Idle thoughts on WoWs vs WoT and carry boats

[DingBat]

 

A thought struck me a while ago about some of the more subtle differences between WoWs and WoT and some of the implications for WoWs players. 

 

WoT gameplay is largely about choke points. Most of WG map design philosophy was about building maps around the idea of limited axis of advance and choke points. Given this, and the power of tank destroyers with camouflage, at some point in most battles you're going to need a heavy tank. Let's ignore random player for a minute and just focus on more structured play, like clam wars. Most strategies on maps with choke points involved heavy tanks moving to contact at the choke point, a period where teams tried to get an upper hand, then perhaps an eventual break out by mediums to swamp the enemy. 

 

My point is, on these kinds of maps, heavy tanks were kind of the "carry" tank. They might not always get the most kills, but they were essential and their use frequently decided the outcome of the battle. 

 

On more open maps, like Highway (ugh), medium/main battle tanks were the "carry" tank, for their ability to flex. 

 

Carrying in a tank destroyer or artillery or light tank is certainly possible, but a lot less likely. You may violently disagree at this point, but I'm going to continue on that premise. 

 

Now, take a look at WoWs. The thought that struck me the other day was that (as a player that's finally starting to feel comfortable): I don't really consider battleships "carry" boats in this game. 

 

Why? Well, definitely at lower tiers the problem is speed. Most of the BB's just don't have the speed to guarantee that they'll be able to influence the late game, where a lot of matches are won. This changes at higher tiers, but is it enough to consider them carry boats? 

 

The other factor is visibility. In WoT, the only vehicles that really relied on abusing visibility were tank destroyers, light tanks, and mediums. Tank destroyers tend to be a passive role and, as such, not really the vehicle you rely on to carry. Sure, they can break the back of an enemy assault, but the fight has to come to them more often than not. Light tanks and mediums can definitely carry, but WGs tendency to remove cover and the map design philosophy can make this a hit or miss prospect. 

 

In my experience, carrying depends on flexing. Flexing depends on movement. In WoT, the differences in speed between heavy and light/medium tanks is significant, especially considering terrain. Some heavy tanks are many times slower than a light or medium. In WoWs, the difference in speed is less significant. There's no terrain factor. A 35 knot destroyer does not have THAT much of a speed advantage over a 28 knot battleship. 

 

And here's the final point in my argument: In WoT flexing depends on speed. In WoWs, flexing depends on concealment. 

 

In WoWs, who makes the heaviest use of concealment?

 

In my opinion, the carry boats in WoWs are destroyers, not battleships. Ok, even if you follow my reasoning and agree, so what? In WoT, there was the "cult" of the heavy tank and, in many ways, it's the same as the cult of the battleship. Big. Armored. Hard hitting. And popular. Heavy tanks and battleships capture the imagination of players. In many cases it's the first thing players want to try. "I want to get in a tank and stomp around smashing face". In WoT, that desire and the "carry vehicle" align. In WoWs, I'm not so sure. 

 

Could that be part of the never-ending war of words between battleship mains and destroyer mains? I think it's part of it.

 

Anyway, some idle thoughts. I think there's some validity to this, but I'm also wrong frequently enough to keep an open mind. I'm not sure if any of these points are useful, or if I'm just late to a party that everyone else already recognizes, but there it is. Thoughts?

 

tl;dr: Carry tanks in WoT are heavies. Carry boats in WoWs are destroyers. When new players think boats they think battleships. Possible conflict and source of friction?

[CaptainKaitoGhost]

In my experience, the best tanks to carry with were Mediums, because of their flexibility.  A well played Pershing or Object 140 could turn a loss into a win with their ability to relocate and decent firepower.

[Admiral_Franz_von_Hipper]

I think that in WoWS any class can carry due to the many different scenarios that can occur. For me, I find that I can carry the most in CVs.

[Lonewolfpj]

I think that in WoWS any class can carry due to the many different scenarios that can occur. For me, I find that I can carry the most in CVs.

 

yeah I agree with this. Any class of ship can carry a game. 

[Spyde]

30 Knot Battleships are slow ?

 

 

[StingRayOne]

WOW, not WOWs, but WOW

first of all carry is a term used by players who feel unrewarded for what they do in a battle. A carry player thinks he controlled the outcome and deserves a trophy or something. WOWs is a team game, I have had games where I did not sink a ship or capture a point and did 4000 damage and received 2000 exp, because I spotted, and helped screen, shot torps and never hit a ship but it turned and some else sunk it. The point being I have other games and killed 4 ships did 20,000 + of damage and screened and shot down planes.

I did not do anything different. I did not Carry the team, I was simply doing my part of being a team.

