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jeffreywalker74656

Flamu Finally Recommends Alabama

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crzyhawk    2,907

I have reached my quote of positive votes for the day.

 

A real TDS is the dream I think.

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Wardog_Noir    30

If there's one thing I've always operated by, it's to take whatever any Community Contributor says with a grain of salt.  They essentially are working for Wargaming by testing out these ships before release, regardless of compensation.  Not that it's a bad thing, but you should never treat what they say as the absolute final word on a ship's performance. Personally, I'll look at both Mouse's and iChase's reviews to get the raw stats of the ship in question and then base it off my own experience.  Notser and Zoup are pretty good in my mind for reviews on how the ships play; Notser tends to be a bit more critical of things he doesn't agree with, and Zoup plays his ships fairly similar to how I do.  Flamu and Jingles honestly don't register as viable sources to me.

 

The main takeaway here is to use your own experience when deciding on a ship.

 

As to the Alabama itself...  If it comes out with the lowered citadel then yes, it will be superior to the North Carolina.  But it will not be PtW for a tier 8 battleship given just how much Bismarck dominates the other ships in tier.  Honestly, the fact that Alabama will probably end up second or third in ranking at tier will show just how weak North Carolina is.  Alabama will be balanced around the tier as a whole instead of around one of the poorest ships in the tier.  It's really a sad truth in this game that you have to go premium to get a US battleship that isn't the worst or almost the worst performer against its peers.

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Madwolf05    1,702

 

I think he was spot on.  I think Indianapolis is crap.  I never EVER feel threatened by one in my Belfast.  I expect to win 95% of those engagements. 

 

The problem with Indy is getting into radar range without being blasted off the face of the planet.

 

Honestly may be I have a screwed perspective, because I'm apparently Top 15 in WTR for her in Ranked this season. However, I took her because my best Cruiser Captain was USN, and between the Pensacola, Atlanta, and the Indianapolis she's the best choice. Out of those ships the Indianapolis clearly has the best tool kit and survival ability. Regardless if you agree or not, their is no way the Indianapolis doesn't end up above the Pensacola in a Tiered system because she simply brings Radar, which the Pensacola does not. Not to mention her 6 forward guns give her more forward fire power to effectively angle off and hunt down ships sitting in smoke.

 

It isn't a fair assessment of the Indianapolis to say she cannot effectively engage the Belfast because of the danger of approaching her within Radar range assumes that this is done in open water. However, this isn't necessarily true. The Belfast will seldom fail to smoke up in open water, but instead usually does it near island formations, making it possible to sneak up on her and engage her broadside where she cannot effectively escape without taking massive damage. The Belfast can certainly do her damage, but she must shift her guns to respond.

 

If the Atlanta is considered a better ship then the Flint because of Radar, then surely the Indianapolis represents a ship that is better than the Pensacola because of Radar. The Atlanta also cannot bring to bear the alpha damage the Indianapolis can bring to bear to punish ships caught by her radar. While the Atlanta may be better against the DDs, she isn't nearly as effective against a Belfast or Fiji, and also has less health than the Indianapolis.

 

That isn't to say the Indianapolis is a good ship, as she certainly leaves a lot to be desired in terms of toughness, but she certainly wasn't a bad ship to bring in ranked thanks to the toolkit she was able to provide where other ships, especially the CAs were lacking.

 

There were also other issues with this list, such as having the Nagato as top tier and having the Gneis and Schanhorst spread out lower than her over two Tiers under. 

 

I just don't think the guy is as logically sound as his ego claims to be. I side with Lert, LWM, and Notser in terms of reviews simply because they provide a balanced approach to each ship, from what seems like a much more neutral starting point. 

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Lampshade_M1A2    601

Can't watch the video at the moment, with the corrected citadel I might actually buy Alabama, yet how much worse is her accuracy than the North Carolina? North Carolina's level of dispersion is pretty bad to begin with.

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LittleWhiteMouse    16,657

Can't watch the video at the moment, with the corrected citadel I might actually buy Alabama, yet how much worse is her accuracy than the North Carolina? North Carolina's level of dispersion is pretty bad to begin with.

 

Typical sub-tier 9 American maximum dispersion, but her shells don't go wonky very often.  Very comparable (though slightly worse) than North Carolina's.  Due to the low muzzle velocity of her AP shells, they tend to lob a little more.  The trade off is that they have a longer flight time to target but their vertical dispersion behaves much more so than the equivalent Japanese or German Battleship with higher velocity shells.

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Typical sub-tier 9 American maximum dispersion, but her shells don't go wonky very often.  Very comparable (though slightly worse) than North Carolina's.  Due to the low muzzle velocity of her AP shells, they tend to lob a little more.  The trade off is that they have a longer flight time to target but their vertical dispersion behaves much more so than the equivalent Japanese or German Battleship with higher velocity shells.

 

How do you think Alabama is armor wise after the change ? She handle shells like North Carolina ? or more like Iowa/Missouri and Montana ? 

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Big_Spud    2,284

 

How do you think Alabama is armor wise after the change ? She handle shells like North Carolina ? or more like Iowa/Missouri and Montana ? 

