LittleWhiteMouse

Fun and Engaging Science (Part One)

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Posted (edited) · Report post


Nice work, appreciate the time.

 

  • Do separate magazines share hit points as one big communal pool or does each magazine have its own HP pool?

 I can answer this one.

Magazine health pools are separate.

mhdqAhQm.png?1

 

 
powdermagazine
 Max HP 27 100
 Auto Repair Time 40
 Regenerated HP per usage 0.5
powdermagazine
 Max HP 24 800
 Auto Repair Time 40
 Regenerated HP per usage 0.5
powdermagazine
 Max HP 24 800
 Auto Repair Time 40
 Regenerated HP per usage 0.5

 

 

Edited by MJPIA

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aPWxGiI.gif

 

  • Is it better to hit modules with a single large alpha strike or does chipping at it with a series of smaller, rapid fire hits give a better overall chance?

 

As I understand game mechanics, every separate shell hit generates a roll for detonation. Out of this would follow that it's better to hit with 10 shells doing 1k dmg than 1 shell doing 10k damage. Out of this would also follow that salvo or volley fire doesn't matter.

 

Ofcourse, I could be wrong and there could be a limit to the amount of det rolls per time unit, for example. In which case it's still better to saturate with large amounts of small hits in order to reach that point rather than singular large hits and remain under that point.

 

Anyways, have a Jeff Goldblupvote for your work.


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Posted (edited) · Report post

"Fun and Engaging"

 

Giggity.

 

 "Fun and exciting!"

 

 

To be perfectly honest, when I started playing the game, I actually went actively shooting in the magazine areas of enemy ships. It was from those shots that I learned that there is something called the citadel as well.

Edited by Admiral_Franz_von_Hipper

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Well I don't know much about game mechanics and just detonations in general. However, I do appreciate your scientific and meticulous approach you took to this.

 

Well done and a +1


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Welp, still need to figure out the blast radii of the various HE shells to see how annoying they can be but until then I'll admit that in certain cases detonations do involve some skill just like a cit. 

 

zV8dFKB.gif


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*snip*

 

Mouse, you are either one of the most dedicated and studious individuals I've ever encountered, or gripped by a particularly disturbing form of monomania.

 

+1 from me either way. :D


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Mouse, you are either one of the most dedicated and studious individuals I've ever encountered, or gripped by a particularly disturbing form of monomania.

 

As long time friend and collaborator of Mouse's ...

 

 c7NJRa2.gif

 


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I know another common detonation...

torpedo to the #1, #2 turret area of Iowa

 

might want to try that with RNCL that can single fire.


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What I'm getting from this is that magazines are a lot more vulnerable than I had thought, and that they get pounded much more often. 

 

This means that in practical gameplay, detonations are even more RNG dependant than I previously thought.

 

Furthermore, your conclusions seem to reinforce my argument that detonations serve zero gameplay purpose, because as you mentioned: 

... tests with Omaha have shown that at the ranges Atlanta can guarantee hits into the forward magazine of Omaha, if presented with a broadside, it's much more expedient to simply hammer their citadel with AP shells instead

 

Detonations are pointless in situations where you can deliberately try to score them, because killing people the usual way is much more effective, 

 

Outside of situations where you can reliably try to get them, they're just RNG arbitrarily handing the other guy a win.

 

What purpose does this mechanic even serve?


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Very interesting. It gives the most biting gameplay mechanic some meaning behind it, regardless of people's perceptions of it.

 

+1 as always Mouse. :great:


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What purpose does this mechanic even serve?

 

At a guess: to give the person detonating someone else's ship a moment of "Copulate yeah!". Keep in mind that a majority of players aren't particularly great, and thus won't often win 1v1 situations or carry a skirmish, and for all of us it's "Copulate yeah!" moments that keep us coming back to the game. For seasoned, skilled players carrying a match or turning a certain defeat into a nailbiter win gives us those moments. For Joe Average, detonating someone does.

 

That's my theory at least.


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Posted (edited) · Report post

Or, you know, the ship will just detonate from a single 100 mm shell (my poor blyska) ....I appreciate that there's some science to it but then there's still RNG 

 

+1 LWM

Edited by bacononaboat

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At a guess: to give the person detonating someone else's ship a moment of "Copulate yeah!". Keep in mind that a majority of players aren't particularly great, and thus won't often win 1v1 situations or carry a skirmish, and for all of us it's "Copulate yeah!" moments that keep us coming back to the game. For seasoned, skilled players carrying a match or turning a certain defeat into a nailbiter win gives us those moments. For Joe Average, detonating someone does.

