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Jakajan

How could carriers be made to be more fun?

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Looking at carriers in a more game mechanic way, how could carriers be made more fun to control?


These are just my opinions, not all of these are good.

 

Allow us to define control groups and group our torpedo bombers and dive bombers into tighter groups. A Hakuryu has 8 groups right now. I would like to have the ability to group them into 2 groups of fighters, 1 torpedo bomber and 1 dive bomber squad for quicker in air command issuing. They could still be seperate squads but all able to be selected from a single hot key.

 

Strafing is too strong, it puts American tier 6-8 CV at a huge disadvantage against Japanese CV. I would like to see straffing nerfed or removed from it's current form. The most number of fighters that carriers should be able to kill in one straffe should be maybe equal to the number of fighters in the squadron that is strafing. So a US squadron could shoot down max of 7 planes with an average number of say 3.5 and Japanese squadrons would shoot down a max of 5 planes in a straffe with an average of 2.5, this is with the aircraft superiority skill.

 

Change the torpedoes that planes use to slowly get better and faster as tiers climb, even a 1 knot improvement or 100 damage per tier would be welcome. Give the US torpedoes a better rate of climb of maybe 2 knots per tier and 300 damage per tier while the Japanese get more bombers. So the top end US torpedoes would do about 12k damage and travel at a speed of 52 knots with torpedo acceleration. This is scary and rightfully effective. Japanese torpedoes would do about 9.2k damage and travel at a top speed of like 46 knots at the top end. So yeah, don't make the torpedoes massively better but make them incrementally better like how german destroyer boat torpedoes start good but slowly get "better".

 

Personally I would start here. I would also make some adjustments to improve auto drops so that people who are potatoes are not quite as terrible. Also I would not be opposed to an auto straffe of sorts.


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lower skill ceiling

A single ship should not be able to influence the outcome of a match so heavily.


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lower skill ceiling

A single ship should not be able to influence the outcome of a match so heavily.

 

Yep, that is why I was calling for the nerfing of straffe and improvement of auto drops. Also regenerating hangars might be good so that losing planes just means a reduced temporary attack power now, with longer term ability to recover and not be dominated for as long.

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I think that there should be just one attack. No more manual and automation. Auto is useless against anything but high tier Battleships that can't turn. Manual is good but has a steep learning curve. Same goes for regular attacks and strafing. They need to make one kind of attack. I like what they are doing with the Kaga TB squads.


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Posted (edited) · Report post

I think that there should be just one attack. No more manual and automation. Auto is useless against anything but high tier Battleships that can't turn. Manual is good but has a steep learning curve. Same goes for regular attacks and strafing. They need to make one kind of attack. I like what they are doing with the Kaga TB squads.

 

You pose an interesting point. Are you suggesting removing auto attacks and only having manual ones? I don't think that wargaming would do that, but it would make the interface way easier.

 

I would still like it if fighters automatically strafed when selecting a target.

Edited by Jakajan

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why would you make USN torpedoes do more damage than IJN torpedoes when the opposite was true?


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Posted (edited) · Report post

Perhaps some flavor for the different nations?

 

Perhaps a Japanese CV, on 50% or less health, could launch 'kamikaze' strikes with its aircraft? (increased chance of hits, guaranteed loss of aircraft?)

Perhaps Later US and mid-RN carriers can get some sort of detection bonus for Radar Fighter Control?

 

Dunno. CV play seems very limited, frustrating and 'flavorless' to me atm

Just tried it again for the first time since closed beta.

Didn't engage me for long

Edited by HMS_Formidable

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Make them visible from across the map, and make detonations apply to them.  That would make them more fun and enjoyable...for me.


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Make them visible from across the map, and make detonations apply to them.  That would make them more fun and enjoyable...for me.

 

If you,  as someone who primarily captains cruisers,  has issues with CV's then that's a learn to play issue, bud.

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Perhaps a Japanese CV, on 50% or less health, could launch 'kamikaze' strikes with its aircraft? (increased chance of hits, guaranteed loss of aircraft?)

 

Before someone freaks out, I'm sure this guy is not advocating for a real kamikaze attack. I like the idea of a more accurate, more fragile strike pattern as a dynamic option. However, I'd make the number 10%.


