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Stauffenberg44

In Praise of Pre-dreadnoughts

Pre-dreadnought Inclusion  

349 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you like to see pre-dreadnoughts included in the game in some manner?

    • Yes
      303
    • No
      18
    • Undecided or 'It Depends"
      28

234 comments in this topic

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14 hours ago, Stauffenberg44 said:

German battlecruiser von der Tann added.

I do not think the design team would even look into it.

 

Edited by borbeck

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Mikasa just feels so dumbed down. Quoting LWM: "A tough low tier Battleship with awful guns, great (but too short ranged) secondaries and very slow speed." I still believe she would've fitted well at tier 3 with a few extra upgrade slots to keep her competitive (similar to Arkansas Beta which has all six slots). Perhaps this could be done for any pre-dreads that may appear in future. Of course this is just wishful thinking.

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4 hours ago, Wolcott said:

Mikasa just feels so dumbed down. Quoting LWM: "A tough low tier Battleship with awful guns, great (but too short ranged) secondaries and very slow speed." I still believe she would've fitted well at tier 3 with a few extra upgrade slots to keep her competitive (similar to Arkansas Beta which has all six slots). Perhaps this could be done for any pre-dreads that may appear in future. Of course this is just wishful thinking.

Mikasa for now is our token broken pre-dreadnought and clearly needs to be rethought, as do all others that come after her. I'm hoping they may start with the Borodino and then a French 'fierce face' ship and gradually add to that as time goes by. I'm convinced this would be a good thing for the game.

7 hours ago, borbeck said:

I do not think the design team would even look into it.

Quite possibly so (perhaps state your reasons?); in any case my main concern is with pre-dreadnoughts and I added a few battlecruisers and dreadnoughts of interest as well, including von der Tann.

Edited by Stauffenberg44

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Wiki said it best! Unique Battlecruiser!  Way to fast( I have a german book that said she could hit 30kts at light load), to much armor( immune to cruisers and DDs ) ,  way to good of a secondary set. hydraulics to change elevation and tracking of the main guns ,  and good rudder shift.  In a good battlecruiser captain's hands it would be seen as way over powered by other players. Since it has the same guns as the battleships, the 1916 charge load charts would give her unmatched hitting power and accuracy. WG would nerf the hell out of it. When angled it could tank like a true battleship. 

 

Class and type: Unique battlecruiser
Displacement:
  • Design: 19,370 t (19,060 long tons)
  • Full load: 21,300 t (21,000 long tons)
Length: 171.7 m (563 ft 4 in)
Beam: 26.6 m (87 ft 3 in)
Draft:
  • Designed: 8.91 m (29 ft 3 in)
  • Full load: 9.17 m (30 ft 1 in)
Propulsion:
Speed:
  • Design: 24.8 knots (45.9 km/h; 28.5 mph)
  • Maximum: 27.75 knots (51.39 km/h; 31.93 mph)
Range: 4,400 nmi (8,100 km; 5,100 mi) at 14 knots (26 km/h; 16 mph)
Complement:
  • 41 officers
  • 882 men
Armament:
Armor:

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3 hours ago, borbeck said:

Wiki said it best! Unique Battlecruiser!  Way to fast( I have a german book that said she could hit 30kts at light load), to much armor( immune to cruisers and DDs ) ,  way to good of a secondary set. hydraulics to change elevation and tracking of the main guns ,  and good rudder shift.  In a good battlecruiser captain's hands it would be seen as way over powered by other players. Since it has the same guns as the battleships, the 1916 charge load charts would give her unmatched hitting power and accuracy. WG would nerf the hell out of it. When angled it could tank like a true battleship. 

Yes I thought that is what you were getting at, I just wanted to make sure you didn't see it as under-powered somehow. ;)

What tier would you put her in if you had the choice... nerfed and un-nerfed?

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T3 is the proper tier, It was designed to wipe out any cruisers or torpedo boats it engaged. I just do not see war gaming releasing it with the deep running torpedo mess going on. If they did release it it, I would have a 19 point captain ready.

1 hour ago, Stauffenberg44 said:

Yes I thought that is what you were getting at, I just wanted to make sure you didn't see it as under-powered somehow. ;)

What tier would you put her in if you had the choice... nerfed and un-nerfed?

 

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I am going to add more pre-dreads. This will be by country. There will be ones mentioned already so just ignore them.

British:

Lord Nelson Class  1904

Invincible  Class 1906

King Edward Class 1902

Swiftsure  Class 1902

Queen Class 1901

Duncan  Class 1898

London Class 1898

Formidable  Class1898

Canopus Class 1896

Majestic Class 1894

Germany:

Brandenburg Class 1890

Kaiser Friedrich III  Class 1896

Siegfried Class 1889

NOTE: Blucher is an armored cruiser with 8 inch guns and not a battleship. I will add more in a later post.

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Even if we just get the Borodino, I'd be so so happy.  The mikasa needs some buffs though, I say buff the crap out of it and move it to tier 3.

People will say but then it will get stomped by the tier 3 bb's currently and to that I say, who cares.   It can have it's own niche of being a well armored secondary's monster but they first need to make the secondary's actually useful and perhaps tighten the dispersion on the main battery a bit.

Look at the South Carolina, it's slow with crap armor that can get eaten alive by basically anything in short order, it's only saving grace is half useful guns, the rest of it is a dumpster fire.