 

That's my theory at least.

 

So basically, you're proposing that detonations serve as a way to allow less skilled players a way to feel good about the game.

 

I find several flaws with this argument:

 

1) There already exists a mechanic that allows less skilled players to punch above their weight: Normal HE and fire mechanics. Easy to grasp, powerful, but not AS powerful as proper use of AP.

 

2) You have to be alive, and scoring hits to roll detonations. both are challenges for the less experienced players you propose detonations aims to help.

 

3) Stacking on to 2, detonations are just insanely rare, even for people with high accuracy. Add on the fewer tries less skilled players get, and the fact that they're being hit more often.... this is a mechanic stacked against less experienced players, if anything.

 

Imo, an average Joe player is more likely to score normal devastating strike like situations just by accident than they are to score a detonation.


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Imo

 

k

 

Or, you know, the ship will just detonate from a single 100 mm shell (my poor blyska) ....I appreciate that there's some science to it but then there's still RNG

 

A magazine has hitpoints. When damage is applied to a magazine it gets a detonation roll, the less hitpoints the higher the chance it blows and the more undamaged the magazine, the lower the chance to det. But there's still a chance it does.


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I suspect issm's question has less to do with not understanding the purpose of detonations (as the devs have explained it in Q&As and there's no way he hasn't read or listend to them) and more to do with his disagreeing with the dev's explanations for why it's in the game in the first place. 


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Posted (edited) · Report post

Even more Questions

As usual, whenever I start looking into game mechanics, I end up with more questions than answers.  Before I move onto the next step, I need to sit down and try and get these figured out to isolate testing results.

 

  • Does overpenetration damage affect modules or are they ignored?  I've been unable to set off an Omaha's magazine with overpenetrations thus far with my Atlanta, so I'm inclined to believe they cannot.
  • Can the blast radius of HE shells seems to be able to set off magazines? How big are these radii on given shells?  Gamesmodels3D.com (from which I gathered those nice screenshots) lists Atlanta's as "0.38" while Warspite and Hood have "2.23" -- what unit of measure is that tied to?  Is that meters?  How are these AOE effects counted?  Can an non-penetrating HE hit set off a magazine?
  • What about standard AP penetrations?  AP shells do not have a blast radius.  Does their path need to stop inside a magazine in order to cause damage to the module?
  • And finally, torpedoes have a blast radius too.  Does this conform to the same unit of measure as HE shells?  How exactly is their module damage calculated?

 

 

I'll try to answer some of these.

 

1) Yes. I'm guessing with your omaha tests you had already depleted the magazine HP when saturating the section. You can do 43% nominal shell damage with an overpen that passes through the magazine after impacting a section that has not had any saturation applied (just remembered that overpens deal 10% nominal damage regardless). You can also do some other very, very strange combinations by incorporating magazine hits.

 

2) Yes! I have seen a screenshot of someone with 0 hits that detonated a poor DD. Sadly, I don't think I saved it. But it's certainly possible.

 

3) As above, as far as I know, magazines will register a "full normal penetration" worth of damage as long as the AP shell passes through them.

 

4) I'm not sure on the measurement bit, but torpedoes can also hit magazines (which is why torpedoes sometimes do more damage than expected). Due to the high alpha of torpedoes and saturation mechanics, the resulting equation can be quite complicated. 

 

 

Edited by Scout1

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Posted (edited) · Report post

I suspect issm's question has less to do with not understanding the purpose of detonations (as the devs have explained it in Q&As and there's no way he hasn't read or listend to them) and more to do with his disagreeing with the dev's explanations for why it's in the game in the first place. 

 

Correct.

 

And none of this testing you're doing to flesh out and illustrate the mechanic is providing a compelling reason otherwise.

 

They reinforce my previous conclusions: The mechanic does not offer any new, better, skill based way to fight, since as you mentioned, at ranges where scoring magazine hits to roll for dets, normal citpens will kill the enemy more quickly and/or consistently.