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Reason for US Torps doing more damage is currently they get 6 tp bombers in the air at high tier compared to ijn 12. Could scale up dove bombers more I guess.


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More "Fun"? For the CV players or for the ones facing it? 

 

Fun for me would be to implement 220 loadout for Ranger and Lexington and bring back 122 loadout for Midway and Essex....................(But that certainly won't be fun for the receiving end)


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Reason for US Torps doing more damage is currently they get 6 tp bombers in the air at high tier compared to ijn 12. Could scale up dove bombers more I guess.

 

This is never,  at any point,  balanced.  From sheer damage output to ease of use,  IJN torpedo bombers are always better.  This is supposedly balanced by USN dive bombers dealing more damage but with it being HE and subject to some pretty awful rng is this rarely the case in my experience.

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Well I have not played many high tier US carriers, though back when I could do manual drops on the Langely I found the spread of 6 torpedoes to be very impressive indeed. I am looking forwards to getting independence so i can actually straffe and do manual attacks again.


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Well I have not played many high tier US carriers, though back when I could do manual drops on the Langely I found the spread of 6 torpedoes to be very impressive indeed. I am looking forwards to getting independence so i can actually straffe and do manual attacks again.

 

Yeahh... Those were the days...

 

Sadly, once you get to high-tiers, you usually only have 4 bombers by the time you get through their AA, IF that much...


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Looking at carriers in a more game mechanic way, how could carriers be made more fun to control?

 

These are just my opinions, not all of these are good.

 

Allow us to define control groups and group our torpedo bombers and dive bombers into tighter groups. A Hakuryu has 8 groups right now. I would like to have the ability to group them into 2 groups of fighters, 1 torpedo bomber and 1 dive bomber squad for quicker in air command issuing. They could still be seperate squads but all able to be selected from a single hot key.

 

Strafing is too strong, it puts American tier 6-8 CV at a huge disadvantage against Japanese CV. I would like to see straffing nerfed or removed from it's current form. The most number of fighters that carriers should be able to kill in one straffe should be maybe equal to the number of fighters in the squadron that is strafing. So a US squadron could shoot down max of 7 planes with an average number of say 3.5 and Japanese squadrons would shoot down a max of 5 planes in a straffe with an average of 2.5, this is with the aircraft superiority skill.

 

Change the torpedoes that planes use to slowly get better and faster as tiers climb, even a 1 knot improvement or 100 damage per tier would be welcome. Give the US torpedoes a better rate of climb of maybe 2 knots per tier and 300 damage per tier while the Japanese get more bombers. So the top end US torpedoes would do about 12k damage and travel at a speed of 52 knots with torpedo acceleration. This is scary and rightfully effective. Japanese torpedoes would do about 9.2k damage and travel at a top speed of like 46 knots at the top end. So yeah, don't make the torpedoes massively better but make them incrementally better like how german destroyer boat torpedoes start good but slowly get "better".

 

Personally I would start here. I would also make some adjustments to improve auto drops so that people who are potatoes are not quite as terrible. Also I would not be opposed to an auto straffe of sorts.

 

The CV is most fun when it is NOT in the match. Keep it in your port, play with it's modules and consumables when you are bored, but do NOT click Battle.

 

Play a Real ship Class.


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The CV is most fun when it is NOT in the match. Keep it in your port, play with it's modules and consumables when you are bored, but do NOT click Battle.

 

Play a Real ship Class.

 

Yeah, I think the Germans and Italians said exactly the same thing....

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Yeah, I think the Germans and Italians said exactly the same thing....

 

And the crew of Yamato.

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If you,  as someone who primarily captains cruisers,  has issues with CV's then that's a learn to play issue, bud.

 

I have no issues with CV's, 'bud'.  In fact, I drool when CV's are in the game.  You'll never hear me whine about CV's being OP or any other class of vessel for that matter.

 

Cheers!


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tbh, I'd actually like to see fighter strafing have an effect on ships. Historically, fighters would have taken targets of opportunity, like cruisers and destroyers, even if it didn't do much. I had tried out the 2-0-1 loadout on USS Independence and once the weaker DBs are all shot down, there's not much for the fighters to do after clearing the skies but to play spotter for allies. If there's any allied ships left.


