Way to properly balance the HE Shells in the game.

[Admiral_Thrawn_1]

After my first week in the game I have already heard a lot about the HE shell spamming and witnessed the damage and have to agree some adjustments need to be made, but I already know a solution I think will make everyone happy.

In World of Tanks Blitz HE shells can cause major damage, but only to weakly armored tanks it can penetrate. On well armored tanks it goes from doing hundreds in HP damage down to 5-100 depending on tier and gun size, the thing it can still do is damage tracks, view ports, and guns, basically just external things. So AP shells must be used and weak spots in armor found in order to do major damage.

 

I think the same system could be used in WOWs, so only weakly armored hills could actually be penned by HE and against stronger ships you would just cause damage to Turrets, Torpedo tubes, Aircraft catapults, Radar, various guns.

But no fires unless you can get a shell to pen the armored deck which would be unlikely since in WWII they had to fire AP shells to pen Battleship armor, and if you look at battle of Bismarck vs the HMS Hood Bismarck use AP shells and one went though deck of Hood caused a fire which spread after few minutes it set off amunition magazine. So we could still cause fires with AP just not every 30 seconds like you can currently.

Oh and before somebody points out what about Cruisers and Destroyers that have to fight Battleships and can't pen? Well those ships all carry highly deadly Torpedoes so they are by no means defenseless and HE firing at superstructure would still potentially cause enough damage to defenses that you would not get blown out of the water right away.

Let me know what everyone thinks of this idea because while WOWs is a highly balanced game the HE Shells are still unbalanced.

[Gaishu_Isshoku]

no

[Nuk_]

After my first week in the game

 

That's not nearly enough time to justify a suggestion of this scale.

[Submarine_Wahoo]

Oh and before somebody points out what about Cruisers and Destroyers that have to fight Battleships and can't pen? Well those ships all carry highly deadly Torpedoes so they are by no means defenseless and HE firing at superstructure would still potentially cause enough damage to defenses that you would not get blown out of the water right away.

Let me know what everyone thinks of this idea because while WOWs is a highly balanced game the HE Shells are still unbalanced.

 

That might be true at low tiers, but it's easy to AP pen at high tiers.

 

HE shells are not really as big of a deal as people make it. It definitely has a greater psychological impact since there is no proactive means of stopping a fire from starting, but the overall damage caused by HE and fires do not actually exceed AP. The damage caused by AP gets less fuss from players because there is a very clear, skill-based reason that the players are more likely to accept. HE doesn't have much skill attached, by comparison.

[Admiral_Thrawn_1]

 

That's not nearly enough time to justify a suggestion of this scale.

 

I have over 2 years worth of Blitz play and have burned a ton of ammo to know how it reacts and read many of the comments being made about the HE spam problem in WOWs, also I have gotten up to tier V already and am staring to see the point of the arguments being made after having my Battleships on fire in from bow to stern, using repair kit, then having same thing happen moments later when I know some of those enemy ships would Never get an HE shell into a flammable area of a Battleship because HE Shells lack the reinforced armor piercing shell casing which is how a shell pens armor.

 

Also if somebody has a better idea let's hear it?

[Nuk_]

Also if somebody has a better idea let's hear it?

 

Leave it the way it is.

[Admiral_Thrawn_1]

 

Leave it the way it is.

 

Let me guess you love spamming the HE?

[RivertheRoyal]

 

I have over 2 years worth of Blitz play and have burned a ton of ammo to know how it reacts and read many of the comments being made about the HE spam problem in WOWs, also I have gotten up to tier V already and am staring to see the point of the arguments being made after having my Battleships on fire in from bow to stern, using repair kit, then having same thing happen moments later when I know some of those enemy ships would Never get an HE shell into a flammable area of a Battleship because HE Shells lack the reinforced armor piercing shell casing which is how a shell pens armor.

 

Also if somebody has a better idea let's hear it?

 

This is a boats game. We do not use the same mechanics as a game involving tanks. 

 

Nothing is wrong with HE spam. In fact, if it's a problem for you, I'd consider positioning a good skill to have. Or, simply nuke the offending HE spammers. 