 

Absent a new mechanic to plan around, detonations remain, for all practical intents and purposes, a completely arbitrary mechanic through which RNG decides games.

 

You say:

 

"I can include an entry under the durability sections of my reviews as to a given ship's risks of blowing up.  Having this kind of knowledge would be invaluable"

 

When, for practical gameplay purposes, it's as valuable as knowing the differences between a (pre-nerf) Minekaze and a Kamikaze R.

 

Sure, they're different, but it's not really going to change anything about how you approach them.

Edited by issm

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I totally recall detonating a khab with HE splash damage from tirpitz HE


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Great post!

 

Thanks for all your efforts!


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Sure, they're different, but it's not really going to change anything about how you approach them.

 

Having an idea on how likely a ship is to detonate will allow Mouse to better judge whether to recommend captain skills and equipments.

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Another great mouse thread. Seriously mouse needs her own thread visual cue like devs get so we can see her threads at a glance.


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Posted (edited) · Report post

So in last week's installment of the regular crop of detonation threads, I was inspired to try and really wrap my brain around how detonations worked in game and to see if I could exert a measure of control upon them within regular game play.  Thanks to various Q&A sessions with Sub_Octavian, I have a reasonable grasp of detonation mechanics.  But it wasn't the theoretical that I was interested in.  Instead, I wanted to see how often I could cause them, if I could do so easily and if I could teach others to do the same.  Now, I'm nowhere close to being finished.  I think if I could describe this project's current state, "almost ready to seriously start beginning to prepare for the task".  There's a lot still to do and it shocks me at the scale of what this undertaking entails.

 

Early Lessons

The first lesson that was really hammered home to me is how little I understood about internal layout of the ship's ammunition lockers in game.  Here's just a short list of some of my misconceptions.

 

  • Misconception #1:  All magazines are inside the ship's citadel.

This one shouldn't have surprised me, but it did.  Destroyers don't have citadels, so it makes sense that their ammunition wouldn't be stored in one.  But what did catch me off guard was that various light cruisers also kept their ammunition in separate storage lockers well removed from the citadel itself.  Some are even stored in the bow and stern sections, meaning it's possible to fully saturate the area of a given ship with shells, landing zero-damage hits and still hit the ship's magazine and cause a detonation.  Battleships seem to largely follow the rule of keeping their blowy-up stuff inside their citadels, though.

 

What does this mean for Game Play?   It means that lining up the perfect shot against some ships to do the maximum amount of damage isn't necessarily going to give you the best chance of detonating someone.  In fact, in many engagements, it will be downright to your detriment to attempt to set off their magazine when you could score reliable, heavier damage on the ship's citadel.  Inversely, it also means hits that seem like they shouldn't matter can be catastrophic as it touches off your ammunition stores.

 

2881aww.png

Tier 4 IJN Light Cruiser, Kuma, showing her magazines (in red) separate from her citadel (in yellow).  Strikes against her magazines will not register in game as citadel damage.

 

  • Misconception #2:  All magazines are well protected and are typically located well beneath the waterline to keep them safe.

So if the shells and powder aren't always stored in the citadel, how well protected are they?  Well, first the real shocker:  A lot of ships of all types (destroyers, cruisers and battleships) have magazines that sit in part over the waterline.  And while there may be substantial bits of armour around (most) battleship magazines, it shouldn't surprise anyone to learn that some cruisers have nothing more than the structural metal of their bows and sterns to keep it safe -- as little as 10mm in some cases.  What this means is that on a per-ship basis, the level at which magazines are exposed to enemy fire differs.

 

What does this mean for Game Play?  All ships are not created equal.  Certain ships have much more vulnerable magazines than others.  We have to dismiss the simplistic view that detonations rates between classes within the same type are going to be similar.  Destroyers may seem to detonate more than cruisers or battleships, but even within that type, some destroyers will be more vulnerable to magazine hits than others -- often to a significant degree.  Players that gain this knowledge and put it to use will make themselves less prone to catastrophic damage while being able to pull off some seemingly impossible results.

 

25tyj4o.png

Top down view of the tier 6 Battleships with magazines that extend over the water's surface highlighted in red.   Imagine is not to scale. 

Left side:  Fuso, Mutsu, New Mexico.  Right side: Arizona, Dunkerque, Bayern.  Bottom:  Warspite.

