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Taichunger

Alternative Approaches to getting rid of invisifire

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I am not in favor of removing invisifiring for DDs, an important source of damage for the lowest damage, least survivable ships in the game. Cruisers I have no problem with losing invisifiring. 

 

Let me propose several solutions:

 

1. RNG roll: each time you invisifire, RNG rolls against a threshold chance. You're spotted with 20 sec gun bloom if you fail. Chance rises as number of salvos rises.

 

2. Another approach would be to have a detection range that quickly decays, as danredda 1616 suggested:
 

"My thoughts have always been that the stealth fire should be replaced with a decaying detection range upon firing. So for instance when you fire your detection range is huge. Within a short period of time after firing, the detection range decays at a rate of Xkm per Yseconds. THis would provide an additional balance parameter for the developers to play with aswell having DDs with really fast detection reduction, while BBs have slow. This sort of a detection reduction could allow certain ships to sorta stealthfire, with only a small window of detection so long as they don't continuously fire. A ship coming in and out of detection is difficult to target, but still possible as compared to no detection at all."

 

3. Still another approach: turn spotter planes into actual spotter planes. Use them to spot invisifiring ships. When a spotter is launched, it gets a wide detect radius in which it can spot all ships that fire in open water (stealthed ships not firing/smoked ships would not be spotted). This would them extremely useful -- instead of orphaned appendages as they often are in many cases. Ships could rotate spotters just as they rotate smoke, and taking two of them via the Captain's skill would also be useful.Then when the DD invisifires, the ship's captain would choose whether or not the DD is spotted. Managing spotters would then become important, as would CV cooperation in preventing them from being killed/killing them. WG could then retain invisifiring for DDs, with meaningful risk for all involved.

 

4. Remove invisifiring from cruisers and BBs only. Retain it for DDs. Reduce the invisifiring window for DDs to some arbitrary number, like at most 2 kms, or 1.5 kms. That would reduce its impact, but still enable a well played DD to get in some damage.

Edited by Taichunger
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Someone remembers my suggestion!!!! :D

 

Clearly biased towards number 2 :P

 

For instance, this could be balanced with USN late-tier DDs (smokeless powder) having a detection reduction rate of 500m/s. Meaning that 2s after firing, a gearing could be spotted at 10km. After ~10s that is down 5km off max detection now. (just an example, not real figures).

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There are some ships that rely on stealth fire and without it are not very good, these ships should continue to be able to do so in one manner or another. The current system isn't very good and is often used in an unfair manner but removing it completely is not the way to fix it as there are some ships whose performance will drop to unplayable levels if this change goes ahead. If they do intend to go along with this change there needs to at least be some form of compensation for ships that suffer negative affects due to this, increases in firing range, HP, or in the case of US ships improved firing arks will be needed to make many ships playable.

+1 to you for a great post that looks at this from a constructive point of view that isn't bias like many of the other posts on this subject

Edited by IJN_Cruiser_Jintsuu

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I completely agree that stealth fire for most cruisers is largely arbitrary and illogical, and also on the points that some DD's heavily rely on it. Really, I'm kinda curious to see how this all plays out. If WG is smart about it, there should be compensation for those DD's which need the mechanic in some fashion. If they are not smart about it, then we've just gotten another nerf to the DD class.

 

Edit: Oh, and +1 of course.  

Edited by RivertheRoyal

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I love it, no more DDs dumping invisible torps into my lane or plinking away with HE and getting RNG fires that I have to deal with. :trollface:

 

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I love it, no more DDs dumping invisible torps into my lane or plinking away with HE and getting RNG fires that I have to deal with. :trollface:

 

Since torps aren't effected, you'll likely see lots more stealth torp walls now...:trollface:

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I really like #3 as it would add a new aspect to the game instead of perpetuating the same old same old. It would also add a nice balancing aspect between spotters and fighters which incidentally would give WG some hard numbers as to just how many people really hate stealth fire. It would also make the new module that increases spotter duration more useful. One thing I would change tho is that spotters should no longer spot torps to balance them with fighters.

Edited by Rouxi

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I love it, no more DDs dumping invisible torps into my lane or plinking away with HE and getting RNG fires that I have to deal with. :trollface:

 

1. Torpedoes are not affected in the slighted by this change. In fact, they might become more common as USN DD captains turn away from guns when not in smoke.

2. Smoke is not affected, nor is the ability to fire from behind terrain. Meaning that DD's can still shoot you, you know? 

3. I'm guessing you are a BB main. Meaning that you'll have to deal with a bunch of pissed off DD captains after this change looking to blow off steam. I'm recommend you brush up on your WASD hacks.  