 

When angled properly it should perform identically to Iowa I would imagine.

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LittleWhiteMouse    16,657

 

How do you think Alabama is armor wise after the change ? She handle shells like North Carolina ? or more like Iowa/Missouri and Montana ? 

 

Since the change, she doesn't take citadel hits very often (unless you're dumb and/or over extend).  Her armour is nice and bouncy when you angle at medium range.  At long range, the drop of shells can still penetrate your decks or result in penetrating hits.

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HazeGrayUnderway    2,482

 

I would agree w/this.

 

Not a fan but Flamu but he will call out WG on their [edited]with regularity, so for that I commend him.

 

One of the first guys to be alarmed about how Black originally was going to be.

 

Can't watch the video at the moment, with the corrected citadel I might actually buy Alabama, yet how much worse is her accuracy than the North Carolina? North Carolina's level of dispersion is pretty bad to begin with.

 

Alabama is slightly worse than North Carolina's.  I touched upon it earlier in the thread.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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Grizley    1,281

 

When angled properly it should perform identically to Iowa I would imagine.

 

Should be better than the Iowa, with the low citadel it's a little smaller target at least.  It might not be the tankiest BB ever, but at least it won't be instant death to have a flank at less than autobounce angles.

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warp103    52

 

In my opinion, it is better than NC. Undeniably so.

 

- She's just fast, but turns considerably better.

- She has twice the torpedo belt

- Her AA is very good - what few DPS she has less at mid range isn't suddenly going to let strike squadrons through that NC would've stopped.

- She's not that much less accurate - in fact, during playtesting I failed to notice an appreciable difference. The vast majority of players aren't going to notice 0.1 sigma difference.

- Her less range is only a problem if you plan to snipe from max range.

 

Had she had only her agility to counter the slight advantages NC has in gunnery, she would've been equal. But she has twice the TDS as well.

 

Mark my words. 4 months after release, Alabama is going to pull in better DPG and WR than NC over the same period. Because it's a better ship. That opinion comes after having played NC, pre-buff Alabama and post-buff Alabama.

Sorry but I disagree.

The Bama

-slightly less HP

-slightly worst Concealment

- Can get  Citadeled in the pooper*** get flanked you get REKTED {even by a CA}

-  worst AA

- slower shells

You are Guessing it going pull in more Damage per game.

Yes more Maneuverable but you lose concelment

Better torp belt for less range{ This assume that you are going to let the torp hit your belt}.

When you look at the numbers

Survivability         82  79

AA                        77 75

Maneuverability   36 37

Concealment       30 28

Secondary           10 10

For a total      235   229

So to me you are just Paying for a NC Crew trainer.

 

So she is AS good as the NC not better

 

     
     
Edited by warp103

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Big_Spud    2,284

 

Should be better than the Iowa, with the low citadel it's a little smaller target at least.  It might not be the tankiest BB ever, but at least it won't be instant death to have a flank at less than autobounce angles.

 

In terms of actual armor performance itself, not the citadel placement.

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Grizley    1,281

Yes, pen wise it should be about the same.  But taking a 33% pen instead of a 100% citadel should make it a much tankier beast.

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Since the change, she doesn't take citadel hits very often (unless you're dumb and/or over extend).  Her armour is nice and bouncy when you angle at medium range.  At long range, the drop of shells can still penetrate your decks or result in penetrating hits.

 

Thanks Mouse, Appreciate it. Really excited for this ship. 

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Air_0374    5

- Can get  Citadeled in the pooper*** get flanked you get REKTED {even by a CA}

 

The armor model is a lot more complicated than just one layer. The citadel bulkhead is that thin but there are much thicker ones in the stern.

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On a rather funny side note, Amagi is now back to being the best performing tier 8 battleship on NA somehow. I'm not entirely sure how the average player does worse in Bismarck than Amagi, but w/e.

 

Thats easy, the Bismarck has been touted as being a pretty OP ship, people associate "OP" with "dont have to apply brains", so they dont.  So, they play the Bismarck overtly stupid and it dies alot more.  Amagi hasnt been raised or touted to be a god among BBs yet...so people still play it with a bit of caution. 

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HazeGrayUnderway    2,482

Alabama having 16mm aft of the citadel isn't a problem unique to her.  Iowa has the exact same problem and she currently has a raised citadel.  Not sure if Missouri does, can't check ATM.

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Raptor_alcor    1,457

 

Whats wrong with Flamu's opinions?  They dont go along with the "you just gotta gitgud sir", "go bow on and your gold"? 

 

Yeah, Wargaming community, runs much like Soviet Russia, dont speak out against the status quo. 

 

Its honestly nice to hear a, what im sure is a good player, not just spouting off the same ol' washed up "gotta gitgud" crap....

 

Since your reading comprehension seems to fail you tonight let me summarize it at a gradeschool level: Flamu doesn't have bad opinions, flamu's fanbois don't have opinions at all and just blindly follow flamu. 
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LittleWhiteMouse    16,657

Sorry but I disagree.

