Bismark vs Nagato & Bismark vs Colorado

[Schwieger]

I had originally planned on having the Scharnhorst replace the Bismark in these two match-ups, however after careful consideration I switched to Bismark. For both of these scenarios, which ship is likely to win, and by how much of a margin?

[Windhover118]

I think Colorado would defeat Bismarck. Both ships had similar armor protection but the Colorado had larger caliber guns. Bismark might have a slight edge in accuracy but this wouldnt be much since the Colorado was modernized with radar directed fire control. The Fire control directors on the Bismarck were very vulnerable to enemy fire as seen in her final battle against the British fleet. Both ships would take a beating but Colorado would probably be able to reduce Bismark to the point where she couldnt fight anymore. Even though Bismarck was a more modern ship, she had several design flaws which could potentially even the playing field.

[Capcon]

From years of table top gaming in many systems the ships are very closely matched regardless of the rules set or simulation but the bigger gun prevails more often than not. Just a few, or even a single, hit can put one ship at a disadvantage that they can't come back from. Bismark's weak stern section, as simulated by rudder hits or maneuverability reductions from hits often leads to it's destruction. Colorado is usually at a slight disadvantage as both the smallest and slowest of the three. But all that propulsion machinery in the other two is vulnerable and very often one 16"/45 hit and the speeds are back to even. Make the US ship the West Virginia as reconstructed and I'll take it in a straight fight against either of the others. Though a lucky early hit from any of the three could give it the win.

[JeeWeeJ]

Capcon, on 02 November 2012 - 02:06 PM, said:

Though a lucky early hit from any of the three could give it the win.

This pretty much. All ships are capable of defeating eachother, but it takes a few lucky hits (Hood anyone?) to decide the outcome.

[Capcon]

So in the interest of prolonging the discussion we could make some assumptions of no major disruptions in:

Command - no bridge hit that kills the whole staff

Fire Control - no Main Director hit in the first first few minutes

Maneuverability - no rudder sticking hit in the middle of a sharp turn

things like that.

 

Just a slugfest, heavy guns pounding heavy armor until one ship succumbs.

 

Now what's the outcome?

[Elouda]

Double post due to mobile browser fail. Disregard this, sorry.

[Elouda]

Ill run some IZ numbers for them when I get back home tommorow, and dig up some gunnery, etc. specs.

 

 

My general feeling though, including all factors, is;

Rebuild WV > Rebuilt Colorado = Bismarck > Rebuilt Nagato > Original Colorado = Original Nagato

[Gigaton]

Due to Bismarck being somewhat to much faster she will be capable of closing in with the other ships in order to make full use of her heavier side protection scheme, and to minimize underwater and deck hits. Bismarck's belt around waterline is 320mm + additional 110mm (the sides of the main deck) sloped back at about 68 degrees from vertical (or 294mm line of sight). That, or the shell hits the horizontal part of the deck at impractical angle, or simply explodes before impacting the main deck. This side protection scheme isn't exactly trivial to breach. There is very little to realistically flood above the main deck, so breaching it (or going around it) is required if one wishes to actually sink the ship.

 

This applies especially to Colorado. Nagato, with the diving shells, is better equipped to handle Bismarck's protective scheme. This is both due to greater chance for deep underwater hits and due to the longer fuze delay. Both older ships can still disable Bismarck, of course, by knocking out the guns, directors and by wrecking the ships above the main deck. Being difficult to sink by gunfire may not be that much of an advantage in one-on-one (though protection for machinery spaces and main magazines still applies regardless).

[Krusmark]

Not to pee in anyones fruitloops, but I would add the Colorado had torpedo firing capability the Bismark did not....and the Biz didn't take it so well the fisrt time...just sayin'! :Smile_trollface:

[Schwieger]

That was from a "lucky hit." Of the other torpedoes that were shot at her, there isn't any proof that those actually damaged Bismark.

[Windhover118]

Schwieger, on 09 November 2012 - 05:17 AM, said:

That was from a "lucky hit." Of the other torpedoes that were shot at her, there isn't any proof that those actually damaged Bismark.

No proof that they actually hit. Although given what we know about the torpdoes fired by the RN destroyers in Bismarks final engagment, we can assume that even if they had hit, they wouldnt have caused enough damage to sink Bismark. As you said, that one Torpedo was a lucky hit.

[Krusmark]

Windhover118, on 09 November 2012 - 05:20 AM, said:

No proof that they actually hit. Although given what we know about the torpdoes fired by the RN destroyers in Bismarks final engagment, we can assume that even if they had hit, they wouldnt have caused enough damage to sink Bismark. As you said, that one Torpedo was a lucky hit.

This would be because the Brits, God Love 'em, didn't  pack their torpedoes with much punch. The Swordfishes "fish" carried an approximately 400lb charge. The American surface ship torpedoes Mk15,17 carried twice that much punch (+) of a non TNT explosive which made a bigger mess. Additionally the torpedoe hits did do damage to the Biz. Not sayin they sunk her but they caused electrical damage and minor flooding and yes the lucky hit. In any case the Biz's achilles heel is the stern as it was with the Prinz Eugen. Structural weak point so to speak. Remember the game accounts for damage and flooding too. Besides it was just a friendly reminder, one torpedo with a range of 14000yds is not an optimal range for big gun fights but depending on placement in a given scenario, still a possibility that could be...stingy!! Guess we'll see what the Devs come up with for ships and scenarios.


Just realized I never did pick, sooo......COLORADO, in both, for the win....because,..... thats why!! :Smile_playing:

[sharlin648]

A refitted (post pearl) Tennassee would probably be a serious challenge for a Bismark class vessel, the gun size difference isn't huge and the shells are both heavy enough to harm one another.  Any battleship can be a threat to another, hell even HMS Dreadnought could be a prickly foe for the Bismark if they bumped into each other, no matter who you are you don't want to be hit by 12 inch and above rounds.