IcyThor

Sunk by bots

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Last night I got sunk TWICE by bots in Co-op games.  I have only been playing a few days and was using Co-op to sharpen my shooting skills.  I thought the bots were programmed to be a nuisance, hitting me occasionally.  Last night they swarmed me like hungry mosquitoes.  That's when I started working on evasion skills as well.  Maybe, the bots knew I was gaining more experience so they did a better job against me?

 

 


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The bots have been increasing their skills with each patch. No free rides in co-op.


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You're ascribing a lot more intelligence to bots than they have. They're just programmed to drive forward and shoot at what's lit, prioritizing destroyers. That's all.


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You're ascribing a lot more intelligence to bots than they have. They're just programmed to drive forward and shoot at what's lit, prioritizing destroyers. That's all.

 

What they lack in intelligence, they make up in sharpshooting skills. If they can't sink you, they will attempt to ram you. My advice is to run the moment you sight them and start shooting. They will follow you like a dog after a treat.

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The bots cheat. Try to play a torp boat as i done once. They ALWAYS point the bow of the ship to you if you lock the target, dont matter if you are spotted or not.


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You're ascribing a lot more intelligence to bots than they have. They're just programmed to drive forward and shoot at what's lit, prioritizing destroyers. That's all.

 

The part about bots targeting DD is correct. I've tested this and when i was 13km away from a bot and friendly ships were within 2km of this bot, the bot picked my ship as the target and ignored the closer ships. How does this figure into the bot program thinking?

There is something hidden in the bot programming.


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Posted (edited) · Report post

Bots cheat in avoiding torpedoes. That said, they are stupid and easy to beat at lower tiers.

They push relentlessly and do not shoot/torp into smoke.

 

At higher tiers (starting at T7) they become strong and know how to shoot and cit you. AT T1-T5 they are very predictable.

 

They like to ignore what they were doing (even capping) when they see a DD and they will do a conga line to follow.

 

Friendly (green) bots know where they reds are at the beginning. If you want to find them early, just follow them. They have this annoying custom of ramming each other and committing suicide early.

Edited by alexf24

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The bots cheat. Try to play a torp boat as i done once. They ALWAYS point the bow of the ship to you if you lock the target, dont matter if you are spotted or not.

 

Easy to counter:

Target

Line up the torp shot

X to break target

Fire

Unless the bot was going to turn anyway following its pre-determined path, or someone else fires torps at it without doing this trick (and therefore triggers an evasion) the bot will sail right into your torps every time. 

 

Longer explanation:

The AI knows when you hit the fire button on torps and the ship targeted at the time has a chance to evade right then and there. If you fire with no target, it won't evade. By "chance" to evade on launch, you might notice this almost never happens at low tier and almost always does at high tier. This is because each time you fire a torp at a targeted bot, it does a little dice roll behind the scenes to see if it notices. The higher tier the bot, the more likely it is to notice. 


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Easy to counter:

Target

Line up the torp shot

X to break target

Fire

Unless the bot was going to turn anyway following its pre-determined path, or someone else fires torps at it without doing this trick (and therefore triggers an evasion) the bot will sail right into your torps every time. 

 

Longer explanation:

The AI knows when you hit the fire button on torps and the ship targeted at the time has a chance to evade right then and there. If you fire with no target, it won't evade. By "chance" to evade on launch, you might notice this almost never happens at low tier and almost always does at high tier. This is because each time you fire a torp at a targeted bot, it does a little dice roll behind the scenes to see if it notices. The higher tier the bot, the more likely it is to notice. 

 

Hey maybe I will finally try Coop after all to explore this.

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The part about bots targeting DD is correct. I've tested this and when i was 13km away from a bot and friendly ships were within 2km of this bot, the bot picked my ship as the target and ignored the closer ships. How does this figure into the bot program thinking?

There is something hidden in the bot programming.

 

I wonder if there's a class system built in.  Like cruisers will prioritize DDs and BBs will prioritize cruisers.  I've had BBs switch their focus from a DD within a few km to me in my Atlanta at 15km on several occasions.

