Why is the Bayern turtleback armor so bad in wows?

[_no_one_]

To make this short as possible since english is not my native language this are the armour values for the turtleback in all german BBs.

 

-Nassau             58mm

-Kaiser               75mm

-Konig                80mm

-Bayern              30mm?????

-Gneisenau        110mm

-Bismark            120mm

-F. der Grobe     150mm

-Grober Kurfust  150mm

 

Now i don't have the Bayern anymore so i don't know there is an buff in the armour with the hull upgrade. Can someone explain what is whapenning ?

[Vekta408]

The issue really isn't the turtleback thickness. It works fine as far as keeping you from getting citadel at close range. On both stock and B hull the part that hurts the ship the most is the weird armor under the front two turrets. You get normal pen so hard through that sometimes it might as well be a citadel. 

[anonym_OlK73e329bMY]

The issue really isn't the turtleback thickness. It works fine as far as keeping you from getting citadel at close range. On both stock and B hull the part that hurts the ship the most is the weird armor under the front two turrets. You get normal pen so hard through that sometimes it might as well be a citadel. 

 

If that's the case try not to tell anyone. We don't want these secrets becoming common knowledge!

[SireneRacker]

I haven't really looked at the exact armor layout and thicknesses but I'll try and explain.

 

What makes the turtleback so strong is the angle, since 30mm won't get overmatched and it is angled at ~60°, maybe even more, most shells at close range will bounce due to autobounce. Remember the turtleback on Bayern to be different from the one on Gneisenau since the shell will also have to pass the vertical bulkhead to penetrate the citadel, so the shells will most likely never penetrate the citadel.

[Carl]

I haven't really looked at the exact armor layout and thicknesses but I'll try and explain.

 

What makes the turtleback so strong is the angle, since 30mm won't get overmatched and it is angled at ~60°, maybe even more, most shells at close range will bounce due to autobounce. Remember the turtleback on Bayern to be different from the one on Gneisenau since the shell will also have to pass the vertical bulkhead to penetrate the citadel, so the shells will most likely never penetrate the citadel.

 

it's 78 degrees for angle to the vertical. waaaay past autobounce.

[Carl]

To make this short as possible since english is not my native language this are the armour values for the turtleback in all german BBs.

 

-Nassau             58mm

-Kaiser               75mm

-Konig                80mm

-Bayern              30mm?????

-Gneisenau        110mm

-Bismark            120mm

-F. der Grobe     150mm

-Grober Kurfust  150mm

 

Now i don't have the Bayern anymore so i don't know there is an buff in the armour with the hull upgrade. Can someone explain what is whapenning ?

 

The germans put less armour into the turtleback when building Bayern. Thats it.

[anonym_OlK73e329bMY]

They couldn't find a turtle with a strong shell that year, so they had to settle for a weak one.

[hoom]

Is the historical thickness 30mm?

A quick Google says should be 80mm

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/a9/58/d6/a958d6e6e5de0fbda70503f87c6d4a73.png

 

If it wouldn't make a difference it might as well be 80mm if that was historic.

[goldeagle1123]

Are we really having this discussion? On any hull but the old WW1 era hull, Bayern is virtually immune to being citadeled by anything but a Yamato at point blank range. Regardless of turtleback thickness, it's armor scheme works damn well.

[_no_one_]

8 hours ago, SireneRacker said:

I haven't really looked at the exact armor layout and thicknesses but I'll try and explain.

 

What makes the turtleback so strong is the angle, since 30mm won't get overmatched and it is angled at ~60°, maybe even more, most shells at close range will bounce due to autobounce. Remember the turtleback on Bayern to be different from the one on Gneisenau since the shell will also have to pass the vertical bulkhead to penetrate the citadel, so the shells will most likely never penetrate the citadel.

The shells don't travel in flat lines  at sea levels. so yes  you can bounce shots at point blank ,ranges at 5km or more away you have a great weakness.

7 hours ago, Carl said:

 

it's 78 degrees for angle to the vertical. waaaay past autobounce.

Same thing i mention above.

6 hours ago, Carl said:

 

The germans put less armour into the turtleback when building Bayern. Thats it.

Wrong.

6 hours ago, Hiroe said:

They couldn't find a turtle with a strong shell that year, so they had to settle for a weak one.

Wrong.

4 hours ago, hoom said:

Is the historical thickness 30mm?

A quick Google says should be 80mm

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/a9/58/d6/a958d6e6e5de0fbda70503f87c6d4a73.png

 

If it wouldn't make a difference it might as well be 80mm if that was historic.

Correct. Thx

3 hours ago, goldeagle1123 said:

Are we really having this discussion? On any hull but the old WW1 era hull, Bayern is virtually immune to being citadeled by anything but a Yamato at point blank range. Regardless of turtleback thickness, it's armor scheme works damn well.

What is your definition of at point blank range? 2km? yeah it will work? 5km? sorry nope . that will not work and because it is only 30mm the shells will have no problems with pen your citadel at 45 degrees +/-.

 

What we have here is an hidden weakness in the bayern that shoulnt be there.

[Carl]

Quote

Same thing i mention above.

