Moskva vs. HIV...

[_ENO_]

Finding out that HIV is a nemesis for me in Moskva- I've tried shooting over my shoulder but she just closes the distance and mauls me with the 240s. I try head on and angling but eventually she just torps me. 

 

Having a hard time finding advantages- Are there any? At all? 

[Komrade_Rylo]

Henri is just a better ship. Don't feel bad about it.

[aAkula]

The community loves to tell the story of the Mosvka being some amazing high tier cruiser, so many buy into the fantasy and then when they get it realize it's actually a pile of trash compared to the other high tier cruisers.

[Rolkatsuki]

hmm Im not totally sure I would like to get Henri... maybe try HE'n it if it's bow in then if he thinks it's safe to show his side or he needs to do a U-turn to run away from the fires, switch to AP and aim at the waterline under the forward superstructure.

[TenguBlade]

17 minutes ago, aAkula said:

The community loves to tell the story of the Mosvka being some amazing high tier cruiser, so many buy into the fantasy and then when they get it realize it's actually a pile of trash compared to the other high tier cruisers.

While I think this is a bit exaggerated, the essence of it is very true.  This whole narrative of Russian bias has resulted in an image of VMF warships being unstoppable and overpowered when only two or three of them at most (Khabarovsk, Mikhail Kutuzov, and possibly Lenningrad) are like that in reality, and a fair number of them are actually either mediocre or quite awful for their tier.

 

Moskva might have huge amounts of HP, but she is by no means meant to be a tank or even routinely close to the front lines.  The only times you should be around 10km of a target is when deploying radar - and you will need every bit of HP to get in and get out again alive when doing that.  If a Henri IV is in range to effectively hit you with his guns, you are playing the Moskva wrong - either by being too close or by not dodging enough.  Your shells take less than 10 seconds to travel almost 20km - the ship is very capable of hitting targets at maximum range, and you should exploit those ballistics to punish people coming after you long before they can hit you reliably.

[Aschenblume]

Moskva is one that tends to not like to get shot at wherever possible.

[MrDeaf]

Moskva is excellent at long range, with its sub 10s shell flight time to 19.44km
It's pretty useless up close.

You need to get up close in caps to make your presence known and feared so that ships run away.
Moskva cannot do that.

[Lampshade_M1A2]

I guess the Moskva got a bad case of the HIV.

 

Anyway compared to Moskva how does one play the Henri? 

[_ENO_]

Thanks guys. Good food for thought. I have recently swapped out my reload module with range and have been playing more distant... pressing up a little further as things trim down a little. Typically I'm getting run down by HIV closer to the end of battles- 

 

So... has Moskva just been overrun by power creep? I mean it used to have the great guns and... erm... wait. That was pretty much it. Nice belt armour? Decent AA I guess? 

 

Zao is a pyro with speedy decent ranged torps, HIV is a heavy footed sledgehammer with torps, Minotaur is a single torp spamming Kleenex box that can accelerate from 0 to 32knts in 10 seconds or so with an AC-130 spectre gunship strapped Fore and aft... Hindenburg- well I don't know much about it but has torps... DM heavy shells firing at a rate of 9 every 8 seconds or so and murderous AA to lulstomp the one carrier that plays at those tiers. 

 

I invested in Russian bias and damnit I expect value! (Lol)

[pmgaudio]

I dont remember ever being afraid of any ship when I am in my Moskva,,, I aint GREAT in it, but I aint scared in it ....and HIV is not a big deal.... burn it down and bow on like a NC and its all good

[_ENO_]

Thing is outside of it's max range it's hard to hit with its dodgyness and you aren't... and it's shells just murder you at all angles from all ranges. It becomes a rather lopsided exchange- 

 

i cant keep it at range because it is faster. I guess the counter is staying close to a BB and these days they're not hard to find in the bleachers. 

[Admiral_Franz_von_Hipper]

French not-bias > Russian bias.

[_ENO_]

Well I'm hoping at some point they'll take a quick peek at it and make some adjustments. Increase fire chance? Preferential angle mechanics for ap... thicker armor... I don't know.