 

  • Misconception #3:  Magazines are very small targets relative to the size of the ship.

I thought most ammunition and powder magazines were about the size of one of the ship's turrets and tucked snuggly down behind the base of the barbettes closer towards the ship's center.  To hear people go on about how difficult a shot it would be to hit them reliably, you can imagine my surprise to see the variety out there.  Some ships do have tiny magazines.  Others have magazines that span a third of the length of the ship (or more!).  It's no wonder certain ships seem to pop like overripe zits when you tickle them with even small caliber HE fire on their extremities. 

 

What does this mean for Game Play?  Landing reliable hits against a ship's magazine isn't an impossibility -- in fact, against certain ships it can be downright laughable.  High Explosive fire with its burst radius makes this even simpler.  Generally speaking, any high explosive shell landing on the rear deck is likely to damage any above-water magazines of Gremyashchy, for example.

 

m7s5fl.png

Top down view of the tier 7 destroyers showing the differences in magazines sizes.  Of the ship's total length, some of these ships have magazine spaces that account for 1/4 of the total.  Large magazine sizes seem to be a typical design feature of Soviet and Russian destroyers.

Left side:  Akatsuki, Shiratsuyu, Mahan, Sims.  Right side:  Maass, Minsk, Leningrad, Blyskawica

 

  • Misconception #4:  Ships within the same class have the exact same magazine layout.

Again, I don't know why I thought differently, but when a ship gets upgraded from Hull A to B or C, it's entirely possible that the location of the magazines can shift, even if it's just raising and lowering the waterline.  What may have been an exposed, vulnerable magazine on the stock hull might be one of the most difficult shots to land on the fully upgraded version of the ship.  This also means that premiums based around a ship-class might have different layouts and levels of protection as well.

 

What does this mean for Game Play?  There are variations to magazine layouts between ships, even within the same class.  There is a lot memorization when it comes to learning where the different magazines are and which ships are more vulnerable to detonations.

 

iodk4y.png

Rear magazine of Omaha (A-Hull) on the left and the completely submersed rear magazine of Marblehead on the right. 

 

38% of the time it works everytime

I took these lessons to heart and decided to start my preliminary work just seeing if i could cause detonations with any form of regularity.  There are two levels of RNG at work where detonations are concerned and I wanted to minimize their influence as best I could.  The first step was to minimize the chances that my shots would deviate from the target.  This was easy enough to solve -- just park myself within 3km of unmoving bots in the Training Room.  The second was a little more difficult to isolate but I'm rather proud of the solution I came up with.  I found a way to mathematically guarantee that I could detonate a target 100% of the time:  Find a target to shoot at with magazines located in the bow or stern section of the ship where damage saturation would prevent the ship from sinking from direct damage alone.  There would be one catch to this, though.

 

I selected Omaha, the tier 5 USN Light Cruiser as my target of choice.  The A and B Hull Omaha have forward magazines located above the waterline, beneath the #1 turret.  This is a rather easy target to hit, even up to ranges of 10km.  The C-Hull Omaha also has her magazines in the same location, but because she rides lower in the water, they're fully submerged.  These magazines are not a part of the ship's citadel.  As my chariot, I picked my Atlanta.  The reason was simple:  She has a great rate of fire.  In theory, this would give me more bites of the apple, as it were, when it came to stacking damage quickly against the Omaha's magazines.

 

I was immediately rewarded by detonations -- and a lot of them.  After hundreds upon hundreds of bots murdered and thousands of shells fired, I'm at a 38% detonation rate.  This may seem a far cry from the 100% I was boasting earlier, but high explosive shells have this unfortunate habit of setting the Omaha bots on fire, y'see, so those 62% that survived horrendous explosions were casualties of the fires set, not direct damage done.  However, this test is repeatable.  With a player sitting in the Omaha managing the Damage Control Party consumable, it's entirely possible to keep the ship alive indefinitely until the magazine cooks off.

 

I took this a step further by trying some one on one duels with active and armed bots in the Atlanta.  I set them off with the same reliability -- peppering their bows while they manoeuvred and shot back, dodging their torpedoes.  While they put out the first fire I would set and in theory should have prompted more detonations, this was offset by the gunnery challenges of hitting a not-really evasive target underway and at further ranges.