Good luck~

[Nuk_]

 

Let me guess you love spamming the HE?

 

I do.

 

I also love playing battleships, and HE isn't nearly the problem you make it out to be.

[Admiral_Thrawn_1]

 

This is a boats game. We do not use the same mechanics as a game involving tanks. 

 

Nothing is wrong with HE spam. In fact, if it's a problem for you, I'd consider positioning a good skill to have. Or, simply nuke the offending HE spammers. 

Good luck~

 

We still make use of Armor mechanics and shell fire so that is why I used the tanks as example because I have researched naval battle and seen similar results in real life battles.

[Naughtius_Maximus]

Torpedo hit rate is ridiculously low. Most of the reason comes because ships telegraph their torpedo drops.

 

 

If you made torpedo hit rate much higher, or flooding unremovable (damage control party only negates DoT during duration) then we might have something to talk about as an alternative to HE.

 

As it is anywhere that is not the belt of a BB is practically unarmored versus HE shells. Just like tanks ships have areas of high armor and the rest is near paper in comparison. Something even 5" guns can penetrate with HE.

[Admiral_Thrawn_1]

 

I do.

 

I also love playing battleships, and HE isn't nearly the problem you make it out to be.

 

How often dies your Battleship brawl at secondary gun range? I have found crossing the T as it is called to be fun against other ships since all my secondaries and main guns can fire on them, but only forward guns on them can be used. Which is how I have realized about the HE Shells...

[Reymu]

Given how hard it can be to damage a BB with cruiser/DD caliber guns' AP, as well as the general difficulty getting close enough to lob torps while getting shot at, HE has its general-purpose place.

 

What you're proposing sounds like making BBs stronger vs. HE in that fires require round to penetrate. What're cruisers and DDs to do? You obviously forget torps have a long reload time and are the hardest weapon in the game to use.

[Nuk_]

 

How often dies your Battleship brawl at secondary gun range? I have found crossing the T as it is called to be fun against other ships since all my secondaries and main guns can fire on them, but only forward guns on them can be used. Which is how I have realized about the HE Shells...

 

Brawling is basically the only thing I do in battleships, since I find sniping from range to be both boring and detrimental to the team.

[Naughtius_Maximus]

Yeah...get to a higher tier. Crossing the T is an ancient age of sail tactic that is a recipe for suicide.

 

You are basically getting at most 6 extra guns that likely won't cit in exchange for eating 4 citadels.

[RivertheRoyal]

 

We still make use of Armor mechanics and shell fire so that is why I used the tanks as example because I have researched naval battle and seen similar results in real life battles.

 

Well then. Let's take a step back, shall we? 

 

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure HE already has less chance to set fires against targets it doesn't penetrate, and there's a debuff on HE fire chance against higher-tier ships.

If you're having trouble with HE, then something's likely going on with your positioning, and playstyle.

 

 

How often dies your Battleship brawl at secondary gun range? I have found crossing the T as it is called to be fun against other ships since all my secondaries and main guns can fire on them, but only forward guns on them can be used. Which is how I have realized about the HE Shells...

 

NO. There are things wrong with this that I'm sure others will tell you about in great detail.  

[MrDeaf]

can you please stop spamming your asinine threads?

[yashma]

 

How often dies your Battleship brawl at secondary gun range? I have found crossing the T as it is called to be fun against other ships since all my secondaries and main guns can fire on them, but only forward guns on them can be used. Which is how I have realized about the HE Shells...

What?

 

Crossing the T is a horrible tactic.  It might work at low tiers, but once you progress farther crossing the T is going to get you nuked by AP the second you show broadside.  As a result at higher tiers a bow on angled camping meta has developed because AP decimates any ship that doesn't angle.  This is where and why the HE spam meta comes in.  

[yashma]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure HE already has less chance to set fires against targets it doesn't penetrate, and there's a debuff on HE fire chance against higher-tier ships.

 

You're partially wrong.  Higher tier ships do have higher fire resistance, 50% by tier 10, but HE shells have the same chance to start a fire regardless if they pen or not.  I have tested this myself, and supposedly it's also been confirmed by a dev as well, although I have not see it myself.

