Let's compare Hood to the others

[dseehafer]

Greetings all,

 

*cracks fingers* I haven't done one of these since the Dunkerque came out. But, there seems to be a lot of worry about Hood's statistics (as they currently are, they are subject to change) so lets line 'em all up and see what we can see!

 

HITPOINTS

 

1 - Hood: 67,700

2 - Nagato: 65,000

3 - Gneisenau: 58,200

4 - Scharnhorst: 56,300

5 - Colorado: 50,100

 

BELT ARMOR

 

1 - Scharnhorst and Gneisenau: 350mm

2 - Colorado: 343mm

3 - Hood and Nagato: 305mm

 

TURRET FACES

 

1 - Nagato and Colorado: 457mm

2 - Hood: 381mm

3 - Gneisenau and Scharnhorst: 360mm

 

MAIN BATTERY GUNS SIZE

 

1- Nagato: 410mm

2 - Colorado: 406mm

3 - Hood: 381mm

4 - Gneisenau: 380mm

5 - Scharnhorst: 283mm

 

MAIN BATTERY BROADSIDE

 

1 - Scharnhorst: 9 guns

2 - Hood, Nagato and Colorado: 8 guns

3 - Gneisenau: 6 guns

 

MAIN BATTERY FIRING RANGE

 

1 - Nagato: 20,460m

2 - Scharnhorst: 19,870m

3 - Gneisenau: 19,547m

4 - Colorado: 18,832m

5 - Hood: 17,570m

 

 

MAIN BATTERY RELOAD TIME

 

1 - Scharnhorst: 20s

2 - Gneisenau: 26s

3 - Hood and Colorado: 30s

4 - Nagato: 32s

 

AP MUZZLE VELOCITY

 

1 - Scharnhorst: 890

2 - Gneisenau: 820

3 - Nagato: 806

4 - Colorado: 768

5 - Hood: 731.5

 

MAX AP SHELL DAMAGE (CITADEL HIT)

 

1 - Nagato: 12,600

2 - Colorado: 12,400

3 - Gneisenau: 11,600

4 - Hood: 11,400

5 - Scharnhorst: 7,600

 

MAX AP BROADSIDE DPM

 

1- Scharnhorst: 205,200

2 - Colorado: 198,400

3 - Nagato: 189,000

4 - Hood: 182,400

5 - Gneisenau: 160,567

 

AP SHELL KRUPP 

 

1 - Nagato: 2,711

2 - Colorado: 2,636

3 - Gneisenau: 2,450

4 - Scharnhorst: 2,312

5 - Hood: 2,190

 

TURRET TRAVERSE SPEED

 

1 - Scharnhorst: 7.2

2 - Gneisenau: 5

3 - Colorado: 4

4 - Nagato: 3.8

5 - Hood: 3

 

MAXIMUM FORWARD ANGLE AT WHICH ALL MAIN GUNS CAN BE FIRED

 

1 - Scharnhorst: 30

2 - Hood: 32

3 - Gneisenau: 34

4 - Nagato: 35

5 - Colorado: 37

 

SECONDARY BROADSIDE

 

1 - Scharnhorst: 14 guns

2 - Nagato: 13 guns

3 - Gneisenau: 12 guns

4 - Hood and Colorado: 8 guns

 

MAX SECONDARY FIRING RANGE

 

1 - All: 5km

 

MAX SECONDARY DPM

 

1 - Nagato: 283,050

2 - Scharnhorst: 267,864

3 - Hood: 240,000

4 - Gneisenau: 216,000

5 - Colorado: 157,704

 

TORPEDOES

 

1 - Scharnhorst and Gneisenau: 6

2 - Hood, Nagato and Colorado: 0

 

TOTAL AA AURA (LONG, MEDIUM, SHORT)

 

1 - Colorado: 3.52 (.58, .34, 1.27, 1.33)

2 - Gneisenau: 2.90 (1.36, .62, .50, .42)

3 - Nagato: 2.28 (.40, .43, .85, .60, 0)

4 - Scharnhorst: 1.97 (1.16, .21, .30, .30)

5 - Hood: 1.83 (.5, .66, .59, .08)

 

FLOAT PLANE

 

1 - Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, Nagato and Colorado: Yes

2 - Hood: No

 

TOP SPEED

 

1 - Hood and Gneisenau: 32kn

2 - Scharnhorst: 30kn

3 - Nagato: 25kn

4 - Colorado: 21kn

 

TURNING CIRCLE

 

1 - Colorado: 640

2 - Nagato: 770

3 - Scharnhorst: 800

4 - Gneisenau: 830

5 - Hood: 910

 

RUDDER SHIFT TIME

 

1 - Nagato: 17.88

2 - Scharnhorst: 18.92

3 - Gneisenau: 19.02

4 - Hood: 20.62

5 - Colorado: 20.99

 

SURFACE DETECTABILITY

 

1 - Scharnhorst and Gneisenau: 15.66

2 - Hood: 16.2

3 - Colorado: 16.74

4 - Nagato: 17.1

 

Scores - done by adding up the placements, the lower the score the better.