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Posted (edited) · Report post

lower skill ceiling

A single ship should not be able to influence the outcome of a match so heavily.

 

^ Exactly this

 

CV Class is overpowered, Wargaming knows it but doesn't want to talk about it. IJN CV is stupid overpowered right now.

 

CV is the same kind of Sky Cancer the SPG class is in World Of Tanks, which is why I quit that game,

 

Play a REAL ship class.

Edited by BigJohnsonLogan

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Posted (edited) · Report post

Eh... I've played up to tier 7 regularly, and CV's aren't that common, and when they do show up, they are rarely that relevant. I'm actually impressed when one of them sinks a ship, and sinking 2 is shocking. Now, maybe the game changes radically in the last few tiers, and CV's are suddenly devastating, but I doubt it. And even if that does happen, that means they are glorified paperweights for most of the game. 

 

I've played up to the tier 6 Independence, which I rarely use anymore since it's torture to play. My planes get torn apart by AAA or AS load enemy carriers, and I'm lucky if I do much of anything all match. Sure, I'll shoot down some planes, hit a few ships with bombs and torps, but I feel totally irrelevant most of the time. And that's the problem, IMHO.

 

From the opinion of a mid-skill carrier player in mid-tiers, CV's take far more micro-management skills to play, and then everything hinges on those long seconds when you're on final approach to the target. If anything goes wrong - which often happens - your attack is rendered nearly worthless, you probably lose a bunch of planes, and you sit around twiddling your thumbs waiting for what's left of your squad to fly back, reload, and try again. Meanwhile, with every other class I can stay on station, reload, and quickly try again. No other class has as much down-time as CV's, and yet you're stuck doing so much during the downtime - chasing targets, trying to avoid having your planes torn apart, etc. It's a class of regular disappointments and bad surprises: Your full dove bomber squadron managed to miss a slow BB, your planes on final approach get jumped by fighters that came out of nowhere. You lose lots of planes on an attack run and barely get a single hit in, and so on.

 

Now, I'm not saying they need a straight-up power buff because of the obvious problems with that, but they need to be more fun and engaging in a good way, not in a micro-manage everything because one slip up or bad turn of fate wrecks you sort of way. Finally, I see no evidence CV's are overpowered, and they are easily the most frustrating class to play, where you spend lots of time doing "nothing" but waiting to be disappointed.

Edited by old_radagast

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Eh... I've played up to tier 7 regularly, and CV's aren't that common, and when they do show up, they are rarely that relevant. I'm actually impressed when one of them sinks a ship, and sinking 2 is shocking. Now, maybe the game changes radically in the last few tiers, and CV's are suddenly devastating, but I doubt it. And even if that does happen, that means they are glorified paperweights for most of the game. 

 

I've played up to the tier 6 Independence, which I rarely use anymore since it's torture to play. My planes get torn apart by AAA or AS load enemy carriers, and I'm lucky if I do much of anything all match. Sure, I'll shoot down some planes, hit a few ships with bombs and torps, but I feel totally irrelevant most of the time. And that's the problem, IMHO.

 

From the opinion of a mid-skill carrier player in mid-tiers, CV's take far more micro-management skills to play, and then everything hinges on those long seconds when you're on final approach to the target. If anything goes wrong - which often happens - your attack is rendered nearly worthless, you probably lose a bunch of planes, and you sit around twiddling your thumbs waiting for what's left of your squad to fly back, reload, and try again. Meanwhile, with every other class I can stay on station, reload, and quickly try again. No other class has as much down-time as CV's, and yet you're stuck doing so much during the downtime - chasing targets, trying to avoid having your planes torn apart, etc. It's a class of regular disappointments and bad surprises: Your full dove bomber squadron managed to miss a slow BB, your planes on final approach get jumped by fighters that came out of nowhere. You lose lots of planes on an attack run and barely get a single hit in, and so on.

 

Now, I'm not saying they need a straight-up power buff because of the obvious problems with that, but they need to be more fun and engaging in a good way, not in a micro-manage everything because one slip up or bad turn of fate wrecks you sort of way. Finally, I see no evidence CV's are overpowered, and they are easily the most frustrating class to play, where you spend lots of time doing "nothing" but waiting to be disappointed.

