Something needs to be done about T7 premium and MM

[AlcatrazNC]

In this game T7 seems to be the tier where all ship start to shine in their respective role . 

-Gnesenau can tank and deal damage when angling

-Nagato have great firepower but paper armor

-Myoukou is a really good fire starter and HE spammer

-Algerie is pretty much the same as Myoukou but with less raw fire power and bettet range.

...

 

T7 is probably one of the tier I like the most but also one of the tier i hate the most because of the amount of premium that are borderline OP compared to regular ships.

-Saipan with his T9 planes that crapon everything

-Kaga with his insane potential damage (but require a really good player)

-Belfast with his combo smoke+Radar+Concealment module+Insane HE damage with IFHE

-Atlanta/Flint/Hood with insane AA

...

 

During last Ranked season there was full premium team and it was really awfull. Yeah i know potatoes still potatoes it will not change if they are in premium ships however a potatoe in Belfast will always do much more damage than a potatoe in Fiji for instance. A potato in Kaga will always have more chance dealing damage than a potato in Hiryu. T7 premium have larger impact on the game than other premium on other tier. For instance, a Kamikaze is really powerfull but it still an IJN DD with his poor gun system, an Atago is basically a Myoukou with better turret traverse+Concealment+Heal consummable, Missourie is an Iowa with radar. Also most of the time to counter a T7 premium you need another premium which is totally stupid. For instance, the Hood have insane AA due to his rocket launcher. They can be easily destroyed when spamming HE, it's true but if somehow he managed to stay alive with all his AA and he's facing a Ranger or Hiryu. The Hood would have no issue staying alive and winning by point since his short/middle range AA are powerfull. On the other hand now, if the carrier was Kaga it would be another story since you don't need to drop close to your target with torps so Hood's AA is pratically useless.

 

Now the MM is also something that need to be rework, since T7 premium makes T7 game even more unbalanced because of those things listed above. But MM should consider several things such as AA ships. As a CV it's really frustrating to have an ennemi team with a lot of NC, Baltimore, Neptune, Minotaure and other AA ship like that while in your team you have Izumo, Ibuki, Roon and such. Same thing goes with radar. When you have a team with 0 radar ship while the other team have 2 or more. 

 

[RipNuN2]

Atlanta and Hood are poor examples as they have clear weaknesses that negate their AA strength. You dont need a Kaga to drop far enough from the Hood to hit it with torps. The Hood is so freaking long that some torps will still connect. It's just newbs that dont know how to stay out of the short range AA that feed the Hood's AA.

[shadow_wolf2115]

The Hood isn't a target to go after on the early game let your team hit that ship first the AA mounts are ez to knock out with HE then go after it mid to late game.

[o0_sTiCk_0o]

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess the OP never played a single game in the Atlanta, and while it does have decent AA.... it is a paper thin.

[Izolyn]

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess the OP never played a single game in the Atlanta, and while it does have decent AA.... it is a paper thin.

 

Personally, I think Atlanta is a good example of what a premium ship should be like. It's the kind of weird, quirky ship that would never fit in the tech tree (basically, it's a good kind of gimmicky). It's also generally agreed that Atlanta is far from OP. Its advantages: ridiculously good AA, an absurd number of shells put down range, and Radar. Its weaknesses: made of paper, low health pool, not particularly good concealment to go along with that, has torpedoes but their range is terrible, low gun range, rainbow arcs, and its guns are individually weak.

 

Position an Atlanta properly and it can be stupidly easy to rack up damage in. I had a game on Estuary where I got a Confederate and 100k damage where I literally just parked myself behind a rock and sat there for the entire match, because my parking space was next to a cap point in Domination, so I could let them come to me and then rain fire on them. Point cursor at enemy, hold down LMB, easy money. Bonus points for there also being a carrier in that match, so I also turned that cap into a no-fly zone (up until the friendly carrier sniped them).

 

Put an Atlanta somewhere it doesn't have cover, on the other hand, and it evaporates.

[Pata1985]

               

                 If Atlanta was OP, it shouldnt have a 29k average dmg.

 

  There are ships that shine better than others, just know how to counter each and play with the strengths of your ship.

[Hotel_Tango]

I'm helping a friend to grind his US DD line and i'm finding tier 7 to be a lot harder due to the fact that you either get undertiered and have to play safe or you end on your own tier and have to face a load of premiums.