 

1 - Scharnhorst: 48

2 - Nagato: 50

3 - Gneisenau: 58

4 - Colorado: 64

5 - Hood: 73

 

 

Ok, I'm officially done defending the Hood. 

 

[Big_Spud]

At least Colorado is giving it a good run for how useless it can be.

[Vaporisor]

I suspect a start nerfed then buffed up.

[dseehafer]

I suspect a start nerfed then buffed up.

 

​Let's hope so.

[RivertheRoyal]

I see her getting buffed, like they did with the Mutsu. Really, this doesn't seem very appealing as is.  

[kerensky914]

At least Colorado is giving it a good run for how useless it can be.

 

At least Colorado is giving it a good run for how useless it can be.

 

But Lolorado has already been buffed a couple of times.

[Battlecruiser_Siegfried]

As others have reminded us, it is early in the process. Having said that, this is now the second Royal Navy capital ship to see the light of day, and it is yet another seriously flawed customer. Do I like my Warspite? Yes. But when she's uptiered to 8, the range issues go from a "quirk" to a crippling, festering, hobbling disease. Moreover, she has always had - and, I believe, continues to have - armor modeling issues, particularly with bow armor (the only BB higher than tier 5 that I've seen this same thing with is Colorado, whose bow eats citadels like a hungry street dog). 

 

The problem is, the "flavor" for British BBs doesn't seem to be some kind of net positive, but rather a series of annoying, stupid negatives that do nothing but infuriate players. Crap turret traverse? Check. Oh, but garbage range... so you're expected to close (but remember! Junk turret traverse!). Then, darn it, incoming shells... and, whoops! Your funky bow armor has just been nailed for two citadels from an Amagi! Game over, brohime! 

 

Warspite was an outlying integer. Now we have a pattern. And the pattern blows stinky chunks all over our widescreen television sets. Why'd you do that, man? I thought we were cool, Wargaming... but here you are, spewing all over my TV.

[dseehafer]

 

 

But Lolorado has already been buffed a couple of times.

 

It's not enough. She needs her hitpoints fixed and needs to morph into WeeVee. Then she'll be fixed.

[Francois424]

They kinda nerfed the rudder shift from 14.42sec to 20.61sec this week.

Both youtube preview-er I have watched had their source mentioning this.  Had this nerf net happened (if it did for all we know) with 14.41 sec -20% for module, it would have been much better.

This can change again and kinda expecting it will.  Right now, unless the Hood has troll armor and/or troll HE/Fire resistance off the whazoo, this isn't looking too good.

 

As others have reminded us, it is early in the process. Having said that, this is now the second Royal Navy capital ship to see the light of day, and it is yet another seriously flawed customer. Do I like my Warspite? Yes. But when she's uptiered to 8, the range issues go from a "quirk" to a crippling, festering, hobbling disease. Moreover, she has always had - and, I believe, continues to have - armor modeling issues, particularly with bow armor (the only BB higher than tier 5 that I've seen this same thing with is Colorado, whose bow eats citadels like a hungry street dog).

 

The problem is, the "flavor" for British BBs doesn't seem to be some kind of net positive, but rather a series of annoying, stupid negatives that do nothing but infuriate players. Crap turret traverse? Check. Oh, but garbage range... so you're expected to close (but remember! Junk turret traverse!). Then, darn it, incoming shells... and, whoops! Your funky bow armor has just been nailed for two citadels from an Amagi! Game over, brohime!

 

Warspite was an outlying integer. Now we have a pattern. And the pattern blows stinky chunks all over our widescreen television sets. Why'd you do that, man? I thought we were cool, Wargaming... but here you are, spewing all over my TV.

 

Even with all of her Flaws, WarSpite is still an absolute joy to play for me.  Would I like her to be fixed better? sure.  But as is, she feels extremely comfortable to me.