     

 

Well, let's go over those points and which ones matter (and by how much).  We'll rate these by two measures.

 

First, we'll rate by how often this particular trait is applicable.  Note, we're measuring how often the difference between the two traits is useful and applicable, not by how a given system is used.  For example, if we were comparing Warspite's bonus heals through her Repair Party, then we would see it as "Frequent" as her Repair Party gets activated several times per game and will always generate more HP than other ships. 

  • If it's applicable so rarely as to be laughable, we'll rate it RARE.
  • If highly situational, being limited to one off games, we'll rate it SITUATIONAL
  • If the difference between the two ships is evident in almost every single game, we'll rate it as COMMON.
  • If this difference is is remarkable in multiple situations within the same game, we'll rate it as FREQUENT.

 

Then we'll also rate it by how useful this particular difference is.  Again, we're not measuring how useful a particular trait is -- merely the difference between North Carolina and Alabama.  We'll use a 3-star system.

  • If the difference doesn't really matter or it's so difficult to see the applicable difference, it will get one heart.
  • If the difference provides a marginal gain that's easy to measure by in game effects, it will get two hearts.
  • If the difference provides an overwhelming advantage that are self evident, it will get three hearts.

 

North Carolina has more Hit Points

Alabama has 63,300hp.  North Carolina has 66,000.  This is a difference of 2,700hp, or approximately one penetrating hit from any Battleship gun (regardless of caliber she might face).  As an added benefit, North Carolina now heals 378 more hit points per Repair Party charge.  This provides no additional protection from fires and floods, however.

  • Frequency:  FREQUENT.  You're always going to see the benefits of having more hit points.  Anytime you take damage, anytime you use a healing potion, North Carolina will pay you back with her larger health pool.
  • Utility:    While having more hit points is nice, the difference isn't enough to tip the balance in all but those rare occasions where you ALMOST die but that extra buffer of hit points keeps a North Carolina alive while an Alabama would founder.

 

Alabama has better armour

The armour values of Alabama are measurably better than North Carolina, with a thicker belt, thicker deck armour, etc.  Alabama has better angles too.

  • Frequency:  FREQUENT.  Like North Carolina's hit points, Alabama's armour is going to come into play every time you come under fire.
  • Utility:    Like North Carolina's hit point advantage, a marginal increase in armour values, such as the difference between North Carolina and Alabama are negligible.  The level of protection gained by Alabama's better armour layout would be difficult to spot over the course of several games. 

 

Alabama has better torpedo protection

Alabama's anti-torpedo bulges reduce the damage of incoming torpedoes by 49%.  North Carolina only reduces said damage by 19%.

  • Frequency:  SITUATIONAL  While torpedo hits aren't infrequent, the combination of taking a torpedo hit AND it striking the ship on the anti-torpedo bulge aren't as commonplace.
  • Utility:  ♥♥  This is an A+ advantage over North Carolina -- the ability to just shrug off half of a torpedo's damage can turn taking the equivalent of two AP citadel penetrations from an enemy battleship down to just one. 

 

North Carolina's guns have slightly less vertical dispersion

North Carolina has 2.0 sigma while Albama has 1.9 sigma.  This makes North Carolina's guns less likely to overshoot and undershoot her targets.

  • Frequency:  FREQUENT.  Every time you fire the guns, this effect kicks in.  If you're the superstitious sort, anytime you overshoot or undershoot your target in Alabama, you'll probably wonder if you had made the same shot in North Carolina if it would have hit with that slight improvement to dispersion (hint:  The answer is "probably not," but don't tell our chimp brains that).
  • Utility:  ♥♥ I debated giving this one heart, but more accurate is more accurate. 

 

Alabama's guns have a faster turret traverse

Alabama's guns rotate 4.5º per minute.  North Carolina's manage 4.0º per second.

  • Frequency:  FREQUENT.  Anytime you lay the guns on target, you'll feel the difference.  Alabama tracks and shifts targets much better than North Carolina, and this will occur several times per game.
  • Utility:  ♥♥  Half a degree per second doesn't feel like much, but it does allow Alabama the advantage of being able to bring her guns to bear more quickly than North Carolina can, making her less shy of heavy manoeuvres.

 

North Carolina's guns have more range

Alabama's maximum range (without modifications) caps out at 21.1km.  North Carolina can reach out to 23.3km.

  • Frequency:  COMMON
  • Utility:    Neither Alabama's nor North Carolina's guns perform anywhere near optimally at these ranges.  They both perform much better at medium ranges -- up to about 16km.  However, this does let North Carolina get the first shot off at extreme ranges without the use of a consumable.  Odds are she will fire at extreme ranges at once per game.

 

North Carolina's anti-aircraft guns are better distributed and she has slightly more average AA DPS

When the two ships come under air-attack, their flak load-outs are very similar with the same caliber of guns and same ranges.  The difference is that North Carolina has the slight edge in more DPS and favours her 40mm Bofors over the 20mm Oerlikons that Alabama enjoys.