[Wowzery]

Not really seeing it.  Honestly, I see a Saipan on my team, I think, oh great another CV player who can't play.  Against a Kaga several times, each time the team with it lost.  Scharnhorst, same weaknesses in armor as Gneisenau, with weaker guns (higher ROF).  Hood, still learning.  Cruisers, against a BB its about the same, most annoying one is the Shchors, personally.  DDs, watch for torps as a BB.

And I enjoy T6 ships the best, and have no problem against T7 tech tree or premium.

The best thing about T7 is its the last tier one can play without seeing T10 ship and players.

[Psychic_Dingo]

Seeing that you dont play any premium ships, you have enjoyed a completely free to play game. They sell premium ships, players earn elite ship XP and need doubloons to convert to free XP, and the game stays free for you to enjoy.

 

Its true that most premiums are at top end of the spectrum, but they wont sell if they were weak or lacking of special gimmicks. 

[Dr_Venture]

The Scharnhorst is one of the greatest "don't know what you're gonna get" ships....in the hands of a potato it fails easily, in the hands of an ubermensche it's godlike. 

[SireneRacker]

 

Personally, I think Atlanta is a good example of what a premium ship should be like. It's the kind of weird, quirky ship that would never fit in the tech tree (basically, it's a good kind of gimmicky). It's also generally agreed that Atlanta is far from OP. Its advantages: ridiculously good AA, an absurd number of shells put down range, and Radar. Its weaknesses: made of paper, low health pool, not particularly good concealment to go along with that, has torpedoes but their range is terrible, low gun range, rainbow arcs, and its guns are individually weak.

 

Position an Atlanta properly and it can be stupidly easy to rack up damage in. I had a game on Estuary where I got a Confederate and 100k damage where I literally just parked myself behind a rock and sat there for the entire match, because my parking space was next to a cap point in Domination, so I could let them come to me and then rain fire on them. Point cursor at enemy, hold down LMB, easy money. Bonus points for there also being a carrier in that match, so I also turned that cap into a no-fly zone (up until the friendly carrier sniped them).

 

Put an Atlanta somewhere it doesn't have cover, on the other hand, and it evaporates.

 

You could also say the same about Graf Spee, also a ship that is like no other with strenghs and weaknesses.

[PzkwVIB]

 

You could also say the same about Graf Spee, also a ship that is like no other with strenghs and weaknesses.

 

I agree, the Graf is a weird little cruiser, it doesn't really fit anywhere in the tech tree. I agree that premiums either need to offer a different playstyle/"enhanced" version of the tech tree ship (Belfast, Scharnhorst, Indianapolis), or need to be utterly unique (Graf Spee, Atlanta, Hood, Kaga) in either playstyle or gimmick.

[IronCadeyrn]

Atlanta is completely situational in that some luck is required relative to map, game type, and spawn location.  Given the right parameters (like the one mentioned above, on Estuary), then the Atlanta is borderline OP.  In others (say, a standard battle where the Atlanta is uptiered and spawned in a location with poor cover), the Atlanta is almost worthless.  I very frequently play one battle with her and rack up 100k+ damage and then follow that up with a stinker of 20+ damage.  It's truly sink or swim with that boat.

 

Belfast?  Rush rush rush that smoke--no torps to head you off, slower reload allows for WASD dodging (if in a DD), etc.

 

Frankly, your best bet against these "OP" premiums at Tier VII is to grind the UK cruiser line up to the Fiji and kick [edited]in it.  I've got the Fiji, Belfast & Atlanta, and over time I have my best stats in the Fiji.  Best cruiser at Tier VII, IMO.

[m373x]

               

                 If Atlanta was OP, it shouldnt have a 29k average dmg.

 

  There are ships that shine better than others, just know how to counter each and play with the strengths of your ship.

 

Looking at the server average win rate or damage is the least accurate way to determine how strong a ship is, as it does not take into account how difficult to play the ship is to unlock its full potential.

[Pata1985]

 

Looking at the server average win rate or damage is the least accurate way to determine how strong a ship is, as it does not take into account how difficult to play the ship is to unlock its full potential.

 

 

    In that case, the Atlanta has a high skill cieling, which in many cases determines a lvl of OPness, but here in WoW's OP ships are the ones who perform with ease for the average player doing above average dmg because in the end, good players will perform well in almost any ship.