 

I think Moskva is the Russian Yamato at this point... a little meh except without anything decisively OP. 

[renegadestatuz]

46 minutes ago, Admiral_Franz_von_Hipper said:

French not-bias > Russian bias.

[YamatoA150]

Moskva still has slightly higher gun performance than Henri at all ranges and slightly better armor, IIRC, but Henri has the speed and maneuverability to make up for her slightly weaker guns.

[WhatIsTheOdds]

Moskva is good, Henri is just OP. The speed boost really makes it feel like playing a buffed Khabarovsk. 

[_ENO_]

I agree with that statement entirely. 

[yashma]

4 hours ago, Lampshade_M1A2 said:

Anyway compared to Moskva how does one play the Henri? 

Picture what would happen if the Moskva and Khabarovsk had a child who went to Hogwarts    

 

I just got my Henri the other day and I play her kinda like a Soviet DD.  With speed boost and flags she gets her speed up to 43.9 knots, and with both rudder mods she gets her rudder shift down to around 5 seconds.  This makes her incredibly difficult to hit, even at close ranges, which basically gives you free reign to do what ever the heck you want, go where you want, shoot what you want, and just laugh as the enemy is powerless to stop you.  And for the record I run the reload mod over the range mod.

 

I've even had massive success brawling, yes brawling, with BBs.  It's possible to show a little broadside to bait them to aim for the waterline, and then abuse her speed and rudder shift to actively dodge the BB shells, even at near point blank ranges.  Not to mention her 43.9 knot speed and great torps arcs means it's really easy to yolo torp rush them, and her AP is just monstrously deadly at short to medium ranges.  

*edit  Just a disclaimer, I don't recommend brawling BBs unless you have to as there are better ways to manage your health vs damage.....but if you do have to, just know she can do it.
 

But where the Henri really shines, is in the long range HE spamming/kiting play stye.  Her speed and rudder shift make her a nightmare to hit.  Admittedly this screenshot is from the Saint Louis, but I get similar results in the Henri as well.

Spoiler

She starts fires like crazy, and her raw HE damage is amazing as well.  When kiting away she feels downright brokenly over powered, and there is no better felling in the world then setting a Des Moines on fire, watching it repair, set two more fires and then laugh as it slowly burns to death while all its shells fail to hit you.  It's even better if you can get multiple citadels to finish it off when it finally gives up and tries to turn away.

 

3 hours ago, ENO75 said:

Thanks guys. Good food for thought. I have recently swapped out my reload module with range and have been playing more distant... pressing up a little further as things trim down a little. Typically I'm getting run down by HIV closer to the end of battles- 

 

So... has Moskva just been overrun by power creep? I mean it used to have the great guns and... erm... wait. That was pretty much it. Nice belt armour? Decent AA I guess? 

 

Zao is a pyro with speedy decent ranged torps, HIV is a heavy footed sledgehammer with torps, Minotaur is a single torp spamming Kleenex box that can accelerate from 0 to 32knts in 10 seconds or so with an AC-130 spectre gunship strapped Fore and aft... Hindenburg- well I don't know much about it but has torps... DM heavy shells firing at a rate of 9 every 8 seconds or so and murderous AA to lulstomp the one carrier that plays at those tiers. 

 

I invested in Russian bias and damnit I expect value! (Lol)

The Henri has been power creeped by the Moskva to an extent, but I still feel the Moskva has its niche roles.  For starters the Moskva is probably the single hardest counter to the RN cruisers in the game.  The Moskva is also still very good at brawling BBs, but the recent buff to high Tier American BB citadels is really going to hurt the Moskva in that department.

At this point the main reason I will continue to take the Moskva out despite having the Henri, is the range.  While it may seem like over kill, the ability to set a BB on fire at ranges of 22km as it tries to flee after burning damage control is really satisfying.

When all is said and done the Henri is a superior ship to the Moskva, but that does not mean the Moskva is bad.  It can still burn BBs to a crisp, it can still citadel cruisers from long ranges, it can still get up close to BBs and deliver 10k AP volleys every 10 seconds, it can still snipe DDs from 15km, it can still rack up massive damage totals.  The Moskva may not be the best, but I still lover her.

