Mahan Vs Radar

[Pussnboats]

This is a quick battle report of a Mahan vs 3 ships with radar.

 

As soon as the match started I went to cap.  As soon as the flag started to turn, someone turned on their radar and I have to leave cap to conserve my small health pool.  Knowing most of my radar times, as soon as radar was up I tired to cap/scout again in a new cap.  Sure enough, as soon as I start to get control, radar on and I have to leave again to conserve health.  I literally did this the entire match.  To make matters worse, my torp range is so small, I literally could never get into torp range of a single ship for the entire match due to radar.  So to sum up, for the entire match, I could not cap (despite trying 5 times)and could not get into torp range.  All I could do was lay smoke for some bbs and cruisers at range, and sail around shooting my 5x127s at max range.  So my question is what is the purpose of a DD when it cannot get into a single cap, scout,  or fire any torps because of radar.  Keep in mind this was only 3 ships and with more lines their will be bound to be more radar, to make it even worse.

 

I have noticed in the last month the most DDs I have ever seen in one team is 3, the most commone being 1.  I understand why now.  Their is no point in bringing a DD anymore to a match when I will always be spotted.  I might as well bring a BB with a large health pool and large firepower, like the majority of players are now doing.  

 

Not sure how DDs can be saved, but at this rate you wont see them anymore in matches.

[m373x]

post replay and I will tell you

[Edgecase]

While you are correct that Mahan in particular has trouble with radar due to its short torpedo range and relatively poor maneuverability, you also mentioned an avoidable mistake:

 

As soon as the match started I went to cap.

 

As soon as the cap lights up, radar cruisers know to push their radar button. If you skirt the cap for a little while before going in, you can spot the cruisers for your battleships on the initial approach without subjecting your ship to as much danger. Thankfully, you did make the correct decision and retreated. You also played the rest of the match in a safe way, which is a reasonable decision, but boring as you have pointed out.

 

Still, I'm not sure DDs as a whole need "saving". Mahan and Maass have trouble because neither their guns nor their torpedoes are particularly good in situations like this, but Shiratsuyu and Akatsuki are perfectly happy to flood smoke with torpedoes, and Minsk and Blyskawica spam HE from miles away anyway. And T8 destroyers in all lines have enough torpedo range to threaten enemy ships from near the edge of radar range, so if anything, this seems like a problem specific to USN and KM DDs T6-7.

[bacononaboat]

If there are radar ships covering a certain cap.....go to a different cap!

Also it's entirely possible there was long range hydro in play if you were at T9

[Captain_Dorja]

Half the reason there have been so many more battleships in queue than normal is because Hunt for Bismarck campaign was easier to do in a battleship than anything else.

[Izolyn]

So...you waited until the Radar cruiser at one cap definitely had its Radar on cooldown...so that you could go to a different cap, which may or may not have had a different Radar cruiser lurking around whose Radar wasn't on cooldown?

 

I mean, aside from the fact that barring concealment-build Chapayev and them having cover, you'd spot the radar cruisers before you're in Radar range, so you could easily have F3'd them and maybe taken a moment to type in "Hey can you guys take out that cruiser? It has Radar," so that your team knows to focus it down.

[_WaveRider_]

I've had many games where half the enemy team either have hydro or radar, that's on top of the normal spotter/fighter threat. People may say wait until they use their radar and it's on cool down. Lol, excellent advice unless there are 2 in the same area (and of course you can see them....through land mass, you have xray vision!).

 

Unfortunately sometimes as a DD player you have to accept you're not going to be able to do much more than smoke, spot and if you can torp whilst concealed, try a bit of area denial.

 

I'm sure other classes would find accepting that reality.....'unacceptable'. However, if you wish to survive and try and contribute to the team it's something you have to consider nowadays. That's where we are at the moment I'm afraid. You could always captain one of the other ships (CA/BB/CV).

[Slimeball91]

I've had many games where half the enemy team either have hydro or radar, that's on top of the normal spotter/fighter threat. People may say wait until they use their radar and it's on cool down. Lol, excellent advice unless there are 2 in the same area (and of course you can see them....through land mass, you have xray vision!).

 

Unfortunately sometimes as a DD player you have to accept you're not going to be able to do much more than smoke, spot and if you can torp whilst concealed, try a bit of area denial.

 

 

I'm sure other classes would find accepting that reality.....'unacceptable'. However, if you wish to survive and try and contribute to the team it's something you have to consider nowadays. That's where we are at the moment I'm afraid. You could always captain one of the other ships (CA/BB/CV).

 

And this is what really chaps my backside about this debate.  If the circumstances were reversed, it would completely unacceptable.  

[Izolyn]

 

And this is what really chaps my backside about this debate.  If the circumstances were reversed, it would completely unacceptable.  

