Battlecruiser_Renown

'Sky Cancer Hell Weekend' really shines a light on why CVs are so broken.

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Holy crap am I tired of seeing carriers. Admittedly, you run into them a lot more at lower tiers, but playing my Yamato, bumping into a tier IX or X carrier is... pretty rare. Like, maybe 1 in 7 or 8 games, if I'm lucky. But this weekend? This weekend I am lucky to see a game without. And it has been... illuminating.

 

Getting torpedoed and shot at is a way of life for a Yamato captain. Your ship turns about as well as a freight train with a steering wheel, you're slow, your AA blows... so not only are you being primaried by everything under the sun, but it's just a flat-out bad ship for carrier warfare. If there's a carrier in a match I'm in, I expect he's going to hurt me - especially if our CV isn't very good. So I don't really have a problem with getting nailed by carriers per se; encounters with these venomous pit vipers are rare, and chances are pretty good they suck.

 

Basically, this post isn't specifically a battleship whine.

 

Rather, I'm tired of being a carrier teammate who is consistently let down by such an important roleplayer in our fleet. As an example, a couple of games ago, we had a match with a pair of tier IX CVs. Their CV had fighters, and was doing his best to stay fairly close to the action (keeping his squadron cyclic rate high), while nuking priority targets. Our CV, on the other hand, sailed in the opposite direction, had no fighters, and spent almost a full third of the match time sending his four squadrons on an exhaustive pan-global jaunt in an enormous circle route to the north, all to commit a single strike on their carrier that didn't even take half his health. The squadrons were decimated on their return trip. So, while the enemy carrier racked up 3 kills and something like 180k damage, our's spent the rest of the map ineffectually performing attacks on an Iowa.

 

Bravo.

 

And this is the problem with carriers. Because their presence in a game represents such an enormous potential to influence outcome, having a dud CV is faaaaaar worse than say, a crap cruiser, or a pitiful destroyer. Potato teammates are just a thing in WoWs - I get that; I know. They are, mercifully, a thing on both sides. But it's very, very difficult for me to reconcile the unicum vs. tater debate when you're talking about carriers. And that's what's wrong. That's what's broken. These units have too high a skill cap, too low a basement, and too much influence on the ebb and flow of gameplay.

 

So I'm completely fine with eating a full spread of torpedoes because I got tunnel vision - poop happens. But I am really, really exhausted with being let down by the poor play of a single teammate who can't carry his own immense weight.

 

Edited by IJN_Hyuga

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Which is why they're redoing CVs to fix the disparity between players.

 

I'd argue though that having complete potato BBs on your team is almost as bad. 


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You know what gets me about CV mission weekends?

I take out my AA cruisers to farm plane kills,,,,I mean protect my fleet from Sky Cancer and I barely see one CV let alone be able to down planes. 

But Take a ship with weak AA defense and those scrubby CVs are all over me. 

I need a way to cloak my Cleveland or Atlanta so it looks like a defenseless Destroyers or clueless Battleship. 


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Posted (edited) · Report post

The solution to that problem in my opinion is to increase the CV population. Currently, most CV players are either unicums who have been playing carriers for a very long time, or potatoes who don't have much experience. By making CVs a more attractive option, you can increase the number of average-ish players, making the likelihood of a complete imbalance of skill less likely. 

 

At least WG is supposedly trying to raise the skill floor of carriers by making the UI better, so perhaps that will help a bit although I'm not entirely convinced that it will do much. The USN vs IJN balance also needs to be looked at, because it is clear that IJN CVs are outperforming their counterparts by a large margin at certain tiers. 

Edited by Aduial

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These units have too high a skill cap, too low a basement, and too much influence on the ebb and flow of gameplay.

 

And this is why every unicum CV player will come out and whine about how every suggested rework, or way to fix CVs is a nerf.

 

Because for them, it is.

 

Any solution to CVs has to cut down the skill ceiling, and for those at that ceiling, it'll be a huge nerf, regardless what it does for people at the floor.

 

Removing manual drops will absolutely acheive the goal of narrowing the floor vs ceiling.

 

Unicms will oppose it because it'll prevent them from roflstomping as hard as they do now, and singlehandedly carrying games.

 

Of course, they can't admit that that's the reason, they'd look like elitist d-bags.

 

So what do they say instead? "This will take all the skill out of playing CVs". Ignoring the fact that positioning, target selection, and attack timings make up a far greater piece of the overall puzzle than "dropping well".


