) the enemy DDs enough to be wary of them and adjust my course, throwing off my aiming on a ship allowing it to expose its broadside and retreat from a dangerous situation?  Is that not a counter? 

I agree that DDs can be effective in forcing enemy BBs to maneuver and disrupt their fire. But that's not really much of a counter, is it? More of a temporary distraction/debuff.

[Lensar]

3 minutes ago, JSFWRX85 said:

 

you said a counter is a BB FEARING a DD. Fear is nothing more than an emotion.

Ah, gotcha, sorry.

Yes. I think BBs should be afraid that if they don't play extremely carefully when enemy DDs are in the area, that they risk being sunk. Just like CAs risk being erased if they show their broadsides and DDs risk being killed anytime they get within range of the enemy.

[JSFWRX85]

Just now, Lensar said:

I agree that DDs can be effective in forcing enemy BBs to maneuver and disrupt their fire. But that's not really much of a counter, is it? More of a temporary distraction/debuff.

 

Why isnt it a counter? The punching point of a BB (outside 10.6km) are its main guns. Even a BB has to adjust course preventing it from firing then those guns have been removed from the game even temporarily. That is enough to completely save a ship or expose the BBs broadside to devastating fire. That has potentially huge impacts on a games outcome. I think we are so focues on damage that we lose sight of the other things ships can do. A destroyer can launch a full spread of torpedoes and not hit anything but an island BUT that spread being impactful. How many times in game, have we seen BBs turn broadside to avoid getting torped only to get absolutely crushed by gunfire from Cruisers and Battleships? Why cant we argue that being a counter vs a "debuff" 

[skol_vikings]

 

6 minutes ago, Lensar said:

Wat?? Um, no. And everyone knows it.

Guess I didn't get the memo.

Spoiler

 

6 minutes ago, Lensar said:

BBs are the ONLY counter to other BBs.

Good job ignoring what came after that, so I'll say it again. If you're properly angled, you'll take, generously, 10k from a BB salvo in a BB. You'll take that much in half the time from something like a Zao, Henri, Khab, Moskva, etc just flinging HE. Way more when you're burning.

[Lensar]

 

1 minute ago, JSFWRX85 said:

Why isnt it a counter? The punching point of a BB (outside 10.6km) are its main guns. Even a BB has to adjust course preventing it from firing then those guns have been removed from the game even temporarily.

A counter is something that can kill you. Not mildly inconvenience you.

[JSFWRX85]

3 minutes ago, Lensar said:

Ah, gotcha, sorry.

Yes. I think BBs should be afraid that if they don't play extremely carefully when enemy DDs are in the area, that they risk being sunk. Just like CAs risk being erased if they show their broadsides and DDs risk being killed anytime they get within range of the enemy.

 

then mission accomplished, all good BB players make sure to be fully aware of where the enemy DDs are. The only players who dont are the potato BB players who only know 1 direction and one speed, FORWARD AND FULL, and lets face it, those players are extremely easy to kill regardless of what ship you are in.