Then you have the Kawachi which... well it's just a dumpster fire with good concealment that likes to shoot sea gulls and fish. 

Overall point being, both of them are underpowered trash compared to other tier 3 bb's and WG seems to be fine with that, a buffed Mikasa would be no different.

Edited by Hangoverhomey
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8 hours ago, Hangoverhomey said:

Even if we just get the Borodino, I'd be so so happy.  The mikasa needs some buffs though, I say buff the crap out of it and move it to tier 3.

People will say but then it will get stomped by the tier 3 bb's currently and to that I say, who cares.   It can have it's own niche of being a well armored secondary's monster but they first need to make the secondary's actually useful and perhaps tighten the dispersion on the main battery a bit.

Look at the South Carolina, it's slow with crap armor that can get eaten alive by basically anything in short order, it's only saving grace is half useful guns, the rest of it is a dumpster fire.

Then you have the Kawachi which... well it's just a dumpster fire with good concealment that likes to shoot sea gulls and fish. 

Overall point being, both of them are underpowered trash compared to other tier 3 bb's and WG seems to be fine with that, a buffed Mikasa would be no different.

Bump Mikasa up to tier 3, give it a few extra upgrade slots a la Arkansas Beta, problem solved. Even better if it can mount Aiming Systems Modification 0.

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Russian pre-dreadnought Slava swapped out for Imperator Pavel I. British pre-dreadnought HMS Agamemnon added.

I'd like to swap out the USN Texas for a more potent USN pre-dreadnought if anyone has any suggestions.

Edited by Stauffenberg44

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18 hours ago, Hangoverhomey said:

Even if we just get the Borodino, I'd be so so happy.  The mikasa needs some buffs though, I say buff the crap out of it and move it to tier 3.

People will say but then it will get stomped by the tier 3 bb's currently and to that I say, who cares.   It can have it's own niche of being a well armored secondary's monster but they first need to make the secondary's actually useful and perhaps tighten the dispersion on the main battery a bit.

Look at the South Carolina, it's slow with crap armor that can get eaten alive by basically anything in short order, it's only saving grace is half useful guns, the rest of it is a dumpster fire.

Then you have the Kawachi which... well it's just a dumpster fire with good concealment that likes to shoot sea gulls and fish. 

Overall point being, both of them are underpowered trash compared to other tier 3 bb's and WG seems to be fine with that, a buffed Mikasa would be no different.

I think it should be improved and stay at tier II but perhaps you are right.

[lol "dumpster fire"]

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I think this might be a great idea for a separate game mode, and would love to see some pre-dreadnoughts in the game. I just don't know if Wargaming will take the time to design all of these. I think Mikasa is unfortunately as close as we're ever going to get. Still, it might be fun to include a few as the starter ships instead of the patrol boats.

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11 minutes ago, erebus3226 said:

I think this might be a great idea for a separate game mode, and would love to see some pre-dreadnoughts in the game. I just don't know if Wargaming will take the time to design all of these. I think Mikasa is unfortunately as close as we're ever going to get. Still, it might be fun to include a few as the starter ships instead of the patrol boats.

Oh I'm taking the long view on this, but WG just might come to believe that their player base would better increase if new players had these ships to battle with at low tiers. The tip of the wedge I am pushing is the Borodino for now and it can't hurt that this is a Russian ship (cunning or what?), but in any case it would be my favourite pre-dreadnought to see appear in the game.

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Just now, Stauffenberg44 said:

Oh I'm taking the long view on this, but WG just might come to believe that their player base would better increase if new players had these ships to battle with at low tiers. The tip of the wedge I am pushing is the Borodino for now and it can't hurt that this is a Russian ship (cunning or what?), but in any case it would be my favourite pre-dreadnought to see appear in the game.

I don't know, I feel like we might be oversaturated with Russian premiums of late, with Oktyabrskaya just around the corner. I would love to see the Germans get a little love though. Von der Tann or Derfflinger would be my personal picks.

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5 minutes ago, erebus3226 said:

I don't know, I feel like we might be oversaturated with Russian premiums of late, with Oktyabrskaya just around the corner. I would love to see the Germans get a little love though. Von der Tann or Derfflinger would be my personal picks.

I can't argue with you about either of those, they would be splendid choices along with the Goeben, but they are battlecruisers and am mainly concerned here with pre-dreadnoughts.

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On ‎2017‎-‎08‎-‎31 at 0:55 AM, Wolcott said:

Bump Mikasa up to tier 3, give it a few extra upgrade slots a la Arkansas Beta, problem solved. Even better if it can mount Aiming Systems Modification 0.

Yeah, that could work and is an easy fix.

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What would tier II pre-dreadnought battle be like?

 

Essentially it would be up close and nasty. Short range big guns: you want to get in close to get all your secondaries engaged asap as well. I would also predict that a major tactic given those ships that actually had ramming prows... lots of ramming. Some pre-dreadnoughts like the Borodino, could even fire off one torpedo from their bow (not submerged) to add insult to injury before they ram. Finally, you can hoist all those ramming flags you have with some confidence they will have an impact... pardon the pun.

So basically, a lot of bash and crash for newbs and old salts alike is my prediction.

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The Russian battlecruiser Izmail (historically only the hull was completed) has been added. With 12 x 14" guns and decent speed and armour, this would be a potent Tier III or IV battlecruiser. The Soviets had plans to complete her as an aircraft carrier so she may end up being the one Russian CV in the game as well.

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