The_African_Queen

Invisibility needs to be removed from the game.

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I have a crazy idea, rather than having the destroyer stalk you, why not stalk the destroyer! Just go full speed towards their smoke and do this with your bismarck.

 

 

Warning: Sound is kinda LOUD

Extra note 

 They threw torpedoes at me before this play too, i hunted all 3 of their little botes down. Don't sit in smoke with a destroyer because a Bismarck might just charge your smoke!

 

dank torpedbeats drifting a battleship like an AE-86

​NANI?! KAISEN SEN-KAN DRIFTO! What?! Inertia battleship drift!

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The nautical horizon is much closer than you think it is. 2.9 miles (4.6km) for an observer at sea level. Trying to observer an object at sea level. 

 

This horizon will get further away depending on the height ASL for the observer and the object being observed. (Hence the in game formula that directly relates the base concealment on most ships to mast height.

 

ORaLUOc.png

 

Not that I understand any of this math. I am just an engine technician after all... Not an engineer.

 

But, I know there are some engineers and statistics guys on the forums that will be able to dig into this for you. (Vak_, where are you, lol?)

 

 

What that means basically if the range is less than the sum of the spotting ranges of each individual ship, the target should be sighted.

 


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If DDs and cruisers had the same concealment as battleships, why would anyone ever play anything but battleships?

 

Battleships are currently, by far, the strongest class in the game. Whereas DDs have been continuously nerfed. Don't get me wrong ... I don't DDs are weak. Just not as strong as battleships.


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I'm not afraid of DDs. I go right at them when the situation warrants it.

 


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If DDs and cruisers had the same concealment as battleships, why would anyone ever play anything but battleships?

 

That's pretty much what OP wants: World of Battleships.

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The problem with most of these nerf threads is that these folks never actually try and play the ships they are asking to nerf, and hence have no idea what their limitations are.

 

It's simple ...as a BB, the moment you are spotted, if you have reason to believe there is a DD nearby, constantly change your speed and bearing. Voila, no hits from random long range torps. Also, if you're a battleship, don't yolo on your own. Your DDs and cruisers are meant to act as a screen so that you can push together and so that they can spot torpedoes long before they get to you. Only solitary battleships sailing constantly in a straight line get torped that easily.


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The problem with most of these nerf threads is that these folks never actually try and play the ships they are asking to nerf, and hence have no idea what their limitations are.

 

It's simple ...as a BB, the moment you are spotted, if you have reason to believe there is a DD nearby, constantly change your speed and bearing. Voila, no hits from random long range torps. Also, if you're a battleship, don't yolo on your own. Your DDs and cruisers are meant to act as a screen so that you can push together and so that they can spot torpedoes long before they get to you. Only solitary battleships sailing constantly in a straight line get torped that easily.

The OP didn't even get hit iirc. Their just... Special.


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dank torpedbeats drifting a battleship like an AE-86

​NANI?! KAISEN SEN-KAN DRIFTO! What?! Inertia battleship drift!

 

Yup. I like to hunt the hunter.

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Ok Gentlemen, and i use that lightly since  most of you all yell Newb, learn  how to play,  then you yell about win ratios..

Last night i was in an Atlanta, spotted a DD disappearing just as it went around an island. division mate in a DD went around other side to trap him.  I turn on My radar 5 sec later.  NO dd spotted 8.9KM range   but his torps are all coming from island at the water line.   this same DD stays invisible  for  5 min  shooting torps until its 1.5-2 km from my Atlanta.. Yes i dodged changed direction constantly  watched mini map   Had Sonar on ..  THE point is we do see ships disappear when we have direct line of sight.  5-7 km  on some DD is the range to be spotted    when a DD can get up to 2km before appearing  theres something fishy in Denmark...


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Posted (edited) · Report post

Ok Gentlemen, and i use that lightly since  most of you all yell Newb, learn  how to play,  then you yell about win ratios..