[Stampz]

My only gripe with Tier 7 premiums is that radar is locked away by a paywall at this tier.

[m373x]

 

 

    In that case, the Atlanta has a high skill cieling, which in many cases determines a lvl of OPness, but here in WoW's OP ships are the ones who perform with ease for the average player doing above average dmg because in the end, good players will perform well in almost any ship.

 

 All time stats are skewed by many things such as new ships being introduced, balance changes and so on.

 With this being said I took the average damage for each T7 cruisers for the last 2 weeks (removed Flint for obvious reasons) and calculated a tier average which is 32023 dmg. During the same period Atlanta averages 33771 damage per game which is above the average, comfortable sitting at 3rd place by win rate after Flint and Belfast as well. 

[Stampz]

 

 All time stats are skewed by many things such as new ships being introduced, balance changes and so on.

 With this being said I took the average damage for each T7 cruisers for the last 2 weeks (removed Flint for obvious reasons) and calculated a tier average which is 32023 dmg. During the same period Atlanta averages 33771 damage per game which is above the average, comfortable sitting at 3rd place by win rate after Flint and Belfast as well. 

 

By the same token, since the Atlanta has been out for so long, the only people who are playing them are the ones who know how to perform well in them.

[Sakuzhi]

 

Looking at the server average win rate or damage is the least accurate way to determine how strong a ship is, as it does not take into account how difficult to play the ship is to unlock its full potential.

Except it isn't actually.

 

Thanks for failing to understand the basics of what you claim.

 

First, Damage is only useful when looking at similar ships (generally same-class) as it isn't a 'absolute' value in terms of effect and reward.

Second, Win rate is absolutely a balancing metric.

 

Fact is the Atlanta has a 49.36% W/R on this server. Maybe you are confusing it with the Flint which has a 66.4% W/R because it's a very difficult ship that only skilled players can get.

 

And the Atlanta is the least capable Cruiser of the lot at Tier 7, it struggles against other Cruisers, it can struggle against DDs at range (specifically in the sub 8km range it is literally the best way of deleting a DD in the entire game), it's Torpedoes might as well not exist for what good they are at 4.5km.

 

The only reason it's worth using is it has Radar and AA-barrage. Or if you have a mission which you need to hit a target several hundred times.

 

Of the Premiums, The Belfast is straight out OP.

Of the Premiums, the US ones at T7 are the worst of the bunch. partly because the Indy needs a Bow armor thickness increase (from 16 to 19mm) and a RoF increase.

The Atlanta could likely just use more useful torpedoes and she'd be close enough, or give her guns less floaty arcs. 

 

 

[Battlecruiser_Siegfried]

The only absurdly OP ship in tier 7 is Saipan... I hate that boat.

[Soshi_Sone]

-Atlanta/Flint/Hood with insane AA

Insane AA is only insane if the CV Captain FLIES HIS PLANES IN RANGE OF THE INSANE AA.

 

I have an air spec'd Atlanta and Hood.  I seldom get attacked by air, and I seldom have planes fly in my kill zone.  I figure most CV captains by that time know not to do it.  Or, if they do it, do so when there are no better targets and nothing else to lose.  As for my Atlanta, they just go around and find a target that's not in an AA bubble.  

 

And as others have noted, you can still ding a Hood even if they are full spec.  Might lose all your attacking planes.  But that's sometimes acceptable.  Even more so once the Hood loses some of its AA modules.

 

 

[Sakuzhi]

The only absurdly OP ship in tier 7 is Saipan... I hate that boat.

 

Only thing OP about it is that it gets to disengage without losing a plane to be blunt.

 

The Cheat-Fast is a "does everything and has none of the downsides of a RN CL but all of the perks of one" nonsense. 

 

And if you are wondering it does 150% Average damage to both the Indy and Atlanta. The only thing the Atlanta does well is it's one of the most amusing Rides in the game.

 

Because It out pew-pews everyone.

[m373x]

 

By the same token, since the Atlanta has been out for so long, the only people who are playing them are the ones who know how to perform well in them.

 

I see Atlantas running in the open guns blazing russian DD style getting deleted early on quite often, so no.

 

Win rate is absolutely a balancing metric.