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If you want some hilarity, try playing a co-op game in a Kharabovsk. ALL the enemy have the range to shoot at you if they see you, and they WILL do so. 

 

It's an extreme dodge simulator.

 


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You're ascribing a lot more intelligence to bots than they have. They're just programmed to drive forward and shoot at what's lit, prioritizing destroyers. That's all.

 

Lert, you are largely correct, but don't sell them short, either.  It is a bit more complicated than that.

 

They will tend to move forward until someone is sighted (and they likely use a form of the Radio Position Finding captain skill because they will tend to know the general direction of where the closest or last remaining player is).  Once one or more people are sighted, they have targeting priorities which are based on proximity and health.  The closest, lowest health target will generally get top priority, which is why DDs tend to be prioritized.  Because they all use the same targeting AI, they also tend to focus fire better than players.  However, they will change focus from a low health target once it gets far enough away that another ship, even one with higher health, gets close enough.

 

There are other factors as well.  For instance, once they get close enough, they don't just drive in straight lines.  They will make course changes, which leads a lot of people to accuse WG of programming it so they know when they launch torpedoes.  In reality, they just are doing what players should be doing, changing course periodically to avoid torpedoes they should assume are already coming at them.

 

 

They also predict target impact points by taking the player's course and speed into account.  This leads a lot of people to accuse them of using "aim hax."  In reality, if they did not do that, they would just be firing randomly in some general direction of a ship and never hitting anything.  Again, it is just doing what a player should be doing, aiming where it thinks the target will be when the shells land.  As with alleged "aim bots" in PvP (or just players who aim well), this means they are fairly accurate against players who do not frequently employ the counter WASD hack.  It also makes them especially dangerous when more than one of them are shooting at you, which is almost always the case because, as mentioned, they all employ the same targeting logic.

 

I am not saying that bots are not predictable or not easier in general than players.  The difference in the average win rate in Coop vs. PvP is proof enough of that.  However, neither are they just driving in straight lines waiting to die.  I hear "You are your team's last hope," way too often for that to be the case.

 

Edited by Sotaudi

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I wonder if there's a class system built in.  Like cruisers will prioritize DDs and BBs will prioritize cruisers.  I've had BBs switch their focus from a DD within a few km to me in my Atlanta at 15km on several occasions.

 

It might be carried over from the Rock, Paper, Scissors meta in the past.  Edited by Cruiser_Kumano

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The part about bots targeting DD is correct. I've tested this and when i was 13km away from a bot and friendly ships were within 2km of this bot, the bot picked my ship as the target and ignored the closer ships. How does this figure into the bot program thinking?

There is something hidden in the bot programming.

 

They target based on health and proximity, not just proximity.  In that same circumstance, a really low health battleship will take priority over a healthy DD closer in given the right mix of health and proximity.  As to the "thinking," it is no different than what players do.  You eliminate the easy to kill targets first to reduce the number of guns shooting at you.


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They target based on health and proximity, not just proximity.  In that same circumstance, a really low health battleship will take priority over a healthy DD closer in given the right mix of health and proximity.  As to the "thinking," it is no different than what players do.  You eliminate the easy to kill targets first to reduce the number of guns shooting at you.

 

In my experience, that's not the way the bots function. They prioritize destroyers over everything else, regardless of range or threat.

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I wonder if there's a class system built in.  Like cruisers will prioritize DDs and BBs will prioritize cruisers.  I've had BBs switch their focus from a DD within a few km to me in my Atlanta at 15km on several occasions.

 

About 75% of the time the very 1st ship that shoots at a bot, all the bots will target and follow that ship. If it is a DD they will follow and track that DD no matter where the DD goes 100% of the time.

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About 75% of the time the very 1st ship that shoots at a bot, all the bots will target and follow that ship. If it is a DD they will follow and track that DD no matter where the DD goes 100% of the time.

 

I'm talking more about later in the match.  If I remember, I'll try to find a replay when I get home.  It is not uncommon for BBs to completely ignore short range DDs and target long range cruisers.

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You're ascribing a lot more intelligence to bots than they have. They're just programmed to drive forward and shoot at what's lit, prioritizing destroyers. That's all.