  • Frequency:  RARE.  Anytime you're under air attack or swatting down a spotter aircraft or fighter, this kicks in.  Carrier game play isn't rare, but it it's not uncommon to play a handful of games and not really have to worry about shooting anything down.  However, the time where the difference between AA power between these two ships is anywhere noticeable IS rare and deserves to be rated as such.
  • Utility:    You are never going to notice the difference in AA power between these two vessels.  The 18dps difference works out to a 1% difference in the chance to shoot down a Lexington's Avenger torpedo planes.  For this gain to be applicable, you'd need to suffer 100 air attacks and maaaaybe you might have shot down more planes than Alabama.  Maybe.  You might have to suffer 1,000 air attacks to spot the difference.  Perhaps if Wargaming overhauls how AA guns work, it might be more significant.  It might be different if the difference were 5 times as much it might be a useful difference.  As it is, it's downright cosmetic.

 

Alabama is more manoevrable with a shorter rudder-shift time and smaller turning circle

So far as I've been able to test, Alabama is the most agile Battleship at tier 7+ in the game currently, and not by a small margin either.

  • Frequency:  FREQUENT
  • Utility:  ♥♥  This is another A+ advantage Alabama has over North Carolina.  When it comes to angling, setting up shots, dodging shells, torpedoes or planes, Alabama is hands down better setup than North Carolina. 

 

North Carolina has a smaller surface detection range than Alabama

North Carolina has a 500m stealth advantage over Alabama when it comes to surface detection.

  • Frequency:  COMMON
  • Utility:  ♥♥♥  No contest here.  This is North Carolina's best advantage over Alabama.  It primarily comes into effect during the initial stages of a match, but it's not uncommon to forgo stealth entirely because your guns are kept active.

 

Alabama has a smaller aerial detection range than North Carolina

Alabama has a 500m stealth advantage over North Carolina when it comes to aerial detection.

  • Frequency:  COMMON
  • Utility:    I'll bet you never notice the difference.

 

So taken like this, we get the following break down between the two ships:

 

North Carolina's biggest strength is her smaller surface detection range.  She is also less likely to overshoot or undershoot her target with her guns and there may be the odd, one-off game that her 2,700hp advantage comes into play for some miraculous, holding-on-by-the-fingernails survival advantage.  Her advantages of better reach and AA power aren't worth getting excited about.

 

Alabama's biggest strength is her excellent handling.  It's very easy to keep Alabama's guns on target and to evade enemy attack.  Arguably, this allows her to make better use of her marginally superior armour protection and excellent torpedo defense, though the latter is applicable only occasionally.  Alabama's smaller aerial detection range and armour layout aren't really bragging rights, though.

 

The big difference between the two ships is how they mitigate damage.  Alabama subscribes to an active means -- she dodges and positions herself to her advantage. North Carolina relies on using range and silencing her guns to take advantage of her better concealment to mitigate damage.  This makes Alabama the more survivable of the two, all things being equal, without sacrificing firepower to any significant degree.  There is a lot of overlap between the two ships.  The differences are not a vast gulf.  They'll play in a very similar manner.  However, it is my opinion that given the active nature of Alabama's defense, she is the superior vessel.  North Carolina's advantages do not come into play as often or as strongly as needed to best Alabama.

Edited by LittleWhiteMouse
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Well, let's go over those points and which ones matter (and by how much).  We'll rate these by two measures.

 

First, we'll rate by how often this particular trait is applicable.  Note, we're measuring how often the difference between the two traits is useful and applicable, not by how a given system is used.  For example, if we were comparing Warspite's bonus heals through her Repair Party, then we would see it as "Frequent" as her Repair Party gets activated several times per game and will always generate more HP than other ships. 

  • If it's applicable so rarely as to be laughable, we'll rate it RARE.
  • If highly situational, being limited to one off games, we'll rate it SITUATIONAL
  • If the difference between the two ships is evident in almost every single game, we'll rate it as COMMON.
  • If this difference is is remarkable in multiple situations within the same game, we'll rate it as FREQUENT.

 

Then we'll also rate it by how useful this particular difference is.  Again, we're not measuring how useful a particular trait is -- merely the difference between North Carolina and Alabama.  We'll use a 3-star system.

  • If the difference doesn't really matter or it's so difficult to see the applicable difference, it will get one heart.
  • If the difference provides a marginal gain that's easy to measure by in game effects, it will get two hearts.
  • If the difference provides an overwhelming advantage that are self evident, it will get three hearts.

 

North Carolina has more Hit Points

Alabama has 63,300hp.  North Carolina has 66,000.  This is a difference of 2,700hp, or approximately one penetrating hit from any Battleship gun (regardless of caliber she might face).  As an added benefit, North Carolina now heals 378 more hit points per Repair Party charge.  This provides no additional protection from fires and floods, however.

  • Frequency:  FREQUENT.  You're always going to see the benefits of having more hit points.  Anytime you take damage, anytime you use a healing potion, North Carolina will pay you back with her larger health pool.
  • Utility:    While having more hit points is nice, the difference isn't enough to tip the balance in all but those rare occasions where you ALMOST die but that extra buffer of hit points keeps a North Carolina alive while an Alabama would founder.

