Co-Op Review?

[_WaveRider_]

To the developers: Would it be possible to review the AI priorities in Co-Op?

 

I play DDs main and find learning a new line/ship in Co-Op a benefit as the AI always punished DDs who revealed themselves (good practice!). However I am now finding that they will completely ignore 2-3 ships that are closer (CAs or even BBs), in order to fire at a DD. I mean literally between us lol.

 

Where I am still managing to survive and possibly even benefit from the hard lesson and so much attention, I do not feel it is a useful balance. Thank you.

[m373x]

In PvP people prioritize firing at DDs as well since DDs are generally the best class to go after objectives thus enhancing a team's chance of winning so it makes sense that bots prioritize DDs as well. Co-op has much bigger problems that this.

[_WaveRider_]

In PvP people prioritize firing at DDs as well since DDs are generally the best class to go after objectives thus enhancing a team's chance of winning so it makes sense that bots prioritize DDs as well. Co-op has much bigger problems that this.

 

Yep, understand this, but would you prioritise a DD that is somewhere in the background when you have 3 ships pounding you closer?

[alexf24]

AI esp lower tier is very stupid. They do go first for DDs, then for weak ships, even across the map.

You can use this to your advantage.

 

1. early on, follow the green bot DDs, they know

2. if you are not in a DD, follow yours. As soon as seen the bots will go for them and you will get targets

3. if a friendly cruiser or BB is being pounded, just show yourself in a DD, they will shoot at you instead, even from long range

4. if the bots are capping your only base, just get your DD to show itself. They will leave capping and do a conga line to you. Stupid, but that's how they work

5. they cheat. If you torp with the indicator, they know, and torpedo-beat with the best. Instead, once you take a line from your torpedo indicator, deselect it and shoot. Your chances automatically increase.

 

A few things like these should be fixed, but they are low priority so don't expect any changes anytime soon.

 

[m373x]

 

Yep, understand this, but would you prioritise a DD that is somewhere in the background when you have 3 ships pounding you closer?

 

Very much yes, depending on the situation. The thing is that bots are well... bots. They are bad, very bad, don't expect logic or anything else when you face them. 

[awildseaking]

Writing on the wall; stop playing co-op. What changes could you possibly need to relearn with new DD trees? They're all the same with different stats. It's not like you have wildly varying armor models, gun calibers and turret placements that fundamentally change your role compared to the previous one.

[_WaveRider_]

AI esp lower tier is very stupid. They do go first for DDs, then for weak ships, even across the map.

You can use this to your advantage.

 

1. early on, follow the green bot DDs, they know

2. if you are not in a DD, follow yours. As soon as seen the bots will go for them and you will get targets

3. if a friendly cruiser or BB is being pounded, just show yourself in a DD, they will shoot at you instead, even from long range

4. if the bots are capping your only base, just get your DD to show itself. They will leave capping and do a conga line to you. Stupid, but that's how they work

5. they cheat. If you torp with the indicator, they know, and torpedo-beat with the best. Instead, once you take a line from your torpedo indicator, deselect it and shoot. Your chances automatically increase.

 

A few things like these should be fixed, but they are low priority so don't expect any changes anytime soon.

 

 

Thank you for your reply. I am happy to use the AI to an advantage, I have no problems with this.

 

In random games I will often fire in order to reveal my ship (even though my damage is low against a BB), because the enemy BB may leave a friendly ship alone for a bit. This may let us win.

 

 

My complaint is more one that centres around the AI's obsession with a DD in that it completely changes the game in Co-Op compared to Randoms. I know they are already very different but I think trying to make Co-Op resemble a little bit of what you may get in Randoms would help. Otherwise the player that moves from Co-Op to Randoms isn't really going to benefit at all.

 

 

I would say for a DD Co-Op is an extremely good trainer because sometimes I can't even fire torps because every bigger ship goes in close quarters trying to get a kill and I can't trust my torps will not hit a friendly. It is just quite removed from Random  play in that CAs and BBs will not benefit at all from going from Co-Op to Randoms; thank you.

 

 

Edit: I have also noticed at higher tier Co-Op friendly DDs just camp behind islands waiting for bot ships to come along. This doesn't really help the team play when they move to Randoms.

[_WaveRider_]

 

Very much yes, depending on the situation. The thing is that bots are well... bots. They are bad, very bad, don't expect logic or anything else when you face them.

 

Writing on the wall; stop playing co-op. What changes could you possibly need to relearn with new DD trees? They're all the same with different stats. It's not like you have wildly varying armor models, gun calibers and turret placements that fundamentally change your role compared to the previous one.

 

m373x: If you would really target a DD when there are 2-3 ships closer to you then the tactic I use to have ships concentrate on me rather than a friendly would work nicely in your case. I must admit that unless that DD is about to die the bigger, torp carrying ships that are firing at me and are closer would get my attention more, but each to their own strengths.