 

just like players, except players are programmed to ignore destroyers.

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Easy to counter:

Target

Line up the torp shot

X to break target

Fire

Unless the bot was going to turn anyway following its pre-determined path, or someone else fires torps at it without doing this trick (and therefore triggers an evasion) the bot will sail right into your torps every time. 

 

​Surprisingly, I use that tactic in randoms...

 


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Some Ai computer systems can actually be intelligent and creative in their battles against you so it is possible for Wargaming to make CO-OP ships get smarter, it's just a question if they want the Ai to get that tough or not.

I have spent enough time outwitting even highly intelligent game Ai over last few years I am not too worried lol.

Edited by Admiral_Thrawn_1

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Skynet is learning......

 

My thoughts exactly. I've got a call in to Arnold to see if he can help us out.:B They are a helluva lot better players than they were a year ago. I stick with random mainly these days unlesss I'm just playing a few relaxing low tier games. When I want stress I play random which is 98% of the time these days.:angry:

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Easy to counter:

Target

Line up the torp shot

X to break target

Fire

Unless the bot was going to turn anyway following its pre-determined path, or someone else fires torps at it without doing this trick (and therefore triggers an evasion) the bot will sail right into your torps every time.

 

Longer explanation:

The AI knows when you hit the fire button on torps and the ship targeted at the time has a chance to evade right then and there. If you fire with no target, it won't evade. By "chance" to evade on launch, you might notice this almost never happens at low tier and almost always does at high tier. This is because each time you fire a torp at a targeted bot, it does a little dice roll behind the scenes to see if it notices. The higher tier the bot, the more likely it is to notice.

 

This exactly, +1! Yeah got tired of bots turning the second torps were off and then read in forums somewhere about this trick. Works well when you remember to do it. They still have a chance of not being hit now, the second they detect your torps they start turning so it is more like shooting at human players without the "intuition" of knowing there is a torp armed ship, expect torps, that humans have.

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The other thing about the bots is that they always know where you are, even if you're not spotted. They can't shoot you unless you're lit, but they always know where you are.

 

--Helms


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In my experience, that's not the way the bots function. They prioritize destroyers over everything else, regardless of range or threat.

 

Sorry to get back to this late, but I wanted to run some battles in my Okhotnik to give some specific examples rather than just speaking in generalities, and this is the first time I had a chance to respond.

 

I have screen shots of both examples I am going to discuss, but I don't use any sites that allow you to link pictures, and I am too lazy to go out and set something up.

 

In any case, in the first battle, I am out in the open and not in smoke 4.3km from one enemy Kongo and 5.3km from the other.  My detection warning is up, and has been for a bit, but nether ship is targeting me (I have Priority Target on this captain).  There is a Cleveland and a Kongo on my team further back and to my right.  There is a T-22 on my team that is almost as close as me, but just behind an island.  Just prior to this point in time, both BBs were, in fact, aiming at me, but they shifted focus and fired at the ships behind me.

 

In the second battle, I am, again, out in the open without smoke.  In the distance there is an enemy battleship in a fight with two of our battleships.  I am beyond my concealment range, but because I have been using my guns, My detection bloom is large enough to include, not just that BB, but two other enemies.  As before, the detection icon is warning me that I am visible, but I have no ships targeting me, and that icon has been up for some time.

In both cases, if they always prioritized DDs, that would not have been the case.  This is especially true in the latter example since I was the only DD on the team.  That is, I was not just the last surviving DD on my team, I was the only DD in the match from the beginning (obviously, not counting my doppelganger on the bot team).

 

Those are just two examples, but with almost 4,800 Coop battles, I can tell you without hesitation that this is far from uncommon.  I know a lot of people are convinced that bots do prioritize DDs over all else, but one of the reasons I prefer Coop over Randoms is that, if you understand how bots prioritize, you can manage aggro just like you can in an MMORPG.  DDs are no exception.  Yes, DDs get more than their "share" of focus, but this is not because they are DDs.  It is because DDs fall into the health and proximity calculations more frequently than other classes.

Edited by Sotaudi

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