Last night i was in an Atlanta, spotted a DD disappearing just as it went around an island. division mate in a DD went around other side to trap him.  I turn on My radar 5 sec later.  NO dd spotted 8.9KM range   but his torps are all coming from island at the water line.   this same DD stays invisible  for  5 min  shooting torps until its 1.5-2 km from my Atlanta.. Yes i dodged changed direction constantly  watched mini map   Had Sonar on ..  THE point is we do see ships disappear when we have direct line of sight.  5-7 km  on some DD is the range to be spotted    when a DD can get up to 2km before appearing  theres something fishy in Denmark...

 

Do you have the replay? 

Sharing that would better allow us here on the forums to judge what happened, and make sense of what you're claiming happened. 

Perhaps there's something wrong, or perhaps everything's working as intended. We can't say for sure until you provide evidence. 

Edited by RivertheRoyal

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Posted (edited) · Report post

If DDs and cruisers had the same concealment as battleships, why would anyone ever play anything but battleships?

 

Battleships are currently, by far, the strongest class in the game. Whereas DDs have been continuously nerfed. Don't get me wrong ... I don't DDs are weak. Just not as strong as battleships.

 

Being detected doesn't translate in getting hit at the same rate as a Battleship.

 

Even at Tier 10, it is pretty difficult to hit a non-broadsided DD at 12-15km with some of the most accurate Battleships in the game.

 

honestly, the only thing they'd need to 'adjust' is stop with the sub 7-8km detection ranges some ships get to abuse because it's abusive, then buff them accordingly for the loss of concealment.

 

That said, Smoke is far, far, far more of an issue because until Radar comes into the picture it is an outright busted mechanic that has no actual counter And even -when- we are talking Radar-cruiser tiers there generally isn't enough to stop the smoke spam which is both Skill-less and nearly uncounterable. 

 

Too bad that no one else realizes that Smoke spam is the reason why people hate on most DDs. I cracked off a 120k+ game in a Gaede, then a 140k game in my Farrgut (which has a less than 7pt cap on it) because there's no counter available at Tier 6 to "dropping smoke screen, I'm immune to your petty efforts"

 

The worst part? it wasn't really difficult to do it, i'm not a DD 'guy', I'm not a dd 'main. I am also saying that this doesn't happen everytime, however it does showcase that Smoke is just a joke in terms of how comically OP it tends to be. And no, it isn't just DDs that abuse it. anything that isn't a CV that is in a smokecloud is OP.

 

Edited by Sakuzhi

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The problem with most of these nerf threads is that these folks never actually try and play the ships they are asking to nerf, and hence have no idea what their limitations are.

 

Exactly. I pretty much only play CA/CLs and BBs. But I've played enough DDs to at least  have a clue about how a BB can frustrate them. :) And enough to know that it's not as easy as the BBabies would have you believe.


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Being detected doesn't translate in getting hit at the same rate as a Battleship.

 

Even at Tier 10, it is pretty difficult to hit a non-broadsided DD at 12-15km with some of the most accurate Battleships in the game.

 

With 1/10th to 1/5th the health of a battleship, a destroyer doesn't need to get hit at the same rate as a battleship. Even a single overpen is 10% of my max health and I can't heal that.


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 I don't DDs are weak. Just not as strong as battleships.

 

And that's ok..... or at least, it would be, if a DD player could be rewarded equally well for things that DON'T involve explosions.

 

Ideally, different ship types would be played because they offer different ways to get decently rewarded, instead of just offering different ways to sink other players.


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Posted (edited) · Report post

 

With 1/10th to 1/5th the health of a battleship, a destroyer doesn't need to get hit at the same rate as a battleship. Even a single overpen is 10% of my max health and I can't heal that.

 

Yeah, but you 'rarely' get penetrating hits, and never get citadeled so you will tend to receive 1/3rd the damage (or less) than a BB.

 

I'm not saying that it's the best route forward.

 

I am saying that having 5.5km detection ships is stupid, and has always been stupid and they need to find a better way to make IJN nonsense (and others) less nonsense.

 

And Do something about Smoke spam. Because it's stupid and broken, (my personal favorite is having a smoke-cloud stand off at 6km between my NC, and another NC because both of our DDs concealed us...and we had no targets. Which was more "and this is why this is stupid" or I could point to my WTR rating of like 5,250 for a match I had with my Farragut where I did majority damage to a Bayern and NM at 3-4km because I had a smoke cloud and torpedoes and you can't really 'dodge' very well at that range.