 

I mean, sometimes when I'm in a cruiser, there's games where there's 6 enemy battleships and no matter where I go two of them have my broadside, so I have to accept that I'm not going to be able to do much more than maybe set a fire or two. I'm sure other classes would find accepting that reality "unacceptable."

 

I hear that carriers have a pretty hard time if they get up-tiered and have to go against 2-tier-higher AA. I'd imagine that in such situations they just have to accept they're not going to be able to do much more than spot and maybe make a couple opportunistic drops on isolated, relatively-low-AA ships. I'm sure other classes would find accepting that reality "unacceptable."

[Lensar]

post replay and I will tell you

 

Yes, post your replay so everyone can mock your skill and play style, dismissing your concerns.

 

Bottom line is, yes, there were probably some other things you could have tried. But this is the direction the game has been going for a long time. More and more ships getting radar creates more and more DD "no go" zones on the map.

 

My advice, focus on playing BBs.

 

 

[Pussnboats]

While you are correct that Mahan in particular has trouble with radar due to its short torpedo range and relatively poor maneuverability, you also mentioned an avoidable mistake:

 

 

As soon as the cap lights up, radar cruisers know to push their radar button. If you skirt the cap for a little while before going in, you can spot the cruisers for your battleships on the initial approach without subjecting your ship to as much danger. Thankfully, you did make the correct decision and retreated. You also played the rest of the match in a safe way, which is a reasonable decision, but boring as you have pointed out.

 

Still, I'm not sure DDs as a whole need "saving". Mahan and Maass have trouble because neither their guns nor their torpedoes are particularly good in situations like this, but Shiratsuyu and Akatsuki are perfectly happy to flood smoke with torpedoes, and Minsk and Blyskawica spam HE from miles away anyway. And T8 destroyers in all lines have enough torpedo range to threaten enemy ships from near the edge of radar range, so if anything, this seems like a problem specific to USN and KM DDs T6-7.

 

I could not spot the Radar ships as they were parked behind islands.

 

[Pussnboats]

If there are radar ships covering a certain cap.....go to a different cap!

Also it's entirely possible there was long range hydro in play if you were at T9

 

I did go to a different cap...all caps were covered

 

[Lensar]

I mean, sometimes when I'm in a cruiser, there's games where there's 6 enemy battleships and no matter where I go two of them have my broadside, so I have to accept that I'm not going to be able to do much more than maybe set a fire or two. I'm sure other classes would find accepting that reality "unacceptable."

 

Oh come on, that was such a half-hearted attempt, I can tell that even you don't believe that.

 

Game imitates life in some ways. When it comes to ship classes, those of a minority (DDs and CVs) are discriminated against and blamed for everything by the majority of players. Worst of all, as a DD main, there's nothing I hate more than a CV!

 

WG can nerf CVs and to a lesser extent DDs, and no one really complains too much. But if it affected other ships, especially BBs, all hell would break lose.

 

[Izolyn]

Oh come on, that was such a half-hearted attempt, I can tell that even you don't believe that.

 

True, it was a rather weak example. (Unless the cruiser is an Emerald. Emerald has to deal with not being able to do anything meaningful a lot. But that's because Emerald is a terrible ship in general.) But the point remains that cruisers also have to take major risks in order to do anything meaningful sometimes, and that's still a pretty equivalent situation to a DD that's spotted.

[Lensar]

 

Here's a video of radar in action from last season. Since the majority of players like to dump on the minority of players that play DDs, I fully expect we'll hear nothing but claims of poor play, laziness, bad DD culture, lack of D work ethic, etc to explain the problem here, all to avoid discussing the systemic problem that is the broken radar mechanic.

 

With that said, about half-way through the battle, I agree I should have rejoined the rest of my team who I was cut off from. But the mechanic was so ridiculous that I could help but keep playing with it, like using a laser pointer to play with a kitten.

 

[Sakuzhi]

 Here's a video of radar in action from last season. Since the majority of players like to dump on the minority of players that play DDs, I fully expect we'll hear nothing but claims of poor play, laziness, bad DD culture, lack of D work ethic, etc to explain the problem here, all to avoid discussing the systemic problem that is the broken radar mechanic.

 

It isn't going away, and it isn't OP.

 

Smoke is OP, you get your crapnerfed into the ground, -then- 'maybe' they'll see about Taking Radar away.

 

Even then, sorry that you feel that DDs should be allowed to sit within 7km of enemy Vehicles while being functionally immune to damage.

[Wulfgarn]

DD hate/nerfs appears to have worked and the population is lowering. Logically, that would mean working as intended.

 

When/if things get critical, a new ship type will be focused for hate. My guess would be CVs

 

At that point, maybe some overall buffs will come for DDs.

