6.4 Public Test Secondaries broken at close range

[eVa_Refuel]

So i've posted this in the public test bug forum a few days ago and got no traction or any views really and it appears to be somewhat major issue with the 6.4 PT so I wanted to place it here for some higher exposure.  Since i've never worked too far into German BB's I've always wanted to try a secondary Bismarck so in the public test that was the first ship I setup and man I was surprised when the secondaries continuously missed DDs at 5k over hundreds of shells.  Basically secondaries at ranges less than 4k are habitually falling very short of their targets compared to the current release version.  Before you all ask i've tried this on the PT server on the Bismarck, Amagi, and Norcal each with the secondary (+20% range/dispersion) mod along with AFT, BFT, and manual secondary captain skills.  The secondaries will hit like they always have at ranges more than 4 or 5k but at a closer distance it's downright laughable and after watching these samples I hope that all of you can see that there is an issue too.

 

I setup a training room and here is some video proof for you guys with stationary ships. Amagi vs T10 KM DD.  First is the current production version.  The secondaries complete the kill in 25 seconds with 38 secondary hits in that time frame.

 

Next is the same identical setup in the new 6.4 public test and it took more than two and a half minutes for the kill.  Now keep in mind these ships aren't moving so consider how much worse this would be against actual moving targets that are bobbing and weaving.

 

 

Here's some Bismarck action and notice how few hits happen to the close ships but when switching to the DD at 6k it gets lit up like we all come to expect.  You'd think that shooting against the G Kurfurst being the biggest ship would yield a few more hits than what is shown. 

 

 

So far in posting this issue i've had other forum people try to "educate" me saying that secondaries have always been like this or told how to play the game and not get 2k away from a DD but this is a mechanics issue that is clearly broken with the 6.4 Public Test.  Personally if you are spending so many captain points on manual secondaries it should yield some better results than this.  Imagine getting ambushed by a DD around a corner and your secondaries do nothing but make pretty little water splashes.  This problem is almost to the point where if an enemy has camo and the concealment mod, the dispersion may actually allow more secondary hits to happen than without.  Let me know what you think and voice your opinion.  Again I hate to post this again but I was getting nowhere in a subforum so few people read.

[MJPIA]

Secondaries used to target the middle of the ship just below the waterline a year or so ago before they adjusted it to above the waterline.

At longer ranges it didn't matter as much with dispersion but it gets very noticeable as you get closer.

It kinda looks like its aiming below the waterline again.

 

[Kitsunelegend]

I can see a clear difference in the live version and the PT version. Good catch OP! Hope this gets looked at before the patch goes live, this would suck being brought over to the live server.

 

One question however...would you be able to test this same thing again on the PTS, but vs a BB of the same tier? I'm curious to see if maybe its an issue with how the secondaries target the ship and judge its range based on the size of the ship...

[eVa_Refuel]

I can see a clear difference in the live version and the PT version. Good catch OP! Hope this gets looked at before the patch goes live, this would suck being brought over to the live server.

 

One question however...would you be able to test this same thing again on the PTS, but vs a BB of the same tier? I'm curious to see if maybe its an issue with how the secondaries target the ship and judge its range based on the size of the ship...

 

I tested it many times now against all ship classes (bb/ca/dd/cv) and all tiers 5-10.  Ships with high citadels, low citadels, the works.  Same issue on all ships.  With the 6.4 PT, you will actually get more secondary hits when they are bow or stern on than when broadsided.

[Shadowrigger1]

Stealth Tweaks.   Oops. they screwed something up.

[CapnCappy]

Excellent work and very good videos.

 

But you don't understand your role in the public test server. You're not there to test anything. You're just there to mess around and provide back-of-house data for WG. - per Super testers, Lert and LittleWhileMouse

 

All bugs and issues have already been caught. So, this can't be a bug. It's a feature.

 

[SeaborneSumo]

Perhaps this is just a quiet nerf to BB secondaries.  Hopefully its just a mistake they correct.

[Reymu]

Who'd stay that close to a red BB in the first place?

 

Don't think it matters much. Hardly anyone wants to snuggle there next to big guns.

 

Though considering the lower aim, maybe that's because WG assumes the enemy ship is charging you? Or you are charging him?

[eVa_Refuel]

I guess if there is any positive to this its the fact that WoWs can be a waveform visualizer now.

 

[RightYouAreKen]

Good catch OP.  Hopefully they fix it.  There pretty clearly has been a change based on your testing.

[Kanzler_Bismarck]

Well... this is dumb... imagine how much more useless non speced BBs will be.

[ValkyrWarframe]

Drunk gunners just got more drunk.

[awildseaking]

I actually don't mind this. If you're getting ambushed by a DD at those ranges at high tiers, you really screwed up. You already have incredibly accurate guns that can delete a full health DD in a single volley as well.

[GAME4WAR]

After eliminating "Stealth fire" completely from the game which was extremely controversial and unneeded, if they were to nerf secondaries i think that might be reason for many (including myself) to rage quit the game. WG don't be this brave or dumb to try to get this past us.