Edited by Sakuzhi

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Posted (edited) · Report post

 

Yeah, but you 'rarely' get penetrating hits, and never get citadeled so you will tend to receive 1/3rd the damage (or less) than a BB.

 

I'm not saying that it's the best route forward.

 

I am saying that having 5.5km detection ships is stupid, and has always been stupid and they need to find a better way to make IJN nonsense (and others) less nonsense.

 

And Do something about Smoke spam. Because it's stupid.

 

I get penetrating hits all the damn time, what are you talking about

 

You just want to be able to see destroyers at 10km so your secondaries can delete them without you even having to think about it.

 

Seriously at that point why even play them? But that's been your goal all along.

Edited by Destroyer_Kiyoshimo

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Being detected doesn't translate in getting hit at the same rate as a Battleship.

 

Even at Tier 10, it is pretty difficult to hit a non-broadsided DD at 12-15km with some of the most accurate Battleships in the game.

 

honestly, the only thing they'd need to 'adjust' is stop with the sub 7-8km detection ranges some ships get to abuse because it's abusive, then buff them accordingly for the loss of concealment.

 

That said, Smoke is far, far, far more of an issue because until Radar comes into the picture it is an outright busted mechanic that has no actual counter And even -when- we are talking Radar-cruiser tiers there generally isn't enough to stop the smoke spam which is both Skill-less and nearly uncounterable. 

 

Too bad that no one else realizes that Smoke spam is the reason why people hate on most DDs. I cracked off a 120k+ game in a Gaede, then a 140k game in my Farrgut (which has a less than 7pt cap on it) because there's no counter available at Tier 6 to "dropping smoke screen, I'm immune to your petty efforts"

 

The worst part? it wasn't really difficult to do it, i'm not a DD 'guy', I'm not a dd 'main. I am also saying that this doesn't happen everytime, however it does showcase that Smoke is just a joke in terms of how comically OP it tends to be. And no, it isn't just DDs that abuse it. anything that isn't a CV that is in a smokecloud is OP.

 

 

And most DDs (with the exception of the Russian ones) are pretty damn useless if dealing with ships at over 10km ranges. DDs need to get close to be effective. Close enough to be vulnerable.

 

There are currently a TON of counters to DDs in the game. Hydro, Radar, secondary gun batteries, a well played CV (albeit as rare as a unicorn these days). Battleships may be easy to hit, but their armor, HP and heals make it so small calibre guns that don't start fires do sweet frak all against them. Torpedoes are a threat, but only if the BB insists on sailing in a straight line for over a minute when spotted close to where DDs are.

 

As for smoke ... smoke is a sure fire way of knowing DDs are in the area most of the time (other than Kutuzov and RN CLs). The moment a BB sees smoke, they *know* they have to be careful. This is why a DD should *never ever* pop smoke unless they are spotted, because doing so gives away their general position. Smoke is annoying, but nowhere near as overpowered as some people think.

 

Trust me ... Battleships are absolutely the most powerful class in the game currently unless sailed by a potato. And potatoes can be found in all classes.


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Being detected doesn't translate in getting hit at the same rate as a Battleship.

 

Even at Tier 10, it is pretty difficult to hit a non-broadsided DD at 12-15km with some of the most accurate Battleships in the game.

 

 

 

At 12-15 kilometers, it's unlikely that the DD will be able to harm you either. In fact, I'd say that DD's are useless outside 15km, and only nominally useful inside that range. For them to actually be effective, a range of about 10km is preferred, with usability increasing the closer you get. 

 

So, the fact that it's difficult to hit a DD outside of 12 or so kilometers shouldn't be a concern to any BB player, since it's only when the DD gets closer that things would get somewhat dangerous.

And even then, high tier BBs—particularly the oh-so popular German ones, and the IJN T9&10—get pretty nasty secondaries. Why worry about hitting a DD when they can do it for you? 

 

And this is all separated from the fact that you still can hit DD's from long range with a battleship—it just takes some practice, and experience with it.

 

 

Yeah, but you 'rarely' get penetrating hits, and never get citadeled so you will tend to receive 1/3rd the damage (or less) than a BB.