[Pussnboats]

 

True, it was a rather weak example. (Unless the cruiser is an Emerald. Emerald has to deal with not being able to do anything meaningful a lot. But that's because Emerald is a terrible ship in general.) But the point remains that cruisers also have to take major risks in order to do anything meaningful sometimes, and that's still a pretty equivalent situation to a DD that's spotted.

 

But cruisers have more health.  More rilfes, radar, sonar, smoke, torps, you know all the things dds have but a lot more health.  Heck my cruisers can even get down to 10k detection

[Pussnboats]

 

It isn't going away, and it isn't OP.

 

Smoke is OP, you get your crapnerfed into the ground, -then- 'maybe' they'll see about Taking Radar away.

 

Even then, sorry that you feel that DDs should be allowed to sit within 7km of enemy Vehicles while being functionally immune to damage.

 

I wasnt within 7km,  try 9km to 10k.  Yes I think dds should be stealthy at 9 to 10k.  Call me crazy.   Remember they have very low health hence why they need low detection

 

[Sakuzhi]

[edited]Forums anyway.

 

 

instead of a long nice post.

 

You should have left the area when you realized that there was 3 radar armed cruisers, and decided to stay there.

 

It's like a Cruiser deciding hanging around 3 enemy Battleships is smart.

[_WaveRider_]

 

It isn't going away, and it isn't OP.

 

Smoke is OP, you get your crapnerfed into the ground, -then- 'maybe' they'll see about Taking Radar away.

 

Even then, sorry that you feel that DDs should be allowed to sit within 7km of enemy Vehicles while being functionally immune to damage.

 

Did somebody actually say this, or is it another exaggeration lol. And please remember that it's just not DDs that have smoke....in fact I don't think there is anything a DD has that another class doesn't have as well nowadays, is there?

 

 

 

and we all know if a DD went within 7km of a BB nowadays they would be shredded by the secondaries!

[Lensar]

It isn't going away, and it isn't OP.

Smoke is OP, you get your crapnerfed into the ground, -then- 'maybe' they'll see about Taking Radar away.

 

Completely expected reply. Victim blaming. It's the DDs fault.

 

If radar existed to counter smoke, it would only detect ships that were in smoke, not every ship within a 10k-ish radius.

 

DD hate/nerfs appears to have worked and the population is lowering. Logically, that would mean working as intended.

 

I agree with you. This is not a design mechanic that was added to improve game balance and create some fun play/counter-play. It was added as a punitive measure to punish DDs and force people away from playing them.

 

It's not a bad business decision, since the majority of players play BBs, as do the majority of whales that spend a lot of money on the game. Personally, I just think it's very short-sighted, as games like warships that require a critical mass of players to be successful can ill-afford to drive ANY players from the game.

 

And I understand how most CA and BB players feel about DDs. Personally, I hate CVs. They can spot me with impunity, park fighters over me, rendering my only form of defense, concealment, useless, and they can easily bomb or cross TB me at will. Planes can scout better than my DD can, can move faster, and have no risk to radar or anything else. A match with CVs adds nothing for me as a DD player other than pain and frustration.

 

Many if not most BB/CA players feel the exact same way about DDs and are not shy about expressing their hatred for the class, and the players that play them, in an effort of making the game as miserable for DD players as possible to drive them away.

 

[Pussnboats]

[edited]Forums anyway.

 

 

instead of a long nice post.

 

You should have left the area when you realized that there was 3 radar armed cruisers, and decided to stay there.

 

It's like a Cruiser deciding hanging around 3 enemy Battleships is smart.

 

I did go to different caps.  They were all covered by ships I could not see and that was in a dd.  there radar was longer than the cruisers detection range.  Thats right the cruiser could  actually be undetected and get close  enough to caps to light them up.  It s easy to do.  Just hide behind some islands

 

[Lensar]

Even then, sorry that you feel that DDs should be allowed to sit within 7km of enemy Vehicles while being functionally immune to damage.

 

This is an 'absurd absolute'. It's used in arguments when people can't defend their points. No one said DDs should be able to sit within 7km of enemy and be immune to damage. That's you attempting to mischaracterize player's concerns, to make us seem completely unreasonable by even raising a question about these mechanics. Happens all the time on these forums.

[_WaveRider_]

 

I did go to different caps.  They were all covered by ships I could not see and that was in a dd.  there radar was longer than the cruisers detection range.  Thats right the cruiser could  actually be undetected and get close  enough to caps to light them up.  It s easy to do.  Just hide behind some islands

 

 

Pussnboats, I'm not joking when I say you will find there are some games where you can't do a lot and you have to smoke and scout with little reward yourself, but this may still help your team to win. I know it doesn't sound appealing; I mean who plays a war game to......not fight lol.

 

It is difficult but the waiting game is one you may also have to play...difficult whilst some of your own team are screaming at you to do this, or do that, but if you can survive until later into the game you may find you have better opportunities to actually do some damage.