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Mahrs

How to win in VMF DD?

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I know I will regret not grinding to Khab...only reason I am hanging in there, really.  However, I have a problem.  It has been said that VMF DD are better cruisers than many cruisers.  I can certainly understand that.  The additional survivability they gain from being harder targets combined with their RoF and smoke give them some of the same advantages the RN cruisers enjoy.  Anyhow, on to the question:

 
How in the heck do you win in these boats?  For comparison sake:
  Tashkent 9 DD  USSR 32 40.63% 48,982 1,472 1.3 0.8 0.2 41% 30% 4% 1,348
                               
  Kiev 7 DD  USSR 43 51.16% 42,497 1,410 2.3 0.8 0.3 63% 32% 8% 1,306
  Ognevoi 6 DD  USSR 36 52.78% 42,664 1,203 1.8 0.9 0.4 53% 40% 23% 1,639
  Gnevny 5 DD  USSR 32 59.38% 26,905 1,012 1.4 0.7 0.4 50% 35% 13% 1,213
  Izyaslav 4 DD  USSR 76 50.00% 32,004 947 2.4 1.3 0.0 46% 42% 13% 1,505
  Sims 7 DD  USA 21 71.43% 41,500 1,612 2.8 1.0 1.0 62% 40% 7% 1,710
  Mahan 7 DD  USA 36 72.22% 35,438 1,566 2.4 0.9 0.0 61% 34% 5% 1,586
  Farragut 6 DD  USA 59 50.85% 35,584 1,044 1.7 1.1 0.0 39% 38% 9% 1,547
  Nicholas 5 DD  USA 23 52.17% 35,907 1,236 2.4 1.3 0.3 43% 40% 14% 1,612
  Clemson 4 DD  USA 64 57.81% 39,888 1,362 2.6 1.5 0.0 41% 46% 16% 1,552

Gnevny was apparently a lot better than I gave it credit for...despite my poor sailing, it won matches in its small sample.  However, while Tier V and VI were rough for me in either nation (and I have a theory on that - namely, sucks to be a Tier VI DD...), look at "old" Kiev and Tashkent versus Sims and Mahan (or Clubson versus Izyaslav). 

 

Yesterday epitomized my challenges.  I played three matches in Tashkent with a WTR of 1900 and all were losses.  It doesn't matter if I'm sinking ships and doing damage (when I am able to do so, which admittedly is challenging at times).  While those things are fun, I'm not doing it in such a way that enables the team to win.  I surmised that the blended cruiser and DD style play is eluding my clear understanding.  It is noteworthy that I had precisely the same challenge in Duca d'Aosta.  Racing around the map dealing damage, getting kills and not winning.  On the other hand, I can pull wins fairly consistently with Leander (with better detection than Tash, now that I think about it...) and USN DD.  I need to get back in the groove with IJN, so nothing to add on that at the moment.  I pick these as examples because they share the "low alpha," get damage in over time style of game play.  It's pretty clear to me that for the most part I am uselessly farming damage and not helping my team at all...and not evening doing a good job of that.
 
Today I saw a chap sailing his Khaba literally win two matches for his teams (one for, one against).  I know they CAN be hugely influential ships...
 
General ideas:
I usually try to present myself on a flank if at all possible.  The detection on VMF DD is lousy, so I try to force the enemy to make a choice between traversing their guns off the fleet to shoot at me or keeping their guns on the fleet and taking a pounding.  With AFT and upgraded fire control, the 15.5 km of range or so is pretty absurd and provides a lot of flexibility for dealing damage.  The individual volleys seem fairly consistent, if low in over damage.  Starting fires is nowhere near as consistent as I'd like.  I still don't think I've earned even one "Witherer" achievement.   
 
I prefer not to smoke camp - getting shot as is part of the game, I think.  However, there are times when it seems appropriate.  

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How to win in russian DDs.

Step 1. Hit "battle" button.

Step 2. Set speed to max

Step 3. Left click at enemy until they are dead.

Step 5. Shift rudder when enemy returns fire.

Step eleventy. Congrats, you've won.

  • Cool 2

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How to win in russian DDs.

Step 1. Hit "battle" button.

Step 2. Set speed to max

Step 3. Left click at enemy until they are dead.

Step 5. Shift rudder when enemy returns fire.

Step eleventy. Congrats, you've won.

Pretty much this :D

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For a short list of steps, I seem fairly terrible at it.  Unfortunate that.

 

Dear Issm - while I can appreciate they are not large sample sizes, our interpretation differs.  However, I thank you for taking the time to provide your input.

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How to win in russian DDs.

Step 1. Hit "battle" button.

Step 2. Set speed to max

Step 3. Left click at enemy until they are dead.

Step 5. Shift rudder when enemy returns fire.