 

I'm not saying that it's the best route forward.

 

I am saying that having 5.5km detection ships is stupid, and has always been stupid and they need to find a better way to make IJN nonsense (and others) less nonsense.

 

And Do something about Smoke spam. Because it's stupid.

 

The detection on a DD serves much the same purpose as armor on a BB—It's a survivability measure.

Nerfing IJN DD concealment values will leave them crippled against gunboat DD's and cruisers, as it would be a cake walk to find and delete them in caps and the like. In fact, their concealment values are one of the few things going for them. 

 

As for smoke spam, there are a few easy ways to avoid getting hit by that—The most key of which would be positioning. If you're getting HE spammed by a DD from smoke, and there's no one around you, then it's likely that you are out of place on the map, and need not be where you are. If it's a British cruiser spamming you, simply trace his shots and smack him with a citadel. That normally shuts them up. 

I will also point out that smoke spam is likely here to stay, since it's a survival mechanism much the same as the concealment of a Japanese destroyer. Most of the ships that do it can't really afford to get spotted, since they'll take large amounts of damage rather quickly in that scenario. 

In fact, the only ship that doesn't really need smoke in my own opinion, would be the MK. 

But that's only my own opinion.     


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I get penetrating hits all the damn time, what are you talking about

 

You just want to be able to see destroyers at 10km so your secondaries can delete them without you even having to think about it.

 

Seriously at that point why even play them? But that's been your goal all along.

 

Which ship do I own that has 10km range Secondaries?

 

Do you even know what the hit rate of a Secondary-specced Ship is against DDs? I'll give you a hint, it's less than 1%.

 

"woo" (now, i'm going to point out, I don't actually have a T8+ German Battleship)

 

I want to see Destroyers past 8km because I'm sick of the never detectable nonsense that some DDs get away with, there's no purpose in having a system set up that way.

 

Stop trying to pin me as something I'm not, it was old months ago and hasn't gotten any newer.

 

Either you get that I hate anything that allows a purely one-sided skill effect that removes the person you are fighting ability to actually fight back against you.

 

Or you don't get why I consider that I bunch of crap. You are personally in the latter section because you refuse to realize that I can -sit- at 6km away from a Battleship for the entire match with a Kagero and endlessly fire off Torpedoes and there is nothing they can do about it.

 

And that's crap, just like Smoke-spam is crap for the same reason the only difference is the smoke-spam crap is just outright Broken, and the iJN DDs are a poor method for trying to balance a line that needs to be over-hauled because their skill floor and ceiling are some of the lowest in the entire game.

 

 

The detection on a DD serves much the same purpose as armor on a BB—It's a survivability measure.

Nerfing IJN DD concealment values will leave them crippled against gunboat DD's and cruisers, as it would be a cake walk to find and delete them in caps and the like. In fact, their concealment values are one of the few things going for them. 

 

As for smoke spam, there are a few easy ways to avoid getting hit by that—The most key of which would be positioning. If you're getting HE spammed by a DD from smoke, and there's no one around you, then it's likely that you are out of place on the map, and need not be where you are. If it's a British cruiser spamming you, simply trace his shots and smack him with a citadel. That normally shuts them up. 

I will also point out that smoke spam is likely here to stay, since it's a survival mechanism much the same as the concealment of a Japanese destroyer. Most of the ships that do it can't really afford to get spotted, since they'll take large amounts of damage rather quickly in that scenario. 

In fact, the only ship that doesn't really need smoke in my own opinion, would be the MK. 

But that's only my own opinion.     

 

Then you should realize that it's a measure that has no real counter, therefore it needs to be changed.

 

As for Smoke spam, you give suggestions, it doesn't change the fact it's a busted [edited]mechanic, like it or not. That is -exactly- what it is. The system is crap, the counters for the system simply don't exist.

 

Oh and before you cry more about the overly-talked about IJN DDs, did you miss the point where I said buff them to adjust for the loss of Concealment? God forbid that you read the entire post :)

 

You see "Smoke spam needs to be changed" and translate that is "Remove Smoke altogether" when that is -clearly- what I did not say.