 

Alabama has better armour

The armour values of Alabama are measurably better than North Carolina, with a thicker belt, thicker deck armour, etc.  Alabama has better angles too.

  • Frequency:  FREQUENT.  Like North Carolina's hit points, Alabama's armour is going to come into play every time you come under fire.
  • Utility:    Like North Carolina's hit point advantage, a marginal increase in armour values, such as the difference between North Carolina and Alabama are negligible.  The level of protection gained by Alabama's better armour layout would be difficult to spot over the course of several games. 

 

Alabama has better torpedo protection

Alabama's anti-torpedo bulges reduce the damage of incoming torpedoes by 49%.  North Carolina only reduces said damage by 19%.

  • Frequency:  SITUATIONAL  While torpedo hits aren't infrequent, the combination of taking a torpedo hit AND it striking the ship on the anti-torpedo bulge aren't as commonplace.
  • Utility:  ♥♥  This is an A+ advantage over North Carolina -- the ability to just shrug off half of a torpedo's damage can turn taking the equivalent of two AP citadel penetrations from an enemy battleship down to just one. 

 

North Carolina's guns have slightly less vertical dispersion

North Carolina has 2.0 sigma while Albama has 1.9 sigma.  This makes North Carolina's guns less likely to overshoot and undershoot her targets.

  • Frequency:  FREQUENT.  Every time you fire the guns, this effect kicks in.  If you're the superstitious sort, anytime you overshoot or undershoot your target in Alabama, you'll probably wonder if you had made the same shot in North Carolina if it would have hit with that slight improvement to dispersion (hint:  The answer is "probably not," but don't tell our chimp brains that).
  • Utility:  ♥♥ I debated giving this one heart, but more accurate is more accurate. 

 

Alabama's guns have a faster turret traverse

Alabama's guns rotate 4.5º per minute.  North Carolina's manage 4.0º per second.

  • Frequency:  FREQUENT.  Anytime you lay the guns on target, you'll feel the difference.  Alabama tracks and shifts targets much better than North Carolina, and this will occur several times per game.
  • Utility:  ♥♥  Half a degree per second doesn't feel like much, but it does allow Alabama the advantage of being able to bring her guns to bear more quickly than North Carolina can, making her less shy of heavy manoeuvres.

 

North Carolina's guns have more range

Alabama's maximum range (without modifications) caps out at 21.1km.  North Carolina can reach out to 23.3km.

  • Frequency:  COMMON
  • Utility:    Neither Alabama's nor North Carolina's guns perform anywhere near optimally at these ranges.  They both perform much better at medium ranges -- up to about 16km.  However, this does let North Carolina get the first shot off at extreme ranges without the use of a consumable.  Odds are she will fire at extreme ranges at once per game.

 

North Carolina's anti-aircraft guns are better distributed and she has slightly more average AA DPS

When the two ships come under air-attack, their flak load-outs are very similar with the same caliber of guns and same ranges.  The difference is that North Carolina has the slight edge in more DPS and favours her 40mm Bofors over the 20mm Oerlikons that Alabama enjoys.

  • Frequency:  RARE.  Anytime you're under air attack or swatting down a spotter aircraft or fighter, this kicks in.  Carrier game play isn't rare, but it it's not uncommon to play a handful of games and not really have to worry about shooting anything down.  However, the time where the difference between AA power between these two ships is anywhere noticeable IS rare and deserves to be rated as such.
  • Utility:    You are never going to notice the difference in AA power between these two vessels.  The 18dps difference works out to a 1% difference in the chance to shoot down a Lexington's Avenger torpedo planes.  For this gain to be applicable, you'd need to suffer 100 air attacks and maaaaybe you might have shot down more planes than Alabama.  Maybe.  You might have to suffer 1,000 air attacks to spot the difference.  Perhaps if Wargaming overhauls how AA guns work, it might be more significant.  It might be different if the difference were 5 times as much it might be a useful difference.  As it is, it's downright cosmetic.

 

Alabama is more manoevrable with a shorter rudder-shift time and smaller turning circle

So far as I've been able to test, Alabama is the most agile Battleship at tier 7+ in the game currently, and not by a small margin either.

  • Frequency:  FREQUENT
  • Utility:  ♥♥  This is another A+ advantage Alabama has over North Carolina.  When it comes to angling, setting up shots, dodging shells, torpedoes or planes, Alabama is hands down better setup than North Carolina. 

 

North Carolina has a smaller surface detection range than Alabama

North Carolina has a 500m stealth advantage over Alabama when it comes to surface detection.

  • Frequency:  COMMON
  • Utility:  ♥♥♥  No contest here.  This is North Carolina's best advantage over Alabama.  It primarily comes into effect during the initial stages of a match, but it's not uncommon to forgo stealth entirely because your guns are kept active.

 

Alabama has a smaller aerial detection range than North Carolina

Alabama has a 500m stealth advantage over North Carolina when it comes to aerial detection.

  • Frequency:  COMMON
  • Utility:    I'll bet you never notice the difference.