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I need a way to cloak my Cleveland

 

I used to think the same about my AA spec Cleveland until an unicum CV player violated me so hard I couldn't even stay and watch the rest of the game. 

on topic: OP, you had a bad game with bad CV ally against a good CV enemy, it happens, it is not the end of the world. Skill ceiling for all classes should stay as high as possible.


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The solution to that problem in my opinion is to increase the CV population. Currently, most CV players are either unicums who have been playing carriers for a very long time, or potatoes who don't have much experience. By making CVs a more attractive option, you can increase the number of average-ish players, making the likelihood of a complete imbalance of skill less likely. 

 

At least WG is supposedly trying to raise the skill floor of carriers by making the UI better, so perhaps that will help a bit although I'm not entirely convinced that it will do much. The USN vs IJN balance also needs to be looked at, because it is clear that IJN CVs are outperforming their counterparts by a large margin at certain tiers. 

 

Making the UI better for easier UI play is really going to be best for IJN CVs.  The real thing hindering them from getting even stronger than they are over USN CVs is that they eventually juggle a lot of units compared to USN ones.  Micromanagement.  But then again, the sheer number of units is what makes them so strong.

 

Take Strike Hiryu 2/2/2.  That is a lot of units to handle.  It's also a lot of functions to worry about.  In this single spec, you have to be proficient in fighter and attack play.  You'll be doing manual strafes, TB drops, DB drops, all while still sending your fighters around to intercept and scout around.  Less experienced players will flub this up pretty good.

 

Take Air Superiority Ranger 2/0/2.  Much simpler to play, much more easy to focus your efforts because you have 2 less squadrons and you do not worry about 1 of the unit types.  For this spec, no TBs so no worry about manual TB drops.  Just fighter and DB use.  Very easy to grasp and start going to work.

 

But then what happens when the IJN CV player gets a grasp on how to juggle all those controls and functions?  Well, that's when the large unit counts really start to shine and the IJN CV at that point IMO, becomes like an octopus as it does many things at the same time.  You've seen it.  That proficient IJN CV that is establishing air superiority, strafing away enemy bombers, sending bombers around the map nuking guys.  The proficient IJN CV player feels like he's everywhere.  The simpler, more limited ability of the USN CVs I see typically cannot keep up with that.

 

But easier to use controls?  It lessens that time for the IJN CV to cross that threshold and be proficient.  Unless CV rebalancing occurs, the IJN CVs will be IMO, even more dominant over USN ones.


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Skill ceiling for all classes should stay as high as possible.

 

How about no?

 

Skill ceilings shouldn't be identical, but there are reasonable limits.

 

Having one class with a massively high skill ceiling vs everything else ultimately makes the game crap for 23 people so that one person can have slightly better stats, whenever someone can exploit that ceiling.


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It's your trade-off for being able to lol-pen literally every other ship. If you had a more capable CV captain on your side of  the match, he'd of kept fighters near you. Of you could pick out  a baltimore / desmoines / hindenburg / minotaur in the beginning and ask for AA cover. 

 

I would much, much rather have more CV's per match in 9/10 gameplay to help off set the STUPID number of DD's in queue. I'm so sick and tired of 4-5 dd's in T9/10 matches.


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CVs are great in game. I think the variety in game is very good.

 

It's just the ability to 'balance' the choice that's out there.

 

I do feel sorry for the good CV players who have worked hard to learn their craft, but a little like the BBs and new players needing to be protected from planes, torpedoes, fire and invisifire - lesser skilled CV  players need to be protected from the good ones as the CV is a game changer.

Edited by _WaveRider_

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And this is why every unicum CV player will come out and whine about how every suggested rework, or way to fix CVs is a nerf.

 

Because for them, it is.

 

Any solution to CVs has to cut down the skill ceiling, and for those at that ceiling, it'll be a huge nerf, regardless what it does for people at the floor.

 

Removing manual drops will absolutely acheive the goal of narrowing the floor vs ceiling.

 

Unicms will oppose it because it'll prevent them from roflstomping as hard as they do now, and singlehandedly carrying games.

 

Of course, they can't admit that that's the reason, they'd look like elitist d-bags.

 

So what do they say instead? "This will take all the skill out of playing CVs". Ignoring the fact that positioning, target selection, and attack timings make up a far greater piece of the overall puzzle than "dropping well".