 

What does this mean for Game Play?  The only thing this proves is that if you hit a magazine often enough and the enemy can survive taking the damage, detonations are inevitable -- which may not seem like much of a discovery, but it's an important one.  Detonations would be far more commonplace if ships had more hit points and it makes me wonder if statistically, for example, Khabarovsk with her Repair Party has a higher rate of detonation than a Khabarovsk that runs without it.  Oh, the things I would do if I could pull down the server statistics from Wargaming...

 

Even more Questions

As usual, whenever I start looking into game mechanics, I end up with more questions than answers.  Before I move onto the next step, I need to sit down and try and get these figured out to isolate testing results.

 

  • The first is simple enough:  We know that as a magazine takes damage, the chance to detonate increases.  This value never reaches 100%, even when the magazine's health is fully depleted.  The big question is what is this upper maximum?  Is it the same for all ships?  Is it balanced by tier / upgrade status like Fire Resistance Coefficients?  Do different ships have different maximums?  Is it possible, even, that different magazines have different maximums within the same ship?
  • Do separate magazines share hit points as one big communal pool or does each magazine have its own HP pool?
  • How module is damage calculated -- how much damage does an individual shell do to a component?  Is it fixed to the shell damage we see in port or is there some other equation at work? 
  • Is it better to hit modules with a single large alpha strike or does chipping at it with a series of smaller, rapid fire hits give a better overall chance?
  • Does overpenetration damage affect modules or are they ignored?  I've been unable to set off an Omaha's magazine with overpenetrations thus far with my Atlanta, so I'm inclined to believe they cannot.
  • Can the blast radius of HE shells seems to be able to set off magazines? How big are these radii on given shells?  Gamesmodels3D.com (from which I gathered those nice screenshots) lists Atlanta's as "0.38" while Warspite and Hood have "2.23" -- what unit of measure is that tied to?  Is that meters?  How are these AOE effects counted?  Can an non-penetrating HE hit set off a magazine?
  • What about standard AP penetrations?  AP shells do not have a blast radius.  Does their path need to stop inside a magazine in order to cause damage to the module?
  • And finally, torpedoes have a blast radius too.  Does this conform to the same unit of measure as HE shells?  How exactly is their module damage calculated?

 

2i2565f.jpg

Two detonations seconds apart.  This second Omaha detonated on the second hit from Atlanta's guns.

 

Going Forward, one Deflagration at a Time

Depending on what answers I get to the questions above, there's several obvious paths I could undertake from here. The most likely is more stationary-bot work -- attempt to isolate the per-shell chance of various guns against easily-struck magazines.  From this, the likelyhood of individual hits setting off a detonation can be very roughly calculated and the feasibility of targeting magazines in Random Battles as a strategy to trying to eliminate targets can be approximated.  For example, my tests with Omaha have shown that at the ranges Atlanta can guarantee hits into the forward magazine of Omaha, if presented with a broadside, it's much more expedient to simply hammer their citadel with AP shells instead -- they'll die within two reload cycles as opposed to requiring lord knows how many hits to kill the Omaha via detonation.

 

The same will need to be done with torpedo strikes and then bomb hits from aircraft.  Then individual ships will need to be tested for their vulnerability to detonations and eventually (maybe!) I can include an entry under the durability sections of my reviews as to a given ship's risks of blowing up.  Having this kind of knowledge would be invaluable, especially when it came to knowing which modules a ship should invest in with its first upgrade slot.

 

Fun and engaging indeed!

 

KAVidI0.gif 

 but not because i dont care, its because my brain would actually, for real, explode from trying to take in all the info you bring

Edited by tcbaker777

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Posted (edited) · Report post

I suspect issm's question has less to do with not understanding the purpose of detonations (as the devs have explained it in Q&As and there's no way he hasn't read or listend to them) and more to do with his disagreeing with the dev's explanations for why it's in the game in the first place. 

 

Because there is no gameplay reason for it to be in the game, except to speed up the killing and reduce game duration. The dev explanations are not trustworthy because they do not reflect reality as experienced by the players. Nor do they mean anything, really -- a large segment of the player base objects to dets because they are anti-game, anti-immersive, and anti-team. Surely that is reason enough to remove them.

 

That dets are amenable to skill if the ship is stationary is something that was theoretically true, which you have now demonstrated. Good work.

Edited by Taichunger

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