[GrandAdmiral_2016]

30 Knot Battleships are slow ?

 

 

 

Compared to a 40-knot Bylskawica, they are! Plus Bylskawica has a good hard stop, smoke and decent torps to make it tougher on the opposition. If you think it is bad now, wait until the French contre-torpilleurs DDs come out! Faster yet!

[pewpewpew42]

WOW, not WOWs, but WOW

first of all carry is a term used by players who feel unrewarded for what they do in a battle. A carry player thinks he controlled the outcome and deserves a trophy or something. WOWs is a team game, I have had games where I did not sink a ship or capture a point and did 4000 damage and received 2000 exp, because I spotted, and helped screen, shot torps and never hit a ship but it turned and some else sunk it. The point being I have other games and killed 4 ships did 20,000 + of damage and screened and shot down planes.

I did not do anything different. I did not Carry the team, I was simply doing my part of being a team.

 

I think you meant 'carrier mains'. Honestly, the rewards are pitiful for the damage and spotting CVs do.

[Estimated_Prophet]

tl;dr: Carry tanks in WoT are heavies. Carry boats in WoWs are destroyers. When new players think boats they think battleships. Possible conflict and source of friction?

 

In my (admittedly limited) experience, it is the long 'time-in-game' player with the max-stealthed vehicle and multi-skilled crews, who slaughters everything and carries the most. What anyone else uses is meaningless. They can hope and flail and think they're doing something; but it all pales and is pointless, futile effort in the face of seal-clubbing stat padders.

 

In my experience, the best tanks to carry with were Mediums, because of their flexibility.  A well played Pershing or Object 140 could turn a loss into a win with their ability to relocate and decent firepower.

 

See above. At least WoWs tends to be more skill-based, and less what is plugged into a ship. I started my Colorado with a zero point captain on a dare; and have done perfectly well in it.

 

I think that in WoWS any class can carry due to the many different scenarios that can occur. For me, I find that I can carry the most in CVs.

 

I have had very few carries in a CV, pretty much due to my lack of subtlety driving CVs; Cruisers are whatever; most of my carries have been in destroyers or battleships.

[Thornir]

I think you're right, OP, at least as far as WoWs is concerned. A stealthy destroyer can hold an entire flank by itself, and be on the other side of the map before people realize it's gone. 

[Captain_Dorja]

WOW, not WOWs, but WOW

first of all carry is a term used by players who feel unrewarded for what they do in a battle. A carry player thinks he controlled the outcome and deserves a trophy or something. WOWs is a team game, I have had games where I did not sink a ship or capture a point and did 4000 damage and received 2000 exp, because I spotted, and helped screen, shot torps and never hit a ship but it turned and some else sunk it. The point being I have other games and killed 4 ships did 20,000 + of damage and screened and shot down planes.

I did not do anything different. I did not Carry the team, I was simply doing my part of being a team.

 

You're using two different meaning of the same word. You're referring to a player who carries, as in someone who contributes a disproportionately large amount towards winning, thus having been crucial to victory. The OP is referring to a ship that carries, more like the way the term is used in League of Legends where certain heroes are referred to as "The Carry." Both in LoL and in the OP's making, "The Carry" is the decisive weapon which,when fielded in the right time and place,  propels a team to win large engagements. Another term for this would be the phrase "arm of decision," as in the weapon which is relied upon to decide the outcome of a battle. In ancient Rome ,that would be heavy infantry. In Norman England, heavy cavalry. In the 100 years war, English longbowmem.

 

The point of the OP is that destroyers are very often the arm of decision, aka the carry, in WOWS. This is nothing new. DDs are the controllers of objectives. They gather the most Intel. They can fight effectively against many targets. They can disengage easily to stay alive, and they have the speed, agility, and stealth required to redeploy quickly to the critical area. This ability add 2 the carry class in WOWS is the main reason why DDs can be repeatedly nerfed, but still remain very popular, and remain the most important ships in competitive modes. As long as that ability remains, DDs will be the most influential and powerful class in game, no matter how nerfed they might be. 

[m373x]

WOW, not WOWs, but WOW

first of all carry is a term used by players who feel unrewarded for what they do in a battle. A carry player thinks he controlled the outcome and deserves a trophy or something. WOWs is a team game, I have had games where I did not sink a ship or capture a point and did 4000 damage and received 2000 exp, because I spotted, and helped screen, shot torps and never hit a ship but it turned and some else sunk it. The point being I have other games and killed 4 ships did 20,000 + of damage and screened and shot down planes.

I did not do anything different. I did not Carry the team, I was simply doing my part of being a team.