Step eleventy. Congrats, you've won.

 

yup I second (THird apparently) this notion...

 

 

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The trick to winning in Soviet DDs is to annoy the enemy enough they focus on you rather than going for the objectives.  You help your team by taking pressure off them.  You also contribute by doing a lot of damage, but you want to be a thorn in the enemies side all the time. 

 

As a rule of thumb.....if you're not firing your guns you're out of position, if you're not being shot at you're too far away and if you're getting hit too much by their return fire you're probably too close.

Edited by yashma
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For a short list of steps, I seem fairly terrible at it.  Unfortunate that.

 

Dear Issm - while I can appreciate they are not large sample sizes, our interpretation differs.  However, I thank you for taking the time to provide your input.

 

Mahrs, can we get a better idea of your play style? Maybe a replay? I assume you're already fighting from near maximum gunrange, yes?

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How to win in russian DDs.

Step 1. Hit "battle" button.

Step 2. Set speed to max

Step 3. Left click at enemy until they are dead.

Step 5. Shift rudder when enemy returns fire.

Step eleventy. Congrats, you've won.

 

Instructions unclear; hand stuck in disk drive.
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Couple of things noticed while playing the T9 Tashkent:

-EM is needed

-staying at 15 км is not needed

 

Be a support to your DDs and try to help them take out enemy DDs early. After that play accordingly.

You hit 30% of your shots which is low even by my standards and I spam smokes and Cyclone modes non stop. Having great range and good ROF is no excuse to mindlessly throw shells down range at a ship, work on your aim.

 

I personally power-grinded through Tashkent in 2 days and sold that fat cow immediately after unlocking the Khabarovsk.

 

 

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How to win in a Russian destroyer, in 2 easy steps:

 

1: Start shooting

2: Don't stop

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Honestly I'd recommend going back and playing tier 8. Jumping from tier 7 Russian DD play up to tier 9 with the recquisite change in meta is rough. Tier 8 Kiev is a beast and worth playing even if you're not grinding anywhere.

 

Tash was a more difficult ship even when she (I suppose if it's a Russian ship it's a he?) was tier 8.

 

I would say play Tashkent like you're afraid of everyone else. Keep them all at arms length. Run, gun, wiggle, and flank. Forget capping contested caps, especially early.

 

Play like a gang of drunk teenage hooligans throwing rocks through people's windows and running from the cops.

Edited by urk_the_red

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The new Ognevoi is just, ugh. I sold her a few days ago and will start re grinding her later, due to me wanting Udaloi. 

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gun down red DDs, obviously.

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The new Ognevoi is just, ugh. I sold her a few days ago and will start re grinding her later, due to me wanting Udaloi. 

 

I know it doesn't fit with the Russian DD meta, but did you try running a concealment build? 10km torps with ~6km ship detection. 

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The way I see it, Russian DDs essentially fill the role that cruisers...can't really fill all that effectively.

 

Support fire against enemy DDs in the early game is probably one of the better things you can do with them. Once you've thinned out the enemy team a bit, I pretty much say it's time to go berserk with the guns against anything in range. Start setting fires, doing damage, and generally being an annoying PoS.

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I'll see about getting a replay up. I should have thought of that earlier. Style? Confusion. That's my style, it seems.

 

I really had to grit my teeth through Kiev at tier VII. The reason I never bought or played Tashkent pre-split is because Kiev sapped my will to play a ship widely regarded as worse. That bitter taste remains - I played a handful of games in Kiev at tier VIII and said "F this noise, I'm out." 

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Honestly I'd recommend going back and playing tier 8. Jumping from tier 7 Russian DD play up to tier 9 with the recquisite change in meta is rough. Tier 8 Kiev is a beast and worth playing even if you're not grinding anywhere.

 

Tash was a more difficult ship even when she (I suppose if it's a Russian ship it's a he?) was tier 8.

 

I would say play Tashkent like you're afraid of everyone else. Keep them all at arms length. Run, gun, wiggle, and flank. Forget capping contested caps, especially early.

 

Play like a gang of drunk teenage hooligans throwing rocks through people's windows and running from the cops.

 

Actually, I was thinking of doing this with the Kiev because I am having same problem as the OP, so this is a good suggestion. Udaloi was one long frustration, I can't Khab worth a damn. Groz suits my playstyle because it is not a Russky DD, but a Russky DD pretending hard to be a stealth torp boat. If it had better torp reload times it would be a really good ship. I ignored Tash because I didn't want another frustrating experience in high tier russky gunboats.

 

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kiev, udaloi, tash and khab are gunboat with usable torps.   I use torps mostly for smoke clearing though.   biggest is supporting your team DD by acting as target and fire support.     give your stealthier DD a chance to  spot initially or act as surprise attack.       it gets tough when you have to cap.   just the way it is.    Otherwise, you are also run and gun a lot.    get behind enemy line if you can.   cause mayhem .