 

 

Except you'd be wrong. Fuso dosen;t get enough angle fo fall to overcome the sloping till 20km. The tabels are on navweps. I suggest you use them.

[_no_one_]

3 minutes ago, Carl said:

 

Except you'd be wrong. Fuso dosen;t get enough angle fo fall to overcome the sloping till 20km. The tabels are on navweps. I suggest you use them.

I am talking about the fuso? nope. What we have here is a bayern big weakness that doens't have to exist,

[Carl]

Fuso has the arc-iest shells of the T6 and below BB's. She can't get past the turtleback till she;s shooting from 20km away. At that distance she can't pen the belt anyway.

[_no_one_]

1 minute ago, Carl said:

Fuso has the arc-iest shells of the T6 and below BB's. She can't get past the turtleback till she;s shooting from 20km away. At that distance she can't pen the belt anyway.

At that ranges you will never pen the Bayern belt armour, what you can have is plunging fire at the deck armour . That is another thing .

[RivertheRoyal]

I've never citadeled a Bayern.

Her armour is more than adequate at keeping that from happening—to trollish levels. 

She does tend to eat a lot of normal pens though, but that's something introspective of the citadel armour. 

 

Trust me, her armour scheme is stupidly good.

And, you don't have to sacrifice any speed to gain that invulnerability to citadels!

In fact, iirc, the Bayern goes a bit faster than historical.... 

[Carl]

Just now, _no_one_ said:

At that ranges you will never pen the Bayern belt armour, what you can have is plunging fire at the deck armour . That is another thing .

Except if you hit the deck you will bounce because autobounce. A couple of rare edge cases like danae aside where overmatch comes into play, plunging fire to citadels does not happen.

[_no_one_]

1 minute ago, Carl said:

Except if you hit the deck you will bounce because autobounce. A couple of rare edge cases like danae aside where overmatch comes into play, plunging fire to citadels does not happen.

At 20 km away? Plunging fire? I think you are mention the lost of the shell penetration at long ranges against the the bayern deck armour. But that is a different question . I am talking about the bayern weak turtleaback armour and what impact this have at 5km - 10 km.

[RivertheRoyal]

Just now, _no_one_ said:

At 20 km away? Plunging fire? I think you are mention the lost of the shell penetration at long ranges against the the bayern deck armour. But that is a different question . I am talking about the bayern weak turtleaback armour and what impact this have at 5km - 10 km.

 

I think you are misunderstanding Carl. 

Shells from the Fuso will only have enough arc to penetrate the Bayren's citadel past 20km. Which means that nothing will happen in closer ranges. 

[Carl]

Quote

At 20 km away? Plunging fire? I think you are mention the lost of the shell penetration at long ranges against the the bayern deck armour. But that is a different question . I am talking about the bayern weak turtleaback armour and what impact this have at 5km - 10 km.

 

 

As i've allready explained. twice. No effect, you need to be shooting at over 20km to get an angle of fall steep enough not to suffer from autobounce when you hit the turtleback. And at that distance you will autobounce off the deck and fail to pen the belt.

 

At any range you can pen the belt with any gun she faces, (maybe NC accepted i'd need to double check the navweps velocity data tables though), the angle of fall will be too shallow not to autobounce. You need at least 18.1 degrees of fall angle. Fuso is 18.9 degrees at 20,000m.

[Carl]

I tell a slight lie actually. Not even Fuso or NC at 20km could do it. Normalisation occurs after autobounce checks, what this means is that if you hit and pen the belt you'll get 5 degrees knocked off your angle of fall and i don't think any ship in the game has enough pen and angle of fall combined at any range it can shoot-to to do it. Obviously Yamato and Conqueror could cit her as they overmatch the turtleback, so they only have to pen the belt, but it's impossible to face them outside of a training room so whatever.

[_no_one_]

Just tested the Nagato against 8 Bayerns from 1 km to 13 km away. broadside salvos no citadelles. 

[MrDeaf]

Bayern armor is very troll and does not need any buffs to its armor.

[_no_one_]

2 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

Bayern armor is very troll and does not need any buffs to its armor.

Yes you are right.

[cheereereerios]

11 hours ago, _no_one_ said:

To make this short as possible since english is not my native language this are the armour values for the turtleback in all german BBs.

 

-Nassau             58mm

-Kaiser               75mm

-Konig                80mm

-Bayern              30mm?????

-Gneisenau        110mm

-Bismark            120mm

-F. der Grobe     150mm

-Grober Kurfust  150mm

 

Now i don't have the Bayern anymore so i don't know there is an buff in the armour with the hull upgrade. Can someone explain what is whapenning ?

Where are you getting these numbers from? You can look in the armor viewer and see these, the closest I can come up with is that you are looking at various deck thicknesses, but you only have one layer of deck armor listed for Bayern.

[Veasel]

The slopped turtle-back on the Bayern was 80mm the citadel deck was 30mm.  In the armour model it seems to be a uniform 30mm.

Doesn't make a difference for game-play purposes.  Unless they add the HMS Furious in her battle-cruiser form, no ship she'll ever face will over-match the 30mm. 

Though I think the NC can citadel her from extreme range, but she can do that to all the German BBs.