 

"Carry" is a term used worldwide by commentators, analysts and so on. A basketball player can carry his team to victory. Of course you refuse to accept that term because you are a godsend to this game. Keep on rolling.

[SnowDriftTurtle]

Medium tanks are by far and wide much better of a choice to carry than a heavy. And in clans matches are often decided by how the mediums perform. Movement, view range, DPM, accuracy often all go to the medium in exchange for health and armor...which is useless due to premium ammo and well placed shots. 

In WOWS, any class can carry reliably.  

[_Fantomex_]

Most of my "carries" have been in self-sufficient ships; ships that can essentially be their own support without the need for a team member.

 

So for me, that includes all British CL's, Kutuzov, most DD's, and CV's.

 

British CL's and Kutuzov: Being able to lay your own smoke is invaluable; of course, you still need someone to spot for you. Furthermore, especially with tier 8-10 RN CL's, their torpedoes are on par with that of equal tier DD's, allowing you to adopt the play styles of both DD's and CL's. Less so, but still applicable to the Kutuzov.

 

Carries are obvious, especially when top tier. Being able to strike virtually any opponent (especially late game with damaged AA) without risking your own ship is unparalleled. You can be your own scout, your own DD hunter, your own alpha strike, your own AA defense. And you can even cap quite quickly if needed, as most CV's are quite a bit faster than a BB, and in the case of the IJN, you even have better concealment than some CA's. Not to mention your large HP pool that can be used for some minor tanking.

[DingBat]

WOW, not WOWs, but WOW

first of all carry is a term used by players who feel unrewarded for what they do in a battle. A carry player thinks he controlled the outcome and deserves a trophy or something. WOWs is a team game, I have had games where I did not sink a ship or capture a point and did 4000 damage and received 2000 exp, because I spotted, and helped screen, shot torps and never hit a ship but it turned and some else sunk it. The point being I have other games and killed 4 ships did 20,000 + of damage and screened and shot down planes.

I did not do anything different. I did not Carry the team, I was simply doing my part of being a team.

 

I have to respectfully disagree with your argument here. First, I never linked carrying with kills, as you appear to be doing. Second, there are such a thing as carry level play. It does not have to involve kills. All that is required is play above and beyond. 

 

I also have to point out that "carrying" and team play are not mutually exclusive. Wayne Gretzky carried his team many times. I don't think anyone would ever accuse him of not being a team player. And you don't have to be a superstar to carry, either. 

 

Oh, and WoW is a different game. This game is WoWs. You want to call it WoW, make your own post.

[Skpstr]

 

yeah I agree with this. Any class of ship can carry a game. 

 

I agree, with the qualifier that I believe a DD is the best carry boat in the hands of a skilled player.

 

Not that I carry often, but I have done it in a cruiser, more often in a battleship, but I lack the skill to do it in a DD.

 

The need to be able to flex in a BB is one of the reasons I don't tend to brawl often, or go around near the map edge.

[DingBat]

Medium tanks are by far and wide much better of a choice to carry than a heavy. And in clans matches are often decided by how the mediums perform. Movement, view range, DPM, accuracy often all go to the medium in exchange for health and armor...which is useless due to premium ammo and well placed shots. 

 

In WOWS, any class can carry reliably.  

 

Yeah, I struggled with the idea that heavies or mediums carry more in WoT. I think it depends on the map and the clan, but I concede your point. 

 

I'm not so sure about the argument that all classes in WoWs can carry with the same regularity. I think cruisers and CVs have some inherent disadvantages such that carry opportunities may not present themselves as frequently as destroyers. Again, I'm open to counter-arguments.

[Skpstr]

I agree that cruisers are the hardest ships (won't comment on CVs since I don't play them) to carry with. The exceedingly rare time I do, killing DDs is the backbone. Doing so makes the rest of my team breathe easier, and allows me more leeway to move in and cap. Of course, this assumes that my friendly DDs are not themselves up to carrying.

[BrassFire]

In my experience, the best tanks to carry with were Mediums, because of their flexibility.  A well played Pershing or Object 140 could turn a loss into a win with their ability to relocate and decent firepower.

 

This.

 

 

A thought struck me a while ago about some of the more subtle differences between WoWs and WoT and some of the implications for WoWs players. 

 

WoT gameplay is largely about choke points. Most of WG map design philosophy was about building maps around the idea of limited axis of advance and choke points. Given this, and the power of tank destroyers with camouflage, at some point in most battles you're going to need a heavy tank. Let's ignore random player for a minute and just focus on more structured play, like clam wars. Most strategies on maps with choke points involved heavy tanks moving to contact at the choke point, a period where teams tried to get an upper hand, then perhaps an eventual break out by mediums to swamp the enemy. 