The "Crap turret traverse" does absolutely not bother me because WarSpite has awesome turn radius and rudder shift.  She is awesome like that.  The range could be an issue, but with her spotter plane for early match contact and late match CV sniping it does the job.

 

WarSpite had the best range on her secondaries when she came out.  5km base (7.2 km) was unheard of, let alone at tier 6 (Yamato didn't have 7km yet, that was changed later).  And her secondaries are insane good.  I mean even without manual secondaries, they hurt a lot and are really good deterrent to T6 and under small ships.  Her repair systems (who where nerfed sometime in OBT I believe) was also very good.

So if WG wanted to "Keep the fun intact" for the Hood they just had to make Hood a T7 WarSpite.  Of course we would still be losing a lot of Turn radius due to her size (in exchange for HP that just melts under fire) but hoping for anything 650-780 with the 14.5sec ruddershift, good main gun range (say... 18.5?), WarSpite shell velocities and a 2.0 sigma, throw in some 6km base range WarSpite-type secondaries, and finally keep the fast repair/cooldown... You'd end-up with a very similar beast to WarSpite, at Tier7, who can be competitive.  I don't mind the torpedo tubes on her or not... if she has them, good, if not, whatever.  Same for turret rotation (I don't mind this being the Achilles' heel of the UK BB line), as long as the pluses from the WarSpite are put in game.  It might not be historical, but balance > historical.

 

^^^

That is what I expected the Hood to be.  I already have Scharnhorst for my T7 pleasure, but having a second UK BB to grind my captain on would've been very nice.

Hoping it gets good enough by the time it is given birth to.
 

EDIT: +1 to DSeehafer for taking the time to do this.

[Fast_Battleship_Iowa]

Piece of sh_t, just like she was IRL!

[Battlecruiser_Siegfried]

They kinda nerfed the rudder shift from 14.42sec to 20.61sec this week.

Both youtube preview-er I have watched had their source mentioning this.  Had this nerf net happened (if it did for all we know) with 14.41 sec -20% for module, it would have been much better.

This can change again and kinda expecting it will.  Right now, unless the Hood has troll armor and/or troll HE/Fire resistance off the whazoo, this isn't looking too good.

 

 

Even with all of her Flaws, WarSpite is still an absolute joy to play for me.  Would I like her to be fixed better? sure.  But as is, she feels extremely comfortable to me.

The "Crap turret traverse" does absolutely not bother me because WarSpite has awesome turn radius and rudder shift.  She is awesome like that.  The range could be an issue, but with her spotter plane for early match contact and late match CV sniping it does the job.

 

WarSpite had the best range on her secondaries when she came out.  5km base (7.2 km) was unheard of, let alone at tier 6 (Yamato didn't have 7km yet, that was changed later).  And her secondaries are insane good.  I mean even without manual secondaries, they hurt a lot and are really good deterrent to T6 and under small ships.  Her repair systems (who where nerfed sometime in OBT I believe) was also very good.

 

So if WG wanted to "Keep the fun intact" for the Hood they just had to make Hood a T7 WarSpite.  Of course we would still be losing a lot of Turn radius due to her size (in exchange for HP that just melts under fire) but hoping for anything 650-780 with the 14.5sec ruddershift, good main gun range (say... 18.5?), WarSpite shell velocities and a 2.0 sigma, throw in some 6km base range WarSpite-type secondaries, and finally keep the fast repair/cooldown... You'd end-up with a very similar beast to WarSpite, at Tier7, who can be competitive.  I don't mind the torpedo tubes on her or not... if she has them, good, if not, whatever.  Same for turret rotation (I don't mind this being the Achilles' heel of the UK BB line), as long as the pluses from the WarSpite are put in game.  It might not be historical, but balance > historical.

^^^

That is what I expected the Hood to be.  I already have Scharnhorst for my T7 pleasure, but having a second UK BB to grind my captain on would've been very nice.

Hoping it gets good enough by the time it is given birth to.

 

EDIT: +1 to DSeehafer for taking the time to do this.

 

But, of course, with her horrid rudder shift, Hood is not going to be a tier 7 Warspite by any means (which I know was your point).

 

Also, I have a fair amount of time under my belt as Warspite, and my perspective is this - even with the toy-like turning radius, the large battleship hull is simply too much of a torpedo and HE magnet to make brawling in anything but tier 5-6 games viable. Once you move into 7 and 8, the number of fish heading your way, or steady stream of hellfire cascading on your boat, rules out the aggressive play that should be Warspite's hallmark. And she's trash for sitting back and slinging shells. So it's a boat that really uptiers very, very poorly (especially against something like a Dunkerque, which - while no behemoth - can at least chill in the rear, bow-on, and pick off cruisers). 