 

Try actually not inferring anything beyond what I specifically state, because I say what I mean...unless i'm being snarky  which you well...you'll know when that's a thing.

 

 

 

At 12-15 kilometers, it's unlikely that the DD will be able to harm you either. In fact, I'd say that DD's are useless outside 15km, and only nominally useful inside that range. For them to actually be effective, a range of about 10km is preferred, with usability increasing the closer you get. 

 

So, the fact that it's difficult to hit a DD outside of 12 or so kilometers shouldn't be a concern to any BB player, since it's only when the DD gets closer that things would get somewhat dangerous.

And even then, high tier BBs—particularly the oh-so popular German ones, and the IJN T9&10—get pretty nasty secondaries. Why worry about hitting a DD when they can do it for you? 

 While yes, DDs aren't doing much at that range but, I was refuting that they'll be magically deleted at max range by Battleships or Cruisers, not that they would be effective at 12-15km.

 

Edited by Sakuzhi

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And that's ok..... or at least, it would be, if a DD player could be rewarded equally well for things that DON'T involve explosions.

 

Ideally, different ship types would be played because they offer different ways to get decently rewarded, instead of just offering different ways to sink other players.

 

Well, DDs do get a good chunk of base XP and credits from capping. But I do agree that spotting should be rewarded MUCH more than it is now. A player who understand spotting and concealment mechanics is a tremendous asset to their team. It should be encouraged.

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Posted (edited) · Report post

 

Which ship do I own that has 10km range Secondaries?

 

Do you even know what the hit rate of a Secondary-specced Ship is against DDs? I'll give you a hint, it's less than 1%.

 

"woo" (now, i'm going to point out, I don't actually have a T8+ German Battleship)

 

I want to see Destroyers past 8km because I'm sick of the never detectable nonsense that some DDs get away with, there's no purpose in having a system set up that way.

 

Stop trying to pin me as something I'm not, it was old months ago and hasn't gotten any newer.

 

Either you get that I hate anything that allows a purely one-sided skill effect that removes the person you are fighting ability to actually fight back against you.

 

Or you don't get why I consider that I bunch of crap. You are personally in the latter section because you refuse to realize that I can -sit- at 6km away from a Battleship for the entire match with a Kagero and endlessly fire off Torpedoes and there is nothing they can do about it.

 

And that's crap, just like Smoke-spam is crap for the same reason the only difference is the smoke-spam crap is just outright Broken, and the iJN DDs are a poor method for trying to balance a line that needs to be over-hauled because their skill floor and ceiling are some of the lowest in the entire game.

 

There is a very effective way of rendering DD's—particularly torpedo based DD's—ineffective. 

Unfortunately, it involves teamwork, which is most often sadly neglected in this game, and dismissed. 

Everyone wants to deal with everything themselves, and this isn't the way to go about it. 

 

That being said, it's rare that I see an IJN DD being able to top the team charts. 

I wonder why, if they're able to endlessly spam damage dealing torpedoes from concealment—why aren't they doing better? 

Edited by RivertheRoyal

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If IJN dds were spotted past 8 km they would accomplish nothing and die fast. I also don't see how they can effectively torp things of their detection range is longer than most of their torpedo ranges. What bb in their right mind is going to keep driving straight when he sees an IJN DD aiming at him?


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There is a very effective way of rendering DD's—particularly torpedo based DD's—ineffective. 

Unfortunately, it involves teamwork, which is most often sadly neglected in this game, and dismissed. 

Everyone wants to deal with everything themselves, and this isn't the way to go about it. 

 

That being said, it's rare that I see an IJN DD being able to top the team charts. 

I wonder why, if they're able to endlessly spam damage dealing torpedoes from concealment—why aren't they doing better? 

*clears throat* You haven't seen a Kamikaze in a T4-5 match with only one or two DDs and 5 BBs per team, have you? :trollface:


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*clears throat* You haven't seen a Kamikaze in a T4-5 match with only one or two DDs and 5 BBs per team, have you? :trollface:

 

Kamikaze is a clone of pre-nerf Minekaze. She's now considered overpowered for her tier. It's very unlikely you'll see her in the shop again.

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