[Skpstr]

 

I have over 2 years worth of Blitz play and have burned a ton of ammo to know how it reacts and read many of the comments being made about the HE spam problem in WOWs, also I have gotten up to tier V already and am staring to see the point of the arguments being made after having my Battleships on fire in from bow to stern, using repair kit, then having same thing happen moments later when I know some of those enemy ships would Never get an HE shell into a flammable area of a Battleship because HE Shells lack the reinforced armor piercing shell casing which is how a shell pens armor.

 

Also if somebody has a better idea let's hear it?

 

Cruiser guns are equal to the biggest guns available on a select few tanks in WoT Blitz. Most of the tanks are armed with what would be secondaries on ships. You'd have been better served playing original WoT. Then you'd see what 6"-8" HE does to a tank. And consider that most BBs have fairly thin armor at bow, stern, and superstructure, typically 1"-2".

 

BBs have thick armor protecting their vitals and weapons, which resists AP and HE alike. Where HE is setting fires, the amount of armor is thin enough that AP shells pass right theough without detonating.

[RivertheRoyal]

You're partially wrong.  Higher tier ships do have higher fire resistance, 50% by tier 10, but HE shells have the same chance to start a fire regardless if they pen or not.  I have tested this myself, and supposedly it's also been confirmed by a dev as well, although I have not see it myself.

 

Eh, I'll take half credit. I just thought I heard something about shells shattering impacting the fire chances somewhat. Guess that was wrong. Thanks for the clarification. 

[LemonadeWarrior]

Play other ship classes please!

 

As others pointed out you miss the experience. Seems to me poor ship positioning...

[Zim_Xero]

 

I have over 2 years worth of Blitz play and have burned a ton of ammo to know how it reacts and read many of the comments being made about the HE spam problem in WOWs, also I have gotten up to tier V already and am staring to see the point of the arguments being made after having my Battleships on fire in from bow to stern, using repair kit, then having same thing happen moments later when I know some of those enemy ships would Never get an HE shell into a flammable area of a Battleship because HE Shells lack the reinforced armor piercing shell casing which is how a shell pens armor.

 

Also if somebody has a better idea let's hear it?

The reason for numerous complaints about HE is that it causes fires.  It is ussually BB drivers who complain that HE (fire) is overpowered.  The fact is only about 10% of the surface area of a BB is even vulnerable to HE damage.  Each fire does 20% erosion to health if its never put out.  Several commander skills mitigate this.. and everyone has the repair consumable, which can put out up to four fires plus flooding and any other damage you have.  The key is to know when to use your repairs, and to know when to use repair2 consumable on your BBs.  I understand that it might be embarassing for a big badass BB captain to get burnt to a cinder fighting a DD, but its a rare event, it takes a long time to occur... and to compensate.. BBs are well armored and hard to citadel by anything other than another BB.   

[Skyfaller]

 

I have over 2 years worth of Blitz play and have burned a ton of ammo to know how it reacts and read many of the comments being made about the HE spam problem in WOWs, also I have gotten up to tier V already and am staring to see the point of the arguments being made after having my Battleships on fire in from bow to stern, using repair kit, then having same thing happen moments later when I know some of those enemy ships would Never get an HE shell into a flammable area of a Battleship because HE Shells lack the reinforced armor piercing shell casing which is how a shell pens armor.

 

Also if somebody has a better idea let's hear it?

 

I've been saying for a long time that:

 

 

HE Shells:

- HE shells should not deal damage to the hitpoint pool of the ship if the shell does not penetrate the armor.

- HE shells that do not penetrate the armor would explode outside of the armor, delivering their full damage to whatever external component is inside its blast radius (AA guns, secondaries, torpedo launchers, radar masts*, ship bridge*, catapult plane launches*).

- HE shells should have ZERO chance of fire if they do not penetrate the armor (aka, fires would be internal only).