 

Enter Hood, with an ENORMOUS hull by comparison, crappy turning, no secondary improvement, no main battery improvement, a slight (but arguably equal for-tier) increase in range... and she's going to be a brawler, too? Or... I mean, I don't even know. THIS is the problem with where they're going with this British thing - it's inexplicable, all over the place, and isn't fun.

[Battlecruiser_Siegfried]

Piece of sh_t, just like she was IRL!

 

I hate to say this but... yeah. For the price, the British would have been much better served - even in WWII - with another Queen Elizabeth, or a couple more Renowns. Then again, I'm a big believer that the Royal Sovereigns were complete slag heaps that never should have been built, either.

[dseehafer]

 no secondary improvement

 

Credit where credit is due, though - For only being able to fire 8 secondary guns to a broadside, Hood's secondaries really pick up the slack in the DPM department, even outstripping the Gneisenau and her 4 extra broadside secondaries.

[Bjoring]

I think it's a bit unfair to throw the Hood, which never received major upgrades, into tier VII against the upgraded Colorado and Nagato and the nearly two decades younger Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. Consider that the Warspite in her WWII configuration is at tier VI, and is (arguably) more powerful than the tier VII Hood. IMO, Hood would be powerful, but not overpowered, at tier VI, but is decidedly underpowered in her current placement with her current stats.

[dseehafer]

I think it's a bit unfair to throw the Hood, which never received major upgrades, into tier VII against the upgraded Colorado and Nagato and the nearly two decades younger Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. Consider that the Warspite in her WWII configuration is at tier VI, and is (arguably) more powerful than the tier VII Hood.

 

You can't have a battleship with more hitpoints than most tier 8 battleships floating around at tier 6.

 

 

Warspite beats Hood in main battery firepower because of her better shells and also turns better, that's about it. Hood has a much bigger hitpoint pool, is much faster, has better secondary DPM, better AA, better turret traverse, better range and comparable armor protection. Comparing Hood's current stats to Warspite's and it's easy to see why Hood's not a tier 6. In either event Warspite (in-game) is certainly not more powerful than Hood (in-game).

[Battlecruiser_Siegfried]

I think it's a bit unfair to throw the Hood, which never received major upgrades, into tier VII against the upgraded Colorado and Nagato and the nearly two decades younger Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. Consider that the Warspite in her WWII configuration is at tier VI, and is (arguably) more powerful than the tier VII Hood. IMO, Hood would be powerful, but not overpowered, at tier VI, but is decidedly underpowered in her current placement with her current stats.

 

It is an interesting point - I, personally, feel that IRL, all things being equal, Warspite would sink the Hood, should the latter have chosen to fight. 

 

The problem is the issue of hitpoints - Hood is enormous; simply too big for tier 6. Thus, she MUST be in tier 7, with all the various negatives associated. One alternative would be to give her a "B hull" upgrade that the British had been contemplating before the war broke out - but the chances of this happening on a premium ship are about zero (once the British get a battlecruiser tree, expect the 'Admiral class' tier 7 to have it, however). So that really leaves Hood in something of a bind - it's essentially a tier 7 (really 7.5) hull, with tier 6 ordinance slapped on top of it. Not good.

[dseehafer]

 

It is an interesting point - I, personally, feel that IRL, all things being equal, Warspite would sink the Hood, should the latter have chosen to fight. 

 

The problem is the issue of hitpoints - Hood is enormous; simply too big for tier 6. Thus, she MUST be in tier 7, with all the various negatives associated. One alternative would be to give her a "B hull" upgrade that the British had been contemplating before the war broke out - but the chances of this happening on a premium ship are about zero (once the British get a battlecruiser tree, expect the 'Admiral class' tier 7 to have it, however). So that really leaves Hood in something of a bind - it's essentially a tier 7 (really 7.5) hull, with tier 6 ordinance slapped on top of it. Not good.

 

Agreed, though it's more of a tier 8 hull with tier 6 ordinance, thus the tier 7 compromise. 

 

Edit: I say tier 8 hull because she has more hitpoints than NC, 'bama and Amagi and has better longitudinal citadel protection that NC and 'bama but worse hitpoints and armor compared to the Bismarck sisters.