[XenomorphZZ]

Is this from the second PTS? I played the first round in secondary spec'd Biscuit and axed murdered things with the secondaries.

[Falls_USMC]

Hopefully this is actually a bug and not a deliberate nerf. Manual secondaries should be very powerful at close range. Good catch, OP and thank you for trying to increase the visibility on this. 

[eVa_Refuel]

Is this from the second PTS? I played the first round in secondary spec'd Biscuit and axed murdered things with the secondaries.

 

Yes it is from round two PTS.  I didn't try any secondary builds in round one so I'm not sure if this is something specific to the 2nd round or if it was there for the first round.

[CybrSlydr]

Great catch - just what we need, even worse secondaries.

[mattergrey]

I played Bismarck for the first time on PTS #2, and was very underwhelmed.  Did not match my experience on the other side at all.  I thought it might have been because it always seems worse on the other side, but I'm glad that someone caught this.

[admiral_noone]

Seems secondaries AI has gone back to trying to land shots directly on the citadel, which causes shells to dive below waterline at close ranges. What code has WG fudged this time? Can we even datamine secondaries AI to show it back to WG? Seems like a quick fix doable with a quick glance.

[Vaporisor]

I wonder how the guns react to moving ships.  Not saying it is a nerf, but maybe it has to do with ai leadinf secondary shots.  The zero motion putting a numerical error in for that lead?  Can you try again but say have something slow, give it 1/4 velocity sail by at thst range?

[TheKrimzonDemon]

After eliminating "Stealth fire" completely from the game which was extremely controversial and unneeded, if they were to nerf secondaries i think that might be reason for many (including myself) to rage quit the game. WG don't be this brave or dumb to try to get this past us.

 

While I do agree, like a lot of us, I feel BBabies are due for a nerf of their own, since they've done so much damage to the rest of us.

[Francois424]

 

While I do agree, like a lot of us, I feel BBabies are due for a nerf of their own, since they've done so much damage to the rest of us.

 

Then secondaries aren't what you should be targeting they suck a lot already, especially at tiers 2-3-4-5 where I have successfully trolled a BB by remaning 2.0 km from him for 4 MNINUTES and wasn't sunk as a DD.

That garbage should not happen.

 

 

But nerf BBs, and it will become world of cruisers real quick.  Doubt me?  Look at what that did to world of tanks.   Nobody played Heavies for the longest of times because of stupid nerfs.

Btw:  I don't care (much). if BB would disappear I'd find something else to play the game with.    Secondaries are the one thing that should get buffed at lower tiers, and normalized (range-wise) from tier 6+.

 

[eVa_Refuel]

So i've been doing quite a few more testing rounds and discovered that this issue is only with certain ships.  Since the public test doesn't let you research t7s or lower without their typical cost unlike the t9-10 having a discount, i can't do any testing on lower tiered BB's or premiums on PT.   So far here is what i've got,

 

These ships have the secondary issue:  Amagi, Norcal, Bismarck, Montana.  All of these ships will miss 95% of secondaries at less then 3k unless ship is bow/aft on.
 

These ships have no issue with their secondaries and hit reliably at any range: Izumo, Yamato

 

The Iowa, F der Gross, and Kurfurst secondaries hit somewhat more often at closer ranges and hit a fair amount more than the terribly broken Amagi, Bismarck, Norcal, and Montana but not by much.  Given that all of the ships with the problems have a low freeboard I believe that this may have something to do with this new problem.  The Izumo and Yamato connect reliably regardless of range perhaps because their secondaries are so high out of the water.  Out of all of the ships with problems the Bismarck seems to be the worst which really struggles to hit at all. 

 

[admiral_noone]

So i've been doing quite a few more testing rounds and discovered that this issue is only with certain ships.  Since the public test doesn't let you research t7s or lower without their typical cost unlike the t9-10 having a discount, i can't do any testing on lower tiered BB's or premiums on PT.   So far here is what i've got,

 

These ships have the secondary issue:  Amagi, Norcal, Bismarck, Montana.  All of these ships will miss 95% of secondaries at less then 3k unless ship is bow/aft on.

 

These ships have no issue with their secondaries and hit reliably at any range: Izumo, Yamato

 

The Iowa, F der Gross, and Kurfurst secondaries hit somewhat more often at closer ranges and hit a fair amount more than the terribly broken Amagi, Bismarck, Norcal, and Montana but not by much.  Given that all of the ships with the problems have a low freeboard I believe that this may have something to do with this new problem.  The Izumo and Yamato connect reliably regardless of range perhaps because their secondaries are so high out of the water.  Out of all of the ships with problems the Bismarck seems to be the worst which really struggles to hit at all. 

 

 

Sub may be burned out by the Clash of the Elements drama, but as long as he can see this post....

 

Also, have you tested the upper dispersion with auto secondaries?