 

That's actually an interesting concept. It would definitely even out the playing field CV vs CV. My concern would be that it would make CVs even less popular due to it being pretty damn easy to dodge auto-dropped torps. Maybe in conjunction with that buff the speed of airdropped torps to make it harder to dodge auto-drops? 

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Skill ceilings shouldn't be identical, but there are reasonable limits.

 

 

 

Take a look at the top of competitive gaming scene, games that made their way up there have extremely high skill ceiling or basically have no ceiling at all. WoWs on the other hand gets dumbed down with game mechanics getting removed and none being added, while wanting to have a competitive side. So yea, let's have reasonable limits and reasonably 'meh' game.

Edited by m373x

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Lol lets just make when a cv enters the game all they do is drive the ship and bot planes


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learn to dodge! it helps a lot!:P

 

>Yamato

>dodge aerial drops

pick one


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It's because there is only one CV consistently that you notice it and believe it to be more significant. It's similar if MM puts 1 vs 0 DDs, or 1 vs 0 BBs, but that does not happen often. The "potatoes" are always there, but being the only one driving a CV makes it more apparent.

 

Also it's not always/entirely a CV player's fault for AA. Limited squads and/or limited ammo, combined with "CV spot here, CV spot there", makes it difficult to completely counter a strike. One should not fully rely on a CV to do your bidding, the player is thinking about and managing several things, making what he/she believes to be the best decision.


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Last night a Taiho hunted down my DD with 3 full torp squadrons then crossed dropped all 3, it would take an act of God to survive that attack. At the end of the match he had 6kills. It was frustrating yet impressive to see how a skilled cv player can solo carry and wreck havoc all across the map with ease.

Edited by giovybez

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And this is why every unicum CV player will come out and whine about how every suggested rework, or way to fix CVs is a nerf.

 

Because for them, it is.

 

Any solution to CVs has to cut down the skill ceiling, and for those at that ceiling, it'll be a huge nerf, regardless what it does for people at the floor.

 

Removing manual drops will absolutely acheive the goal of narrowing the floor vs ceiling.

 

Unicms will oppose it because it'll prevent them from roflstomping as hard as they do now, and singlehandedly carrying games.

 

Of course, they can't admit that that's the reason, they'd look like elitist d-bags.

 

So what do they say instead? "This will take all the skill out of playing CVs". Ignoring the fact that positioning, target selection, and attack timings make up a far greater piece of the overall puzzle than "dropping well".

 

Seems to be a big conflict in your post.  How can removing manual drops have such a big effect, if it's positioning, targeting, and timing that are the major factors?  If manual drops are what allows carries and roflstomps, it's kind of a major factor.

 

The funny thing is - I don't disagree that manual drops need some re-works, although we likely disagree on the exact nature of them.  But, manual drops are the only type that really are a threat, if you have any situational awareness at all.


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https://wowreplays.com/Replay/31940

 

This game from last night is exactly why I do not like CV's. Our CV is no slouch, in most other ships. Checking out his page, he is a very good player in most ships, but faced off against the very, very good enemy Shokaku, there was just no hope for this round. Even though we had players in all of our other ships that were theoretically stronger....

 

There were a few mistakes early on that helped out. One of our strongest cruiser players was deleted early. We let a Benson have free reign to harass myself and our FDG for the whole game, just to name a few. But, based on the skill levels of the other players, we should have easily had this round, the CV changed all of that.

 

I really believe that 66% of your chance of winning or losing is solely on the back of your CV. And that is where they aggravate me. I feel like nothing more than fodder on the playing field while the two CV drivers play their own game against each other, while farming token damage off the other 11 players.


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Which is why they're redoing CVs to fix the disparity between players.

 

I'd argue though that having complete potato BBs on your team is almost as bad. 

 

It's a problem because Battleships make up 1/2 the teams now. You need your battleships to counter their battleships due to HP pools alone. If your Battleships fall flat you can't come back from the loss of their DPS.

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Which is why they're redoing CVs to fix the disparity between players.

 

I'd argue though that having complete potato BBs on your team is almost as bad. 

 

​Bad DD players are worse.

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​Bad DD players are worse.

 

bad DD player will make you lose early

bad BB player will make you lose late

bad CV player is instant loss.


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bad DD player will make you lose early

bad BB player will make you lose late

bad worse CV player is instant loss.

 

FTFY...

 

Your CV player does not have to be red to lose the game for you before the countdown even finishes. Just not as good as the other guy.


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