 

 

 

awildseaking: Writing on the wall....no. No disrespect but I have a high tier premium ship that I have no intention of entering a random game without ensuring 1. I know how to handle the ship; 2. I have a captain sufficiently trained to use it's strengths. Yes, I play the game for enjoyment, but I also play the game to win (as I expect many do). I will not join a team if I feel I am not at the least ready to contribute to the battle (or closer to the point, I don't want to be a hindrance).

 

 

DD's are all the same? That's a classest statement if I ever heard one lol. So BBs and CAs and CVs are all the same? Of course they're not. Would you play a German BB like a IJN one? Or a Russian DD like a IJN one? I'm not talking about fundamental changes, but the ships do change tier to tier, as do the enemies you will face, as do the difference with the nations classes in the same tier.

 

 

Thank you.

[ked65]

I play a lot of co-op and i find DDs to be difficult most of the time. There are several things that seem to make things difficult. The focus fire is annoying but only becomes a real problem when friendlies charge past my ship rendering my torps useless unless I want to be pink for a while. They get away with it while I take a pounding and can't fight back with my main weapons. These battles usually end in a win but I finish near the bottom of my team because I get sunk early. Another thing is that there is no such thing as stealth. The bots seem to always know where you are even if you are undetected. Some DDs need to use stealth to be effective and there really just isn't any in co-op. At least most of the time they don't fire at you if you are undetected but don't get to comfortable because sometimes they do! They are also expert at dodging torps. Not so much at low tiers but things change as you get to higher tiers. If you use the in game aim assist for torps you would be lucky to hit 5%. There are ways to abuse the game mechanics to get better results with torp hits but I think this is something the devs could work on to improve game play. Players shouldn't have to find ways around the in game aiming system to be effective. And no I am not talking about cheats. It just doesn't make sense that you can get far more hits by not using the in game targeting to hit the ship you are trying to damage. One more thing. The focus fire wouldn't be so bad if the bots had the same hit percentage as their human counterparts.

[_WaveRider_]

Ked65, you describe what I've seen and why I would like a review of the Co-Op mechanics.

 

I suppose if Co-Op was just for Co-Op it would be ok, but if some are using it to prepare before going to randoms then there will be many who will end up yolo rushing thinking the DD will be the target and many DD players who will stay back and not scout.

 

Was just a thought; another thread about Co-Op has been started now lol.

[McDoob]

Ked65, you describe what I've seen and why I would like a review of the Co-Op mechanics.

 

I suppose if Co-Op was just for Co-Op it would be ok, but if some are using it to prepare before going to randoms then there will be many who will end up yolo rushing thinking the DD will be the target and many DD players who will stay back and not scout.

 

Was just a thought; another thread about Co-Op has been started now lol.

 

Hmm. That does explain some of the dumb things I see in Random sometimes. Like having to literally push a DD out from behind an island. Or watching a CL go full throttle into half the enemy team.

 

We call Co-Op a 'training room', but it's not supposed to train you on how to Random. It's supposed to train you on how your ship performs, and that's all. There are huge differences between gameplay in Co-Op versus Random.

 

For starters, the AI, while it has god-like perception, and literal aim-bots, is extremely predictable. Any good Random player knows that 'predictable' and 'dead' are one and the same. But it's easier to get a feel for your ship's firing characteristics if your target isn't jinking like mad. And, for the DDs, how can you learn your maneuvering ability if you are not forced to dodge?

 

The reason I prefer Random, other than the much higher rewards, is that the AI doesn't react; not like a human player, anyway. Have you ever come around a corner into point blank range of a BB in your DD? There is nothing funnier than watching that BB lose control of his helm and his bowels simultaneously. On the other hand, there is nothing more frustrating than watching your entire team rush headlong into an obvious trap.

 

The AI isn't the same as a player. Not by a long shot. And to play against one the same as the other is a recipe for disaster.

[Taylor3006]

Co-op DD play is pretty interesting. The only way I have been successful with them is to run to a cap, torp it and run away back to the fleet. Early game I hide behind other ships, I will get shot at but with my other teammates there, we generally make quick work of the bad guys. Now late game (generally after enemy CA's and DD's are dead) you have free run of the map torping BB's and hunting CV's. It is pretty conventional later on. One great thing to do (even in PvP) is when you are slithering around unspotted, look to see where the enemy ships guns are pointed. If away from you, attack with your guns and when the bot turns his attention towards you and away from what ever he was shooting at, run away! In PvE never flee away from your team, always try to run to them when playing a DD. They will be your only hope because once the bots decide your DD needs to die, they are like the terminator, they just keep coming at you. A neat trick for more torp hits is when you have the firing solution turn off your aim assist on the tubes (that grey thingie that shows where you should launch) and then launch your torps. That way the bots have the exact same chance as you do for seeing incoming torpedoes. On those rare occasions where you end up in a "circle of death" fight with a bot DD, keep turning tight, eventually he will straighten up and you can make him eat your torps. Not sure why the bot does this but it has been my experience every time that I have been in that situation with the AI.

[KnightFandragon]

Well, all I know on the whole "coop is super easy" thing, is the PLAYERS at T7+ NARROWLY win every game.  I played 16 games with my uncle and a few with my dad in our Alabama and dad's Bismarck, and of the 16 games we played, every one except maybe 2, were narrow, down to the last 3 player ships, scrambling to try and pull out the win. 