[Vaporisor]

I think it's a bit unfair to throw the Hood, which never received major upgrades, into tier VII against the upgraded Colorado and Nagato and the nearly two decades younger Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. Consider that the Warspite in her WWII configuration is at tier VI, and is (arguably) more powerful than the tier VII Hood. IMO, Hood would be powerful, but not overpowered, at tier VI, but is decidedly underpowered in her current placement with her current stats.

 

How is Warspite arguably more powerful?  I mean the Hood, was bigger, faster, newer and more armed than Warspite?  I will wait to see til after testing for current stats.

[Battlecruiser_Siegfried]

 

How is Warspite arguably more powerful?  I mean the Hood, was bigger, faster, newer and more armed than Warspite?  I will wait to see til after testing for current stats.

 

Warspite was a more compact hullform specifically designed as a battleship and significantly (though not hugely) upgraded between the wars. Hood was a complex contradiction of ideas and design theories largely thrown together in its final form at the last second while the ship was under construction. It gained nothing but additional vulnerability (and speed; but speed wasn't particularly useful if you chose to fight in a 1 on 1 engagement where it was in your interest and the enemy ship's to close, as it would be in a Hood vs. Warspite IRL contest) from its great size.

 

---

 

What we see here is really a problem with the theory behind Hood overall. The ship was ordered at a time of dramatic change for capital ships - being altered several times on the ways to reflect crucial lessons from Jutland. Meanwhile, other navies (such as the Japanese and Americans) finished what dreadnoughts they were building and then upped the ante (with the Nagatos, Colorados, and - ultimately - Tosas, Amagis, SoDaks [first gen.] and Lexingtons). These were the *true* third generation battleships and battlecruisers, to which the British equivalent was to be the N3s and the G3s (which would have been outstanding).

 

This is why the Admirals were cancelled - because they were, really, obsolesced even at Hood's launch date. The British knew they could design better, and they did so - rapidly. But there was Hood: huge, fast (but awkward), with an insufficient armament, somewhat questionable armoring, and really very little utility (especially by WWII). If you're going to have a battlecruiser, better to have a 31 knot Renown to go chase down enemy raiders than a lumbering 28 knot Hood to... get exploded by a real battleship?

[dseehafer]

But there was Hood: huge, fast (but awkward), with an insufficient armament, somewhat questionable armoring, and really very little utility (especially by WWII).

 

Renown would find her niche escorting fast carriers and convoys. I'm sure that Hood, had she not been sunk in 1941, would have done the same.

[Battlecruiser_Siegfried]

 

Renown would find her niche escorting fast carriers and convoys. I'm sure that Hood, had she not been sunk in 1941, would have done the same.

 

Only if she'd been upgraded; at 28 knots, she would have been too slow for more modern CVs. The mere rumor (faked by savvy British counterintelligence) that Renown was on her way was enough to spook Langsdorff into scuttling Graf Spee; would he have done the same if he had known Hood was en route? The answer really depends on whether or not the Germans knew Hood's top speed in 1939 - my guess is they still thought it was 31 knots, so the answer would be yes. However, realistically, even if Graf Spee couldn't have outrun the Hood, she certainly wouldn't have been run down by her, either.

[HazeGrayUnderway]

Are Hood's guns accurate so far for the game?  If the guns are accurate then that can alleviate a lot of problems.  If not, then, well...

[dseehafer]

 

Only if she'd been upgraded; at 28 knots, she would have been too slow for more modern CVs. The mere rumor (faked by savvy British counterintelligence) that Renown was on her way was enough to spook Langsdorff into scuttling Graf Spee; would he have done the same if he had known Hood was en route? The answer really depends on whether or not the Germans knew Hood's top speed in 1939 - my guess is they still thought it was 31 knots, so the answer would be yes. However, realistically, even if Graf Spee couldn't have outrun the Hood, she certainly wouldn't have been run down by her, either.

 

Was Renown still able to best 30kn after her modernization? 

[Francois424]

Are Hood's guns accurate so far for the game?  If the guns are accurate then that can alleviate a lot of problems.  If not, then, well...

 

1.8 sigma is the best we have.

Not WarSpite's 2.0.

 

So less than WarSpite unless dispersion is REALLY good.

[Battlecruiser_Siegfried]

 

Was Renown still able to best 30kn after her modernization? 

 

I've never heard that they made anything less than 30.5-31. Wikipedia quotes her as-built as making better than 32, and in 1939 hitting 30.75.