4. You could also be joking. I can't tell. 

Edited by RivertheRoyal

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Dan's option when talking about this I've always thought was the better option, though that it should be applied to all ships so your not spotted for a week after a salvo. Though naturally BB's would have a longer time detected still, the general concept is the best way without having to improve torpedo's on the other lines to the invisifire ranges IJN has. 3 I only see as an option if it's just planes in general can spot a firing DD, CV or mounted spotter. End of the day though, It needs to go from basically everything, especially the DD's and cruisers (a couple BB's can actually fire from cloak) because either of them spamming HE becomes an issue because fires are out of control and DD's have other advantages even cruisers don't have.Namely the lack of citadel with higher speed and mobility. 

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At minimum if detection range is tied to maxiumum range, destroyers should get reduced bloom time and battleships increased bloom time. After these changes it's still​ possible for BB to effectively engage at nearly full fire rate and be invisible for 1/3 to 1/2 of the time.

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I would very like to suggest the detection when firing gradually increase with continuous firing.

 

Like max firing range is 16km, initial detecting while firing is 13km. Then the second salvo increases it to 14, then 15 and finally 16 at the 4th salvo. Just an example...

 

While you are not firing, it gradually decreases...something like this...

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It screws over the IJN the hardest and doesn't affect the Russians at all, so of course WG will go through with it regardless of any community feedback.

 

I'm not confident about this mechanics change. I have a very strong suspicion that it's going to have pretty dire consequences for the game that WG is just too arrogant or blinded by baBBie tears to see.

Edited by Destroyer_Kiyoshimo
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1. Torpedoes are not affected in the slighted by this change. In fact, they might become more common as USN DD captains turn away from guns when not in smoke.

2. Smoke is not affected, nor is the ability to fire from behind terrain. Meaning that DD's can still shoot you, you know? 

3. I'm guessing you are a BB main. Meaning that you'll have to deal with a bunch of pissed off DD captains after this change looking to blow off steam. I'm recommend you brush up on your WASD hacks.  

4. You could also be joking. I can't tell. 

 

Hydro runs for 1:30 to 2:00 with Radar barely making it past 0:30. I also run Vigilance and TASM, so if DDs want to fire torpedoes I can see from miles away, they can be my guest. They try to take pot shots with their guns, they get smacked. There are very few headlands and DDs that have the arc that match up in such a way that a CL/CA or BB can't shoot them right back.

 

Smoke already has it's counters and I'm not to worried about it. So like I said, it's gravy. :trollface:

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Someone remembers my suggestion!!!! :D

 

Clearly biased towards number 2 :P

 

For instance, this could be balanced with USN late-tier DDs (smokeless powder) having a detection reduction rate of 500m/s. Meaning that 2s after firing, a gearing could be spotted at 10km. After ~10s that is down 5km off max detection now. (just an example, not real figures).

 

I really like this idea Dan. It brings in a whole new level of interesting and engaging strategy. Many destroyers are more likely to be willing to use their guns, as the question, "Can I afford to be spotted for 8 seconds?", is much easier and more dynamic than "Can I afford to be spotted for the next 20 seconds?".

 

It also brings in a new level of immersion. While I know this is an arcade, not a sim. Realistically, the muzzle blast from a 16"/50 with 600lbs of SPD propellant is going to hang around for much longer than one from a 5"/38 that is using 16lbs of SPDF propellant.

 

I completely agree that stealth fire for most cruisers is largely arbitrary and illogical, and also on the points that some DD's heavily rely on it. Really, I'm kinda curious to see how this all plays out. If WG is smart about it, there should be compensation for those DD's which need the mechanic in some fashion. If they are not smart about it, then we've just gotten another nerf to the DD class.

 

Edit: Oh, and +1 of course.  

 

I have never been a huge fan of firing from stealth in open water in anything. I do not believe the game should have been allowed to leave beta with any cruiser being able to do it from open water.

 

I understand the rebalancing destroyers that depend of stealth firing at any level is a huge project. And probably would not have been realistic to accomplish by the time the game transitioned to full release. There should have been a team working on it from day 1. Planning changes to all DD's that rely on stealth fire to go live at the same time that stealth fire is removed.

 

I do not believe that cruisers that are capable of stealth fire should be compensated for its removal. Considering that the one tier ten cruiser that is notorious for it, is performing better in all metrics than a certain T10 BB, and ALL other T10 cruisers for damage.

 

I love it, no more DDs dumping invisible torps into my lane or plinking away with HE and getting RNG fires that I have to deal with. :trollface:

 

 

Torpedo tubes do not produce a muzzle flash / blast. Therefor, do not incur a stealth penalty when firing. There will be no changes to the ability to torpedo from stealth. Other than more DD's that traditionally relied on firing their guns for stealth are going to fall back on torpedoes as their main source of damage.

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Well, since it may be forever or never before this invisifire gets modded, what are the best DDs to use for this purpose? Can't beat 'em, join 'em.

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