 

So taken like this, we get the following break down between the two ships:

 

North Carolina's biggest strength is her smaller surface detection range.  She is also less likely to overshoot or undershoot her target with her guns and there may be the odd, one-off game that her 2,700hp advantage comes into play for some miraculous, holding-on-by-the-fingernails survival advantage.  Her advantages of better reach and AA power aren't worth getting excited about.

 

Alabama's biggest strength is her excellent handling.  It's very easy to keep Alabama's guns on target and to evade enemy attack.  Arguably, this allows her to make better use of her marginally superior armour protection and excellent torpedo defense, though the latter is applicable only occasionally.  Alabama's smaller aerial detection range and armour layout aren't really bragging rights, though.

 

The big difference between the two ships is how they mitigate damage.  Alabama subscribes to an active means -- she dodges and positions herself to her advantage. North Carolina relies on using range and silencing her guns to take advantage of her better concealment to mitigate damage.  This makes Alabama the more survivable of the two, all things being equal, without sacrificing firepower to any significant degree.  There is a lot of overlap between the two ships.  The differences are not a vast gulf.  They'll play in a very similar manner.  However, it is my opinion that given the active nature of Alabama's defense, she is the superior vessel.  North Carolina's advantages do not come into play as often or as strongly as needed to best Alabama.

 

So in essence they nailed what the South Dakota Class was compared to North Carolina. A more compact more nimble ship with similar guns and armor. Perfect. 

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crzyhawk    2,907

 

Honestly may be I have a screwed perspective, because I'm apparently Top 15 in WTR for her in Ranked this season. However, I took her because my best Cruiser Captain was USN, and between the Pensacola, Atlanta, and the Indianapolis she's the best choice. Out of those ships the Indianapolis clearly has the best tool kit and survival ability. Regardless if you agree or not, their is no way the Indianapolis doesn't end up above the Pensacola in a Tiered system because she simply brings Radar, which the Pensacola does not. Not to mention her 6 forward guns give her more forward fire power to effectively angle off and hunt down ships sitting in smoke.

 

It isn't a fair assessment of the Indianapolis to say she cannot effectively engage the Belfast because of the danger of approaching her within Radar range assumes that this is done in open water. However, this isn't necessarily true. The Belfast will seldom fail to smoke up in open water, but instead usually does it near island formations, making it possible to sneak up on her and engage her broadside where she cannot effectively escape without taking massive damage. The Belfast can certainly do her damage, but she must shift her guns to respond.

 

If the Atlanta is considered a better ship then the Flint because of Radar, then surely the Indianapolis represents a ship that is better than the Pensacola because of Radar. The Atlanta also cannot bring to bear the alpha damage the Indianapolis can bring to bear to punish ships caught by her radar. While the Atlanta may be better against the DDs, she isn't nearly as effective against a Belfast or Fiji, and also has less health than the Indianapolis.

 

That isn't to say the Indianapolis is a good ship, as she certainly leaves a lot to be desired in terms of toughness, but she certainly wasn't a bad ship to bring in ranked thanks to the toolkit she was able to provide where other ships, especially the CAs were lacking.

 

There were also other issues with this list, such as having the Nagato as top tier and having the Gneis and Schanhorst spread out lower than her over two Tiers under. 

 

I just don't think the guy is as logically sound as his ego claims to be. I side with Lert, LWM, and Notser in terms of reviews simply because they provide a balanced approach to each ship, from what seems like a much more neutral starting point. 

 

I prefer the Pensacola to the Indianapolis for two reasons:  Target area, and maneuverability.  Indy is simply easier to hit, and even if they are not cits, they are 33% pens.  I do not feel like Pensacola is a good choice for ranked either, but if you held a gun to my head, I would likely take P'cola.  I do not believe in Indy's radar as being a game changer due to INdy's positioning requirements.  Getting her in close enough for it to make a difference in a ranked enviornment is practically suicide.  I have /never/ been radar'd in my Belfast by an Indy, be it ranked or random.

 

I prefer Atlanta to Indy because she's significantly stealthier and she likes to operate in DD water with her fast traversing and fast firing guns.  She goes and can survive in places to make a difference.  I have been radared by Atlantas before.  I usually kill them for their trouble, but they can get into position when well played and I make mistakes.  I prefer Atlanta to Pensacola, but not by much. 

 

Indy is a perimeter fighter.  CAs seem to work the best in that role.  I did well with an ARP Ashigara on my alt account, but I had to play much less aggressively.  It worked in the lower leagues, but I think that effectiveness would have dropped off, had I continued past r15 with that ship.  I'm glad you had success with an Indy.  Most of the ones I saw in ranked were the first ship dead, every time.  They /were/ rare though, I only saw 2-3.  I thought about taking mine out and giving it a shot due to the radar, and decided against it for the reasons I posted above.  I simply did not believe I'd ever get it into position for the radar to make a difference, and I figured I'd lose to a well-played Belfast anyways (I'd give Indy better odds vs Fiji) given how easily I usually shred Indys when they challenge my Belfast.  Indy is simply a ship that I would not recommend with any conscience at all.  I can't do it.