 

Soooo, either players are truly crap, or the AI arent as bad as people claim.  Im thinking it a little bit of both.  I went on to play another game in my Alabama solo, and lol, it was a loss, and a terrible one to.  Entire team was dead before I could get from the left corner of the map where I spawned.  I was 2nd on our team, with 1 kill and like 80,000 dmg before being sunk. 

 

Sooo, idk......PVE honestly needs to be buffed in its earnings to still be worth playing really....Premium ship and it makes like 20k profit on a 90k dmg, 2 kill win.....its sad.  we should be easily banking 100k in a good game with a premium T8. 

[Taylor3006]

Well, all I know on the whole "coop is super easy" thing, is the PLAYERS at T7+ NARROWLY win every game.  I played 16 games with my uncle and a few with my dad in our Alabama and dad's Bismarck, and of the 16 games we played, every one except maybe 2, were narrow, down to the last 3 player ships, scrambling to try and pull out the win.

 

Soooo, either players are truly crap, or the AI arent as bad as people claim.  Im thinking it a little bit of both.  I went on to play another game in my Alabama solo, and lol, it was a loss, and a terrible one to.  Entire team was dead before I could get from the left corner of the map where I spawned.  I was 2nd on our team, with 1 kill and like 80,000 dmg before being sunk.

 

Sooo, idk......PVE honestly needs to be buffed in its earnings to still be worth playing really....Premium ship and it makes like 20k profit on a 90k dmg, 2 kill win.....its sad.  we should be easily banking 100k in a good game with a premium T8.

 

Ehh I don't think the economics needs changing in PvE and I have multiple thousands of games there. Never been in a bind for credits even playing up to tier 8. I have had very few games where I have lost money but we are talking full potato mode and I deserved not getting credits. They purposely pay less for Co-op for two reasons. One they want people to play PvP and two is because it actually is more expensive for them to run PvE games (server wise) since it uses more resources for fewer people. I in no way feel punished for playing Co-op economy wise and think it is fine. Not sure what the "stats" are for PvE but am guessing the win rate is north of 90% so the losses really stick out. They can be jarring and yes sometimes your team is just terrible, sometimes the bots just get lucky. I normally run into problems when playing a low tier US carrier like Langley or Bogue with the standard map and I spawn behind our base. I have trouble getting out of harms way before the bots show up and start shooting especially if my team has split in two directions leaving the middle open.  Anyways the economy is fine for PvE, the rewards are good and I am super happy that the new missions allow for Co-op play in most instances. The ONLY thing I dislike it getting detonated in PvE only, can not seem to get one in PvP play so I can get flags! Seriously I TRY and get detonated sometimes, usually just end up with a devastating hit....

Remember that many players in PvE are new, some are players more familiar with PvP and fighting bots is very different than what they are used to. Many in Co-op are using stock ships for the first time so they are figuring it out. Best not to worry about it much, the chance of losing makes the game fun, even if it happens very infrequently. It is a good thing when the games are close IMHO. One sided victories or losses in either game mode are hardly any fun.

[KnightFandragon]

The friggin earnings in PVE are a joke lol.  Running the Alabama and in a 100K+ dmg game with atleast 1 kill, without the 50% camo im running, I woulda netted 20k credits.....

 

You do 10k dmg and a loss in the Alabama in PVP and you make 100k net credits.  Its not even close. 

 

Id be perfectly ok with 100k dmg in PVP=400k net, but 100k dmg in PVE=150k net.   Same with XP, PVP Xp, you get like 4-9k XP for a good game with just a premium ship.  PVE, with absolutely every bonus in the game, you get like 1000xp....Im not askin' for 1:1 ratio, but prolly 35-40% of what PVP pays for a similar performance. 

 

Not the way it is now....

[Raptor_alcor]

While on the topic of things: can the AI actually pick ships OTHER than just CA/CL and DDs? Kinda annoying picking my iowa up for some more gunnery practice and facing up against 7 bots in co-op. 

[Taylor3006]

While on the topic of things: can the AI actually pick ships OTHER than just CA/CL and DDs? Kinda annoying picking my iowa up for some more gunnery practice and facing up against 7 bots in co-op. 

 

 

 

Don't think I have ever seen them pick anything but CA's and DD's when you are the only human. I play quite a bit in the wee hours when no one else is around, I generally take a CV and when my team is all bots, never seen a friendly BB bot. 

[Suzunami]

While on the topic of things: can the AI actually pick ships OTHER than just CA/CL and DDs? Kinda annoying picking my iowa up for some more gunnery practice and facing up against 7 bots in co-op. 

The current AI is deeply flawed for BB/CV play(more than CA/DD). Bot play BB just like CA/DD, charging in for a brawl, which is why they get torped a lot more than human BB. Bot CV is plain dumb, I routinely farm plane kills in my CV as in shooting down all bot planes if I can let some of my team die to drag the game a bit longer, which is very necessary due to CV economy. It's better that bot don't pick BB/CV until their AI improves.