Myoko seems to have a broken citadel

[iRambL]

So I don't use replays due to issues with the game and the replay system that needs to be implemented already but I have noticed a grave error made by Wargaming with the Myoko and all of the reskins that i currently own from the ARP and Dragon ships. The citadel seems to run the length of the ship as I have been citadelled thru the rudder from the side multiple times. The citadel as modelled in game shows it only runs to just hitting the #5 gun and yet the rudder is another 40-60 feet (weird scaling) behind that. So why I ask you Wargaming does the citadel seem to run all the way to the rudder? I have had it happen multiple times to me and I'm fairly sure that even with AP fragmentation bullets or their fragments don't fly directly 90 degrees from the point of origin when the shell has forward momentum. 

 

I understand that the game is an arcadey style game but if they wanted to fly with historically accurate they would realize that the Myoko doesnt have that long of a citadel and it also doesn't sit up that high out of the water.

[MrEndeavour]

Overmatch mechanics. What is happening is that the shell pens the rear, the shell 'arms' and when it explodes it is in the citadel. So as the shell is counting down to explosion, it travels from the stern to the citadel area, penetrates the citadel, then explodes. Myoko is very tanky when compared to Schchors and Pensacola. I can assure you that the Myoko's Citadel is not broken. 

This is also why sometimes when shooting citadels on lightly armed ships, the shells will travel through the whole citadel, exit the citadel, and then explode. 

 

[Urandas]

Ok so what is probably happening here basic over-match mechanics. The shell is over matching the armor you have and it goes into your citadel from the deck. The armor is only good enough to not be overmatched by 8 inch shells, any bigger - Like battleship 14 and 16 inch - will overmatch your bow/stern.

[ckupf]

Also desync might have something to do with it, shells often look like they just miss when they hit or vice versa due to little bits of lag, server desync etc.

[GhostSwordsman]

No, OP is partially correct in his thinking.

 

8in gun magazines count as citadel zones(unlike 6in gun magazines), so heavy cruisers, in turn, have citadel space that runs a longer length of the ship compared to light cruisers. I feel this is part of the problem with high tier cruisers(T7+), as they have citadel space that runs nearly the entire length of the ship, rather than just around half if only the boilers and machinery spaces were counted.

 

Take for example a Cleveland and Aoba. One is a light cruiser, the other is a heavy cruiser. Strike the Aoba on the forward most turret or rear turret with AP at the waterline and you'll get a citadel. Do the same with Cleveland and you'll get over-pens and normal pens.

 

A more detailed explanation of what I'm getting at:

 

Let me illustrate why I think some(and myself) are wanting to try a change to citadel size for high tier cruisers.

 

Again, let me say that 6in gun magazines do not count as citadel zones, so light cruisers have a citadel that consists of the boilers/engines(the machinery spaces), whereas 8in gun magazines do count as citadel zones, so heavy cruisers have a citadel that consists of boilers/engines and gun mounts/magazines.

 

*note, these images are not exact measurements

 

 

 

 

 

Now, unfortunately even with a resolution of 1900x1080 I couldn't fit the entire ship into the screenshot. However, it still illustrates my point. Look at how much larger the citadel is for 203mm Mogami compared to 155mm Mogami. I would estimate that roughly 50% of the broadside of 155 Mogami is not a citadel, whereas roughly 30% of the broadside of 203 Mogami is not a citadel. In layman's terms, it's much easier to hit 203 Mogami's citadel, compared to 155 Mogami's citadel. This is generally(to my knowledge) the case for all 203mm(8in) gunned cruisers.

 

If you, or anybody else, was around about a year ago, when AFT was nerfed to no longer affect 6in guns, you might recall that one of the complaints about Mogami in particular was that with players being made to use the 203s over the 155s, Mogami felt squishier than she used to. This is because with the 203s, Mogami's citadel got larger, because 8in gun magazines are counted as citadel zones.

 

 

This is a broadside Myoko I'm shooting AP at in my Atago. As you can see, my shot was a bit off center and the shells landed aft of the boilers/engines.

Result of the shells landing under/near the 4th turret

 

So the shells landed right under the 4th gun turret(or just ahead of it, definitely behind the boiler citadel hitbox) and resulted in two citadel penetrations. If this had been a CL, I would have either over-penned or only gotten normal penetrations.

 

 

 

This is why I believe that a change to the citadel size of CAs, by making 8in guns(magazines) no longer count as citadel zones, is worth a look. It would reduce the size of the citadel, by a sizable margin, on high tier CAs, and make it more difficult to citadel them(mainly through the bow and stern) without outright removing the citadel entirely.

 

 

Edit: 2,000th post.

 

[Ulthwey]

So I don't use replays due to issues with the game and the replay system that needs to be implemented already but I have noticed a grave error made by Wargaming with the Myoko and all of the reskins that i currently own from the ARP and Dragon ships. The citadel seems to run the length of the ship as I have been citadelled thru the rudder from the side multiple times. The citadel as modelled in game shows it only runs to just hitting the #5 gun and yet the rudder is another 40-60 feet (weird scaling) behind that. So why I ask you Wargaming does the citadel seem to run all the way to the rudder? I have had it happen multiple times to me and I'm fairly sure that even with AP fragmentation bullets or their fragments don't fly directly 90 degrees from the point of origin when the shell has forward momentum. 