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Gomez_Adams    710

I am not a Flamu fan at all I just posted this to point out that even he now thinks its a good ship. 

 

It's only a good ship if they implement changes he wants. Even if it is a good ship, if they don't do what he wants done to it, it's a bad ship.

 

That's the Flamu way. The guy is completely worthless and has the credibility of a three-card Monte game.

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Grizley    1,281

 

It's only a good ship if they implement changes he wants. Even if it is a good ship, if they don't do what he wants done to it, it's a bad ship.

 

That's the Flamu way. The guy is completely worthless and has the credibility of a three-card Monte game.

 

Sorry, he has orders of magnitude more credibility than you do.  You might think he's an [edited].  Fine.

 

You have to admit that he's good at the game and gives some of the most unbiased reviews out there.  He doesn't paint over problems, he doesn't hype up strengths that aren't really there.  He doesn't act like he's a member of the WG sales team the way some reviews seem to.  If you think he's worthless and has no credibility that says more about you than it does about him.

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crzyhawk    2,907

 

Well, let's go over those points and which ones matter (and by how much).  We'll rate these by two measures.

 

First, we'll rate by how often this particular trait is applicable.  Note, we're measuring how often the difference between the two traits is useful and applicable, not by how a given system is used.  For example, if we were comparing Warspite's bonus heals through her Repair Party, then we would see it as "Frequent" as her Repair Party gets activated several times per game and will always generate more HP than other ships. 

  • If it's applicable so rarely as to be laughable, we'll rate it RARE.
  • If highly situational, being limited to one off games, we'll rate it SITUATIONAL
  • If the difference between the two ships is evident in almost every single game, we'll rate it as COMMON.
  • If this difference is is remarkable in multiple situations within the same game, we'll rate it as FREQUENT.

 

Then we'll also rate it by how useful this particular difference is.  Again, we're not measuring how useful a particular trait is -- merely the difference between North Carolina and Alabama.  We'll use a 3-star system.

  • If the difference doesn't really matter or it's so difficult to see the applicable difference, it will get one heart.
  • If the difference provides a marginal gain that's easy to measure by in game effects, it will get two hearts.
  • If the difference provides an overwhelming advantage that are self evident, it will get three hearts.

 

North Carolina has more Hit Points

Alabama has 63,300hp.  North Carolina has 66,000.  This is a difference of 2,700hp, or approximately one penetrating hit from any Battleship gun (regardless of caliber she might face).  As an added benefit, North Carolina now heals 378 more hit points per Repair Party charge.  This provides no additional protection from fires and floods, however.

  • Frequency:  FREQUENT.  You're always going to see the benefits of having more hit points.  Anytime you take damage, anytime you use a healing potion, North Carolina will pay you back with her larger health pool.
  • Utility:    While having more hit points is nice, the difference isn't enough to tip the balance in all but those rare occasions where you ALMOST die but that extra buffer of hit points keeps a North Carolina alive while an Alabama would founder.

 

Alabama has better armour

The armour values of Alabama are measurably better than North Carolina, with a thicker belt, thicker deck armour, etc.  Alabama has better angles too.

  • Frequency:  FREQUENT.  Like North Carolina's hit points, Alabama's armour is going to come into play every time you come under fire.
  • Utility:    Like North Carolina's hit point advantage, a marginal increase in armour values, such as the difference between North Carolina and Alabama are negligible.  The level of protection gained by Alabama's better armour layout would be difficult to spot over the course of several games. 

 

Alabama has better torpedo protection

Alabama's anti-torpedo bulges reduce the damage of incoming torpedoes by 49%.  North Carolina only reduces said damage by 19%.

  • Frequency:  SITUATIONAL  While torpedo hits aren't infrequent, the combination of taking a torpedo hit AND it striking the ship on the anti-torpedo bulge aren't as commonplace.
  • Utility:  ♥♥  This is an A+ advantage over North Carolina -- the ability to just shrug off half of a torpedo's damage can turn taking the equivalent of two AP citadel penetrations from an enemy battleship down to just one. 

 

North Carolina's guns have slightly less vertical dispersion

North Carolina has 2.0 sigma while Albama has 1.9 sigma.  This makes North Carolina's guns less likely to overshoot and undershoot her targets.

  • Frequency:  FREQUENT.  Every time you fire the guns, this effect kicks in.  If you're the superstitious sort, anytime you overshoot or undershoot your target in Alabama, you'll probably wonder if you had made the same shot in North Carolina if it would have hit with that slight improvement to dispersion (hint:  The answer is "probably not," but don't tell our chimp brains that).
  • Utility:  ♥♥ I debated giving this one heart, but more accurate is more accurate. 

 

Alabama's guns have a faster turret traverse

Alabama's guns rotate 4.5º per minute.  North Carolina's manage 4.0º per second.

  • Frequency:  FREQUENT.  Anytime you lay the guns on target, you'll feel the difference.  Alabama tracks and shifts targets much better than North Carolina, and this will occur several times per game.
  • Utility:  ♥♥  Half a degree per second doesn't feel like much, but it does allow Alabama the advantage of being able to bring her guns to bear more quickly than North Carolina can, making her less shy of heavy manoeuvres.