3WNzaoq.gif


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There are two things that happen with CVs. Someone begrudgingly works with the system and figures out the gamey arcade mechanics and becomes a God. A skilled player with a Hosho or with a Taiho, he's gonna wreck people. Obviously a bad player won't even matter. But there's no 'middle ground'. To make matters worse you decided your role before combat. Enemy has a lot of scout planes? back in NF you could blind the enemy team by taking out scouts. HUGE help. here? Worthless. The scouts stay within the AA bubble of adjacent ships, and you get nothing for it, while making your fighters vulnerable to enemy fighters.

 

The above post makes an excellent point. You spend several minutes orchestrating an attack, and when, not if, something goes wrong, you just wasted half the round - and half of our aircraft in some cases. If you screw up as a BB? DAMAGE CONTROL, REPAIR. hell, RNG gives you a few Citadels and your enemy disappears. They essentially sling a full flight of DBs at targets every 20 seconds without having to worry about enemy fighters.

 

You know what they need? Planes to not instantly die. So you can make a run on a cruiser, and he pops his AA ability. Instead of losing 4/4 planes, maybe you lose 1 and 2 are damaged and need to regroup. and only one gets the attack off.

Have a stat that is the pilot's mental state. We somewhat have this in game. They pop their AA or fighters chase them and they jsut plain all die. Instead, gives planes more HP. For arguements sake, 60-80% more. And instead of dying after losing their current HP value, they "Panic" and are unable to attack. Much like how Turrets can be damaged and repaired, planes obviously can't repair in air so we can justify this as the pilot breaking under strain. They break off the attack instead of all dying instantly. You'd gain a new way to balance, give CVs some Quality-of-Life improvements, yet not actually make them much more deadly. The Great CV captains won't get as much use out of this, as much as the casual joe would. Ship borne AA would be better at panicking a pilot, while fighters would be hands down the best way to slaughter them in the traditional manner.

 

Give CV captains more chances to recover mistakes. DDs and some CLs have smoke. BBs have a variety of repair mechanisms. A good CV strike can tip a match, as it was in history. But there's simply no room for error with the planes. Only have 1-2 flights of fighters? Oh wait the enemy caught yours, now just go lose half of them just to escape. You strafed his bombers and got them all? Well he strafed your fighters getting out of their strafe and now you're out of fighters. The number of planes a CV has is all the flex room it has. yet it is fixed. Can't even have same-nation aircraft go onto an allied CV when one is sunk. They didn't all just bail into the sea when their carrier went down. They tried to make it to a land based airfield or another carrier when they could.

 

There are so many options if the developers picked up a book and looked at how carriers operated.

 

 


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Posted (edited) · Report post

3WNzaoq.gif

 

Seeing them remove the carrier class, that would be worth an upvote.

 

 

 

Give CV captains more chances to recover mistakes. DDs and some CLs have smoke. BBs have a variety of repair mechanisms. A good CV strike can tip a match, as it was in history. But there's simply no room for error with the planes. Only have 1-2 flights of fighters? Oh wait the enemy caught yours, now just go lose half of them just to escape. You strafed his bombers and got them all? Well he strafed your fighters getting out of their strafe and now you're out of fighters. The number of planes a CV has is all the flex room it has. yet it is fixed. Can't even have same-nation aircraft go onto an allied CV when one is sunk. They didn't all just bail into the sea when their carrier went down. They tried to make it to a land based airfield or another carrier when they could.

 

There are so many options if the developers picked up a book and looked at how carriers operated.

 

 

 

How is it I just got out of a Tier X match in my Shimakaze where the enemy Tier 9 Essex just ambushed me with every single squadron at the start of the match. I got spotted by fighters at cap point A, torpedoed in my smoke by his TB squadron then chased by 3 squadrons of DB who hammered me until I burned to death. I was dead in first 3 minutes of match. That was so "fun and engaging" for me at the expense of some inbred [edited]grinding the US CV line for this inbred [edited]Carrier weekend event.

 

F carriers !!!

Edited by BigJohnsonLogan

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