 

I understand that the game is an arcadey style game but if they wanted to fly with historically accurate they would realize that the Myoko doesnt have that long of a citadel and it also doesn't sit up that high out of the water.

 

If you think myokos citadel is bad, you may as well give up on IJN cruisers, because their citadels only get bigger as you go higher in tiers.

[Taichunger]

This is why I believe that a change to the citadel size of CAs, by making 8in guns(magazines) no longer count as citadel zones, is worth a look. It would reduce the size of the citadel, by a sizable margin, on high tier CAs, and make it more difficult to citadel them(mainly through the bow and stern) without outright removing the citadel entirely.

 

That is an excellent idea. 

[Carl]

No, OP is partially correct in his thinking.

 

8in gun magazines count as citadel zones(unlike 6in gun magazines), so heavy cruisers, in turn, have citadel space that runs a longer length of the ship compared to light cruisers. I feel this is part of the problem with high tier cruisers(T7+), as they have citadel space that runs nearly the entire length of the ship, rather than just around half if only the boilers and machinery spaces were counted.

 

Take for example a Cleveland and Aoba. One is a light cruiser, the other is a heavy cruiser. Strike the Aoba on the forward most turret or rear turret with AP at the waterline and you'll get a citadel. Do the same with Cleveland and you'll get over-pens and normal pens.

 

A more detailed explanation of what I'm getting at:

 

 

You might want to, you know, use the armour viewers separation options. You can see the citadel zones. Cleveland has a citadel section under the turrets same as aoba. It's pedestal mount 6" gun magazines that don't count as part of citadels, not all 6" magazines.

 

That sad, most cits i suffer and cause to cruisers are broadside ones. And thats just divergence angles at work, the further away the enemy is in general the narrower the divergence angle between two sources of incoming fire. Cruisers with their shorter ranges tend to suffer a disproportionate amount from being unable to hang back far enough to prevent someone in a BB being close enough to shoot at them and being far enough off to one side that they can't angle against both them and another BB. Ideally ofc you should avoid such situations but given BB vs CA ranges thats somtimes easier said than done.

 

Another factor that tends to result in me hammering a lot of cruiser drivers flat in my BB's is a serious lack of preemptive evasive maneuvering. They wait till they get hit to start maneuvering, and it leads to a lot of cruiser players getting hammered flat the instant they make a single positional mistake. But at the same time making a clsss rely on a skill that is depressingly poorly mastered by most is not a great idea IMO.

[GhostSwordsman]

 

You might want to, you know, use the armour viewers separation options. You can see the citadel zones. Cleveland has a citadel section under the turrets same as aoba. It's pedestal mount 6" gun magazines that don't count as part of citadels, not all 6" magazines.

 

 

Just because the armor around the magazine and barbette are modeled does not mean that striking and penetrating that armor will result in a citadel. That's what I'm getting at. CAs take citadel damage when barbettes or magazines are penetrated, CLs do not. The armor being modeled and visible with the armor viewer has nothing to do with that.

[VTAdmiral]

 

That is an excellent idea. 

 

When I pitched that exact same idea, the response was that it can't be done because it'd be a buff for Japanese cruisers, even though it actually helps all cruisers.

 

So I guess the rule is if it improves anything for the IJN we can't do it.

[Carl]

 

You might want to, you know, use the armour viewers separation options. You can see the citadel zones. Cleveland has a citadel section under the turrets same as aoba. It's pedestal mount 6" gun magazines that don't count as part of citadels, not all 6" magazines.

 

 

Just because the armor around the magazine and barbette are modeled does not mean that striking and penetrating that armor will result in a citadel. That's what I'm getting at. CAs take citadel damage when barbettes or magazines are penetrated, CLs do not. The armor being modeled and visible with the armor viewer has nothing to do with that.

 

Yes but if you limit the armour to citadel area it shows only the citadel hitbox and the armour around it.

[pwadoc]

 

Just because the armor around the magazine and barbette are modeled does not mean that striking and penetrating that armor will result in a citadel. That's what I'm getting at. CAs take citadel damage when barbettes or magazines are penetrated, CLs do not. The armor being modeled and visible with the armor viewer has nothing to do with that.

 

You can definitely citadel CLs by penetrating the barbettes. I regularly aim for the space under the turrets on lightly-armored CLs that are approaching me at an angle and score cits consistently.

[GhostSwordsman]

 

You can definitely citadel CLs by penetrating the barbettes. I regularly aim for the space under the turrets on lightly-armored CLs that are approaching me at an angle and score cits consistently.

 

If they're approaching at an angle, it's more likely that your shells are penetrating the flat face of the citadel(the boilers and engine rooms), rather than the barbettes for a citadel.

[VTAdmiral]

 

You can definitely citadel CLs by penetrating the barbettes. I regularly aim for the space under the turrets on lightly-armored CLs that are approaching me at an angle and score cits consistently.

 

You're not hitting the barbettes. You're hitting the engine spaces after overpenning the barbettes.

 

Fire up training room, get broadside to a CL, and fire under the turret without the engine space behind it. You will never score a citadel hit like that.

[Carl]

Go use GM3D. the cleavland is free to view, it has a module viewer showing where the citadel hitbox's are, they extend under the forward turrets, just as the armour viewer shows. Hitting them though because they're below the waterline (just like on the aoba), but they are there.