 

North Carolina's guns have more range

Alabama's maximum range (without modifications) caps out at 21.1km.  North Carolina can reach out to 23.3km.

  • Frequency:  COMMON
  • Utility:    Neither Alabama's nor North Carolina's guns perform anywhere near optimally at these ranges.  They both perform much better at medium ranges -- up to about 16km.  However, this does let North Carolina get the first shot off at extreme ranges without the use of a consumable.  Odds are she will fire at extreme ranges at once per game.

 

North Carolina's anti-aircraft guns are better distributed and she has slightly more average AA DPS

When the two ships come under air-attack, their flak load-outs are very similar with the same caliber of guns and same ranges.  The difference is that North Carolina has the slight edge in more DPS and favours her 40mm Bofors over the 20mm Oerlikons that Alabama enjoys.

  • Frequency:  RARE.  Anytime you're under air attack or swatting down a spotter aircraft or fighter, this kicks in.  Carrier game play isn't rare, but it it's not uncommon to play a handful of games and not really have to worry about shooting anything down.  However, the time where the difference between AA power between these two ships is anywhere noticeable IS rare and deserves to be rated as such.
  • Utility:    You are never going to notice the difference in AA power between these two vessels.  The 18dps difference works out to a 1% difference in the chance to shoot down a Lexington's Avenger torpedo planes.  For this gain to be applicable, you'd need to suffer 100 air attacks and maaaaybe you might have shot down more planes than Alabama.  Maybe.  You might have to suffer 1,000 air attacks to spot the difference.  Perhaps if Wargaming overhauls how AA guns work, it might be more significant.  It might be different if the difference were 5 times as much it might be a useful difference.  As it is, it's downright cosmetic.

 

Alabama is more manoevrable with a shorter rudder-shift time and smaller turning circle

So far as I've been able to test, Alabama is the most agile Battleship at tier 7+ in the game currently, and not by a small margin either.

  • Frequency:  FREQUENT
  • Utility:  ♥♥  This is another A+ advantage Alabama has over North Carolina.  When it comes to angling, setting up shots, dodging shells, torpedoes or planes, Alabama is hands down better setup than North Carolina. 

 

North Carolina has a smaller surface detection range than Alabama

North Carolina has a 500m stealth advantage over Alabama when it comes to surface detection.

  • Frequency:  COMMON
  • Utility:  ♥♥♥  No contest here.  This is North Carolina's best advantage over Alabama.  It primarily comes into effect during the initial stages of a match, but it's not uncommon to forgo stealth entirely because your guns are kept active.

 

Alabama has a smaller aerial detection range than North Carolina

Alabama has a 500m stealth advantage over North Carolina when it comes to aerial detection.

  • Frequency:  COMMON
  • Utility:    I'll bet you never notice the difference.

 

So taken like this, we get the following break down between the two ships:

 

North Carolina's biggest strength is her smaller surface detection range.  She is also less likely to overshoot or undershoot her target with her guns and there may be the odd, one-off game that her 2,700hp advantage comes into play for some miraculous, holding-on-by-the-fingernails survival advantage.  Her advantages of better reach and AA power aren't worth getting excited about.

 

Alabama's biggest strength is her excellent handling.  It's very easy to keep Alabama's guns on target and to evade enemy attack.  Arguably, this allows her to make better use of her marginally superior armour protection and excellent torpedo defense, though the latter is applicable only occasionally.  Alabama's smaller aerial detection range and armour layout aren't really bragging rights, though.

 

The big difference between the two ships is how they mitigate damage.  Alabama subscribes to an active means -- she dodges and positions herself to her advantage. North Carolina relies on using range and silencing her guns to take advantage of her better concealment to mitigate damage.  This makes Alabama the more survivable of the two, all things being equal, without sacrificing firepower to any significant degree.  There is a lot of overlap between the two ships.  The differences are not a vast gulf.  They'll play in a very similar manner.  However, it is my opinion that given the active nature of Alabama's defense, she is the superior vessel.  North Carolina's advantages do not come into play as often or as strongly as needed to best Alabama.

 

I think this analysis is pretty much spot on.  It highlights what Flamu completely neglected to mention as a strength for the Alabama:  Her maneuverability.  I think that comes down to playstyle.  in the videos that I have watched of Flamu's play, he doesn't move a lot.  He likes to find a good, strategic position, and deny that position to anything that he can get LOS on.  he's got a very campy playstyle.  For that playstyle, the NC is absolutely a better ship thanks to the hit points and sigma.  NC has a higher skill floor, and potentially a slightly higher ceiling.

 

For someone with less patience and more raw aggression such as myself, the Alabama's better armor and maneuverability mean a lot more.  I like to stay on the move, so maneuverability is life.  Alabama now has a lower skill floor, which I think is key.  Sure, the ship has a lower skill ceiling too, but most players will never take advantage of NC's advantages properly.  Alabama has tools that are more useable by a wider variety of skill level players, and that makes it the better ship.

Edited by crzyhawk

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