 

[Taichunger]

4 hours ago, TenguBlade said:

While I think this is a bit exaggerated, the essence of it is very true.  This whole narrative of Russian bias has resulted in an image of VMF warships being unstoppable and overpowered when only two or three of them at most (Khabarovsk, Mikhail Kutuzov, and possibly Lenningrad) are like that in reality, and a fair number of them are actually either mediocre or quite awful for their tier.

 

Moskva might have huge amounts of HP, but she is by no means meant to be a tank or even routinely close to the front lines.  The only times you should be around 10km of a target is when deploying radar - and you will need every bit of HP to get in and get out again alive when doing that.  If a Henri IV is in range to effectively hit you with his guns, you are playing the Moskva wrong - either by being too close or by not dodging enough.  Your shells take less than 10 seconds to travel almost 20km - the ship is very capable of hitting targets at maximum range, and you should exploit those ballistics to punish people coming after you long before they can hit you reliably.

 

I played Moskva several times in PT just to make sure of this, and that is my opinion as well. I stopped grinding the Russian cruiser line at Donskoi because the other T10 cruisers all seemed so much better. Eventually i gave up cruisers altogether at the high tiers, since I couldnt run them at 50%+ win rates for some reason.

 

Quote

(Khabarovsk, Mikhail Kutuzov, and possibly Lenningrad)

 

Well, there's the Gremy and the Nik. :P

 

[Ulthwey]

5 hours ago, ENO75 said:

Finding out that HIV is a nemesis for me in Moskva- I've tried shooting over my shoulder but she just closes the distance and mauls me with the 240s. I try head on and angling but eventually she just torps me. 

 

Having a hard time finding advantages- Are there any? At all? 

That's your problem RIGHT THERE. Henry is a mobile battlecruiser, if you stay bow on he'll just burn you down. Up close he'll torp you. So you can't fight him bow on or up close, what's left? Simply fight him using your own mobility. You have much more accurate guns, so you'll be doing MUCH more damage to him that he will do to you when you kite him around the map. He has a significant advantage when he is either close to you, or when you are bow on (pursuing or reversing). Therefore just dont give him that advantage. Both ships are on par with each other, Moskva just has better accuracy overall. 240's won't citadel you if you are even slightly angled.

4 hours ago, aAkula said:

The community loves to tell the story of the Mosvka being some amazing high tier cruiser, so many buy into the fantasy and then when they get it realize it's actually a pile of trash compared to the other high tier cruisers.

What are you talking about? Moskva is a great ship. Just because most scrubs don't play it properly and get their a.s.s.e.s handed to them is not the ships fault. Too many people try to play bow on, and then start b*tching when they get burned down or citadeled by 16"ers from the front (or torped from a side because they are always sitting in one place).

4 hours ago, Fog_Battleship_NCarolina said:

Henri is just a better ship. Don't feel bad about it.

Oh you are going to find A LOT of people that will disagree with you on that, me included. Up close HIV definitely has the advantage, but at range Moskva will tear HIV apart.

[yashma]

8 hours ago, Ulthwey said:

That's your problem RIGHT THERE. Henry is a mobile battlecruiser, if you stay bow on he'll just burn you down. Up close he'll torp you. So you can't fight him bow on or up close, what's left? Simply fight him using your own mobility. You have much more accurate guns, so you'll be doing MUCH more damage to him that he will do to you when you kite him around the map. He has a significant advantage when he is either close to you, or when you are bow on (pursuing or reversing). Therefore just dont give him that advantage. Both ships are on par with each other, Moskva just has better accuracy overall. 240's won't citadel you if you are even slightly angled.

 

What you're forgetting is that the Henri is much faster, much more maneuverable and has superior HE.  As far as accuracy goes, I say it's relative.  The Moskva's guns do have a higher muzzle velocity, but in the turn the Moskva is also easier to hit because it's bigger, slower and less maneuverable.  That being said I'd give the slight advantage to the Moskva if she were kiting away as the chasing ship usually loses the kiting duel.  