 

 

*= These new external components would 'de-buff' the ship if hit similar to how having a main gun or torp launcher knocked out from damage. Radar mast would prevent the ship from using radar even if the radar timer is up (must use damage control to repair the mast), hits on the bridge would blind your ship for a short amount of time.. you'd be unable to send or receive spotting information nor detect ships farther away than 3km's. Plane catapult damage would prevent the plane's from launching even if their timer is up and ready.. must use damage control party to repair it.

 

 

Fires:

- Fire should make a ship visible by +5km for every active fire.

- Fire damage should heal at a decent rate over time without the need for damage control party. Damage control party however, would fix any fire damage very quickly.

 

 

AP Shells:

- AP shells that overpen have a chance to inflict Flood if the shell punched through the ship below the waterline (entering or exiting the ship).

 

 

Citadel Damage:

Citadel damage currently is beyond ridiculous as it is a 'hit here for massive critical damage'. It damages gameplay by making cruisers be extremely easy to kill by battleships at nearly any range. A better system for Citadels would be that striking a citadel should cause 1/3rd of what a citadel hit does now in terms of hitpool damage... but it would also severely degrade the ship's performance plus have the flood chance be high (below waterline enter/exit penetrations only).

 

 

Degradation to ship performance would be a loss of engine power based on number of shells striking the citadel. Where before a ship taking 6 citadel hits at once would vaporize into oblivion, the ship now would lose a big chunk of hitpoints and basically lose all engine power and slowly drift to a halt in the water. Only repair party can fix the engine degradation effect.

 

 

This system effectively allows cruisers much more survivability when facing battleships and it allows battleships to cripple other battleships with citadel hits which allows cruisers to close in and finish the job. Remember HE now would hardly hurt BB's and cruiser AP only pens BB's at very close range so this allows the cruisers to close in for close range AP or torpedo attacks on other ships.

 

 

Now that AP shell overpens can cause floods it means cruisers and destroyers are at the extra risk of flood DOT damage from BB AP rounds (DD's particularly) and this counters the DD's current mostly-complete-immunity to damage from large caliber BB rounds.

[Swine_007]

After my first week in the game I have already heard a lot about the HE shell spamming and witnessed the damage and have to agree some adjustments need to be made, but I already know a solution I think will make everyone happy.

In World of Tanks Blitz HE shells can cause major damage, but only to weakly armored tanks it can penetrate. On well armored tanks it goes from doing hundreds in HP damage down to 5-100 depending on tier and gun size, the thing it can still do is damage tracks, view ports, and guns, basically just external things. So AP shells must be used and weak spots in armor found in order to do major damage.

 

I think the same system could be used in WOWs, so only weakly armored hills could actually be penned by HE and against stronger ships you would just cause damage to Turrets, Torpedo tubes, Aircraft catapults, Radar, various guns.

But no fires unless you can get a shell to pen the armored deck which would be unlikely since in WWII they had to fire AP shells to pen Battleship armor, and if you look at battle of Bismarck vs the HMS Hood Bismarck use AP shells and one went though deck of Hood caused a fire which spread after few minutes it set off amunition magazine. So we could still cause fires with AP just not every 30 seconds like you can currently.

Oh and before somebody points out what about Cruisers and Destroyers that have to fight Battleships and can't pen? Well those ships all carry highly deadly Torpedoes so they are by no means defenseless and HE firing at superstructure would still potentially cause enough damage to defenses that you would not get blown out of the water right away.

Let me know what everyone thinks of this idea because while WOWs is a highly balanced game the HE Shells are still unbalanced.

 

HE shells exist in the way they do because of game balance and game mechanics.  

 

WG wants every ship in a given match to be mostly effective against every other ship.  The nature of how WG wants the game to work is intrinsically different from Blitz.  You speak with frustration of fires and how HE shells are handled but that presupposes the concept of having ships in game unable to do any effective damage ( similar to some circumstances in Blitz ) is somehow better and/or less frustrating.     It just isnt.  

 

Firing HE shells as a game mechanic IS mostly balanced.  If you have only played a week you are not in a strong position to argue how it SHOULD work because you just have not had the chance to experience enough of the game to know.