 

My point is, on these kinds of maps, heavy tanks were kind of the "carry" tank. They might not always get the most kills, but they were essential and their use frequently decided the outcome of the battle. 

 

On more open maps, like Highway (ugh), medium/main battle tanks were the "carry" tank, for their ability to flex. 

 

Carrying in a tank destroyer or artillery or light tank is certainly possible, but a lot less likely. You may violently disagree at this point, but I'm going to continue on that premise. 

 

Now, take a look at WoWs. The thought that struck me the other day was that (as a player that's finally starting to feel comfortable): I don't really consider battleships "carry" boats in this game. 

 

Why? Well, definitely at lower tiers the problem is speed. Most of the BB's just don't have the speed to guarantee that they'll be able to influence the late game, where a lot of matches are won. This changes at higher tiers, but is it enough to consider them carry boats? 

 

The other factor is visibility. In WoT, the only vehicles that really relied on abusing visibility were tank destroyers, light tanks, and mediums. Tank destroyers tend to be a passive role and, as such, not really the vehicle you rely on to carry. Sure, they can break the back of an enemy assault, but the fight has to come to them more often than not. Light tanks and mediums can definitely carry, but WGs tendency to remove cover and the map design philosophy can make this a hit or miss prospect. 

 

In my experience, carrying depends on flexing. Flexing depends on movement. In WoT, the differences in speed between heavy and light/medium tanks is significant, especially considering terrain. Some heavy tanks are many times slower than a light or medium. In WoWs, the difference in speed is less significant. There's no terrain factor. A 35 knot destroyer does not have THAT much of a speed advantage over a 28 knot battleship. 

 

And here's the final point in my argument: In WoT flexing depends on speed. In WoWs, flexing depends on concealment. 

 

In WoWs, who makes the heaviest use of concealment?

 

In my opinion, the carry boats in WoWs are destroyers, not battleships. Ok, even if you follow my reasoning and agree, so what? In WoT, there was the "cult" of the heavy tank and, in many ways, it's the same as the cult of the battleship. Big. Armored. Hard hitting. And popular. Heavy tanks and battleships capture the imagination of players. In many cases it's the first thing players want to try. "I want to get in a tank and stomp around smashing face". In WoT, that desire and the "carry vehicle" align. In WoWs, I'm not so sure. 

 

Could that be part of the never-ending war of words between battleship mains and destroyer mains? I think it's part of it.

 

Anyway, some idle thoughts. I think there's some validity to this, but I'm also wrong frequently enough to keep an open mind. I'm not sure if any of these points are useful, or if I'm just late to a party that everyone else already recognizes, but there it is. Thoughts?

 

tl;dr: Carry tanks in WoT are heavies. Carry boats in WoWs are destroyers. When new players think boats they think battleships. Possible conflict and source of friction?

 

You forgot the part where arty instakills anyone who dares to play actively.

[DingBat]

You forgot the part where arty instakills anyone who dares to play actively.

 

I think we can all agree that WoWs is better for not having this type of unit in the game. 

 

In fairness, I have to note the likely outrage of cruiser players who hate being deleted by battleships, or those who believe detonations are not as "fun and engaging" as was promised.

[BrassFire]

 

I think we can all agree that WoWs is better for not having this type of unit in the game. 

 

In fairness, I have to note the likely outrage of cruiser players who hate being deleted by battleships, or those who believe detonations are not as "fun and engaging" as was promised.

 

Yeah. At least the deletions and dets are rare occurrences or happen because somebody aimed well. Arty is pure RNG, and carriers- our equivalent to arty- can be countered, avoided, and taken out. They also can't suicide.

[pmgaudio]

 

"Carry" is a term used worldwide by commentators, analysts and so on. A basketball player can carry his team to victory. Of course you refuse to accept that term because you are a godsend to this game. Keep on rolling.

 

it is against to rules to make fun of mention in a demeaning way, or point out someones stats....so I will just go ahead and say that I found some of the things you said, comical.,....

 

 I will clarify that this is not sarcasm or  a "Dig" at you... you are blue.....I think you get it though...

 

[Wulfgarn]

If spotting, intel, etc. were counted, myself and many others would be Umi..

[pmgaudio]

hehehehehe.. CLAM wars......

 

[m373x]

 

it is against to rules to make fun of mention in a demeaning way, or point out someones stats....so I will just go ahead and say that I found some of the things you said, comical.,....

 

 I will clarify that this is not sarcasm or  a "Dig" at you... you are blue.....I think you get it though...

 

 

I couldn't understand what you mean unfortunately. Care to elaborate?