 

8 hours ago, Ulthwey said:

Oh you are going to find A LOT of people that will disagree with you on that, me included. Up close HIV definitely has the advantage, but at range Moskva will tear HIV apart.

I disagree, I feel the Henri is the superior ship head to head as it can dictate the fight.  The Henri forces the Moskva to stay at range and can control the terms of the engagement.  That being said, I don't really really think ships should be compared purely head to head as one on one fights are incredibly rare.  

 

In the grander scheme of things, I feel the Henri is still the superior ship overall.  In my opinion the Henri is a better brawler as well as a better kiter than the Moskva.  The Moskva only outperforms the Henri in a few very niche areas, like countering RN cruisers with radar, and the ability to accurately hit things from max range,  but the Henri's superior mobility really renders that point mute. 

Ultimately when all is said and done, I feel the two ships are very comparable.  The main difference being the Henri has far superior maneuverability and guns that do more damage, while the Moskva has better shell arcs and a short 25 second duration radar.  In most cases the Henri's shell arcs are good enough and the Moskva's radar is too short to reliably counter DDs and is best used to remove RN cruisers.      

Feel free to disagree, but outside of a few niche roles I just don't think there is much the Moskva does better than the Henri.

*edit

And this is coming from a person who's favorite ship in the game, until yesterday, was the Moskva.  I love the Moskva and feel she's a fantastic ship, but after playing the Henri I feel it's just better. 

[_ENO_]

7 minutes ago, yashma said:

Feel free to disagree, but outside of a few niche roles I just don't think there is much the Moskva does better than the Henri.

 

Okay... well on one hand it's reassuring to know that it's not just me who struggles when faced with an HIV. As is the case with many different ships, the secret lies in working together and trying to avoid the one on one, head to head encounter. 

[AnatolyDyatlovDidNothing]

12 hours ago, TenguBlade said:

While I think this is a bit exaggerated, the essence of it is very true.  This whole narrative of Russian bias has resulted in an image of VMF warships being unstoppable and overpowered when only two or three of them at most (Khabarovsk, Mikhail Kutuzov, and possibly Lenningrad) are like that in reality, and a fair number of them are actually either mediocre or quite awful for their tier.

 

Moskva might have huge amounts of HP, but she is by no means meant to be a tank or even routinely close to the front lines.  The only times you should be around 10km of a target is when deploying radar - and you will need every bit of HP to get in and get out again alive when doing that.  If a Henri IV is in range to effectively hit you with his guns, you are playing the Moskva wrong - either by being too close or by not dodging enough.  Your shells take less than 10 seconds to travel almost 20km - the ship is very capable of hitting targets at maximum range, and you should exploit those ballistics to punish people coming after you long before they can hit you reliably.

 

Moskva, the ship with barely there armor everything except the midships deck, borderline nonexistent AA, huge citadel and BB quality concealment/manuevering

 

The only things that it actually has going for it is the combination of health pool (which melts ridiculously fast when shot at) and rail guns for artillery.

 

The ship is overrated by nearly everyone in WoWs. I am not however saying it is a bad ship (despite being my own worst performing T10 CA by a good margin), just that too many people pay attention to a few things (50mm deck armor that covers less than half of the deck, 220mm rail guns, 34 knot speed and 65k health) and ignore everything that is atrocious about it (concealment, maneuvering, AA, all other armor)

[AnatolyDyatlovDidNothing]

11 hours ago, YamatoA150 said:

Moskva still has slightly higher gun performance than Henri at all ranges and slightly better armor, IIRC, but Henri has the speed and maneuverability to make up for her slightly weaker guns.

 

From personal experience of shooting at Henri's in my Zao and Moskva recently, Henri > Moskva for armor.

 

That crap is strait up troll meme's against AP. 

[goldeagle1123]

Lol all these people saying Moskva sucks, like what on Earth. Henri having torps and better HE doesn't mean Moskva sucks, especially when Moskva has battleship levels AP performance with insane flight times. She's basically a floating Soviet railgun platform.