 

at least that is what I try to do. 

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I eventually got around to using a tin can and string to upload two videos.  While both are wins, I feel they are fair representations of how much I struggle to contribute in these ships.  Both wins had nothing to do with my personal play, I am confident.  Bonus for hitting things, etc.  These maps are great too, because I generally have no flipping idea what to do on these maps, to say nothing of what to do in a ship I don't know how to sail.

 

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I eventually got around to using a tin can and string to upload two videos.  While both are wins, I feel they are fair representations of how much I struggle to contribute in these ships.  Both wins had nothing to do with my personal play, I am confident.  Bonus for hitting things, etc.  These maps are great too, because I generally have no flipping idea what to do on these maps, to say nothing of what to do in a ship I don't know how to sail.

 

 

Game one: You drove the enemy DD away from "C" cap, helped Mahan kill the Fletcher at "B" (Mahan would have died if it wasn't for you), then capped "C" and "D" yourself, killed the enemy DD. Despite the not so high damage count you secured 3 caps for your team. If you opted for "A" instead you would have farmed much more damage since Tashkent loves open waters.

 

Game two: 82k dmg, 2 assisted captures, 1 kill etc. You provided smoke and held your fire when needed. A game played right.

 

 

I notice a couple of things I believe you could execute better:

 

-Given that you rush caps early, popping your engine boost at the first second of the match is a very good idea.

-You didn't use smoke for yourself even once in those 2 games. I mean offensive smoke. For example in the second game you could have held your fire not to scare Tirpitz and Bismarck, get closer (10km) to them then smoke and open fire. They will either flee and you farm easy damage on them or try to rush your smoke and eat torps. You can switch smoke for a heal and try that. Keep in mind that Khabarovsk has only 13.5 km range fully upgraded and trying to shoot from smoke will very often lead to your target turning away and quickly leaving your range.

-shot placement is important since your HE shell does respectable dmg. In the second game when you engaged the Izumo your shells kept shattering on his front turrets, all 26 of them. Keep an eye on the detailed ribbons and re-aim for the superstructure if you notice most of your shells shattering.

 

All in all I think you are doing good with Tashkent.

Edited by m373x

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smoke firing has to be done very carefullly at high tier.     I usually wait till second half of the match to use offensive smoke firing.     I also sometimes use it while DD fighting, but rarely needed since I can kill most other DDS.  lot of times, you can semi ambush smoke fire by using island cover to get closer.

 

I don't rush caps,  I  tend to go with stealthier DD  or if I do solo, I will skirt cap until either I am spotted or cap start to turn.   Torps as area denial can be very useful to get random hits.  I use engine boost if I get shot at close range and need to open up the range. 

 

My favorite tactics with khab is to get behind enemy line.   I get lot of free fire since they want to face the BBs.     just lot of fun 

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I haven't been playing my RU DDs in awhile and this thread makes me want to play them again.

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Honestly I'd recommend going back and playing tier 8. Jumping from tier 7 Russian DD play up to tier 9 with the recquisite change in meta is rough. Tier 8 Kiev is a beast and worth playing even if you're not grinding anywhere.

 

Tash was a more difficult ship even when she (I suppose if it's a Russian ship it's a he?) was tier 8.

 

I would say play Tashkent like you're afraid of everyone else. Keep them all at arms length. Run, gun, wiggle, and flank. Forget capping contested caps, especially early.

 

Play like a gang of drunk teenage hooligans throwing rocks through people's windows and running from the cops.

 

 

Actually, I was thinking of doing this with the Kiev because I am having same problem as the OP, so this is a good suggestion. Udaloi was one long frustration, I can't Khab worth a damn. Groz suits my playstyle because it is not a Russky DD, but a Russky DD pretending hard to be a stealth torp boat. If it had better torp reload times it would be a really good ship. I ignored Tash because I didn't want another frustrating experience in high tier russky gunboats.

 

 

ignoring caps in VMF DD's is so wrong.

 

You have to be selective about what caps you engage on, but you are still essential to cap control. Just not in the stealthy ninja way that USN and IJN DDs are.

 

You control caps by bullying anybody and everybody off of them.

 

If you pick a cap with 75% of the enemy on it, you will probably fail. You can still make a huge impact on the game here, but you will not be immediately contesting the cap. What you do here, is, stop the enemy advance and farm damage to wear them down over time. Focus on ships that fire will stick on and easy targets to pick off. Not necessarilythe ones with the biggest hp pools.

 

If you pick a cap with three or 4 enemies in it, you can just bully them right off of it and claim it as your own.

 

This is how I play them.

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