 

 If this was the case you would see a lot of Z23s in competitive, a place where every player understands ships' weaknesses and strengths, and wouldn't see any North Carolinas as it is dead last by win rate on this server in its own tier. In reality it is exactly the opposite because players who compete are not fooled by average numbers on a server full of potatoes.

 

 

 

[Sakuzhi]

  If this was the case you would see a lot of Z23s in competitive, a place where every player understands ships' weaknesses and strengths, and wouldn't see any North Carolinas as it is dead last by win rate on this server in its own tier. In reality it is exactly the opposite because players who compete are not fooled by average numbers on a server full of potatoes.

 

Correlation =/= Causation. Again your inability to discern what you are seeing from what you are talking about is a bit obvious.

 

The Tiger 1 in WoT has been played something like 2 to 3 times the amount that the IS-1 was...but if you just look at the data, the IS-1 was out-performing the Tiger 1.

 

You made the mistake in thinking that everyone is going to do the fore-seen best ship(s) in the game, while that isn't true.

 

Just like it isn't true in LoL or any other MMOBA which is -all- about competition, not everyone just uses the best Champs/toons/whatever.

 

The fact is, Average is the same across the board unless there is some other means to limit the ability for players to acquire the ship. By this I mean the Flint has a different player base, just like the Arkansas and a few other ships given that you can not simply progress and acquire a Flint by playing Random battles, and you can't acquire the Arkansas at -all- unless you already have it.

 

The Z-23 just like the North Car everyone can naturally get it by playing the game. Therefore there is no reason to assume that the average ability is any different. You are making the same equally as flawed argument that happens in warthunder where they claim the Average US pilot is worse than the Average German Pilot. While blindly ignoring the definition of Average.

 

There is no reason to assume that the playerbase is somehow superior or inferior to each other given that you are looking at ALL players because there is no additional requirement to possessing either ship.

 

The reality is, you confused population for effectiveness, the reality is the super 'competitive' players you claim are only a small minority of the player base not majority of them.

 

More to the point, Battleships are always going to be more popular than some random DD-class because that's how it has always been.

 

It's always been in terms of the popular mind about Capital Ships, Use your brain and think about it, when the USN retired the Fletcher and Gearing classes there was barely a blip about it, they go to retire a Battleship?

 

That's a 'huge' thing, Just look at the Iowa-class, You are really going to claim that it's effectiveness and not self-motivated interest in the history and Ships that dictates Popularity in random matches?

 

Further, just so you understand how borked your idea is

 

Look at Ranked, where it -is- all about Ship performance (at least in Rank1-10 because potatoes get ground out). Let's see here

 

In Ranked Tier 7: 

Saipan, Hiryu, Belfast, Shirasuyu, Flint (not surpised), Blys, Myoko, Magato, Fiji, Myoko (ARP), Scharnhorst, Leningrad, Sims, Gnei, Shchors, Maass, Atlanta.

 

Ranked in order of W/R. 

 

The Atlanta is under-powered you [edited]twit, the data screams it in every single way no matter how you want to look at it. 

 

Win rates are absolutely a balancing metric, Damage is only a somewhat limited one if you are looking at similar ships that target similar targets at a similar rate. 

 

 

[JToney3449]

The only ships you pointed out that are boarderline op are the Kaga and the Belfast.  Rest have major weaknesses, the Saipan might be good at AS but its crap at dealing out large damage.  The Kaga has crazy damage potential but those T6 planes get slaughtered.  The belfast how ever is OP but not the kind of OP auto win, just over the top better than its compeditors.  And if AA power makes something OP ill eat my hat, AA is not a balancing factor in this game because it is unused 9/10 games.

 

I will say that the Flint is OP vs Atlanta as it is a better atlanta thanks to better torpedos + smoke, but flint is still an atlanta smoke or no smoke torps or no torps while fun it is marginally effective thanks to low gun ranges.  And as for Hood being OP, im just gonna ask 'You serious? No, really bro you serious?' cause its got the worst guns at T7 by a huge margin crapsecondaries and no torpedos in a game built on HP.  And like I said AA is a nonfactor so AA alone doesn't make anything in this game OP. 

 

T7 is prolly the most balanced of the upper tiers as all the T7s preform pretty well.  With removal of OWSF a lot of what used to be OP now isn't because if you can see it and shoot it you can kill it.  Something being OP usually just means a good player was beating the snot out of someone because they were good not cause the ship was OP.