Yes, the German DDs need some love

[Taichunger]

	Tier 8 DDs
	Z-23	Akizuki	Benson	Tashkent	Loyang	Fubuki	Kagero
1	61,486	93,062	81,249	85,960	60,884	71,502	58,804
2	49,799	81,890	70,931	84,494	59,140	58,701	54,432
3	47,206	77,244	65,939	79,842	57,552	58,126	53,703
4	46,807	68,682	69,363	78,760	54,582	57,862	51,304
5	48,869	72,860	67,336	69,448	52,442	57,063	50,939
6	43,525	75,389	63,329	60,013	51,621	55,791	50,412
7	42,709	73,664	63,568	57,226	51,396	55,590	48,944
8	42,469	73,460	60,955	56,952	51,306	54,748	48,535
9	41,379	72,611	60,478	55,313	50,865	54,249	48,365
10	37,333	67,986	64,082	54,265	50,668	53,786	47,769
	Tier 7 DDs
	Maass	Shira	Blys	Kiev	Sims	Hatsu	Akatsuki	Mahan
1	43,683	62,940	82,772	87,466	67,893	52,585	57,978	67,927
2	35,219	60,979	81,635	85,292	65,930	44,963	57,438	63,267
3	34,921	60,971	72,508	82,091	59,615	41,861	52,783	61,675
4	32,913	59,926	72,214	81,905	59,080	41,812	48,978	57,023
5	30,688	57,214	71,423	80,617	57,002	41,808	47,046	55,738
6	29,757	55,751	71,060	77,706	56,721	40,865	46,580	55,655
7	29,692	54,944	70,940	76,643	54,020	40,530	44,350	54,520
8	29,284	54,932	70,353	70,922	52,921	40,240	44,199	52,814
9	28,005	54,904	69,401	68,522	52,763	39,698	43,834	52,449
10	26,755	54,438	68,931	68,103	52,564	39,078	43,832	50,530

 

These are all time from Warships.Today, min 100 games. The top ten damage players for each ship. 

 

The average values show the German DDs doing ok, but it's these numbers that tell another story. The top ten damage players represent a kind of ceiling of what it is possible to do with the ship. And these numbers tell a grim story: the German DDs can't be made to yield the kind of damage all the other DDs at these crucial tiers can average.

 

There are a couple of caveats. One is that more people have played the other DDs, so there are more players with 100 games with high averages. Possible. But it still looks like even experienced players don't average very much. Removing that anomalous 61K damage average of the Z-23, and nobody is other 50K. The Maass is simply pathetic.

 

The second caveat is that since these ships are so meh, the best players aren't playing them. Looking at the other ships, it's a whos who: CatonBoard, Mesrith, KombatWombat, etc. Not so with the Germans, hardly any big names. But that is also true of the Akatsuki, which I've heard lots of negative remarks about. Yet it still beats Maass.

 

One thing that could be done to make the Germans better is buffs. At present you can wring damage out of them, but it is work. Buffs to range and smoke duration would be a good start. Pretty standard stuff.

 

But the buffs aren't the real issue. The problem is the German line from T6 on is pretty well balanced, so well balanced that every ship is meh. Almost all other lines have ships people look forward to: N Carolina, Bismarck, Zao, Fletcher, Shiratsuyu, Akizuki. The Germans are so well balanced that they don't have any ship with interesting quirks. There is nothing to look forward to. Why go up the line?

 

Might make the line more appealing if one or two ships above T5 were made more interesting, and the top tier DDs were powerful. 

[iHaveNoIntelligence]

Dev already said they are not buffing German DD except for Z-52 which might get some buffs.

Btw they are gonna rework those blooming after shot detection range when they rework invis fire.

[SteeLeviathan]

I like the german dd, but I guess you can say that they are punishing ships. They are very hard ships to get used to and often times it is easier to give up on them for other ships. I just wish the Z-52 could get 15mm like the z-23 and Gaede, as 15mm seems to be what is what attracts people to the line. That and the hydro but its hard to use the hydro in them when you get detected from half the map away. Hopefully the get the invisa fire fixed quick so that the german line might seem more viable.

[Grevester]

something has to be on the bottom, and just because it's new doesn't mean it has to be better.

[shoy07]

Agreed- 500 battles with Z52...takes a while to learn...had some great games 192k highest- luv her torps but like OP said, using hydro is situational and usually trying to cap and beginning and charging a enemy smoke to get in range for hydro-1 vs 1 khab, gearing is hard. if you can get a  broadside khab or gearing while using AP you can do some damage. Just got the Khab- she's amazing - totally different play style though.

[Show_Me_Your_Cits]

Dev already said they are not buffing German DD except for Z-52 which might get some buffs.

Btw they are gonna rework those blooming after shot detection range when they rework invis fire.

 

I wish they'd just leave it alone... Even on my stealth build invisiships, I'm rarely able to stealth fire because there's always something within range. The 7km bloom on the German DDs is beyond absurd (it literally more than doubles your detection range T8+), so much so that with 150s mounted you can't even hope to fight back. T8 needs the T9 range module as an option. 

[Show_Me_Your_Cits]

something has to be on the bottom, and just because it's new doesn't mean it has to be better.

 

There's a big difference between "on the bottom" and "not competitive at all."

 

Do you see *anyone* running them in Supermacy? 

[Ju87s]

 

 T8 needs the T9 range module as an option. 

What T9 range module?

[Show_Me_Your_Cits]

What T9 range module?

 

The 3 mil credit slot you get at T9 has a +range upgrade. 

[TenguBlade]

What T9 range module?

GFCS2.

 

Honestly, the gun bloom and nerfed-to-[edited] smoke are about all that would need correcting to make German DDs really good.  Chop the gun bloom down to Soviet DD levels, and restore the smoke to what it was, then, T-22 aside, you'd have decent ships.  T-22 is another story and needs an individual case study.

[Mahrs]

The German DD got me back DDing ...so, that was good. I powered through Ognevoi and loved it. Survived Kiev and am now anxiously awaiting the split. My enthusiasm and expectations for the Russian DD remain high. I'm back to USN DDing as well. I'm enjoying Sims, tolerating Mahan and excited for Benson. 

 

As for the KM DD? I don't even own one. No sex appeal. No excitement. The clincher: not impressive to play against. They're balanced all right. They are so balanced that if I play a USN or VMF DD to its strengths I should come out on top every time.

 

Caveat: this is all low to mid tier Shenanigans.

[Aduial]

I think I spot a small contradiction in your argument. First you argue that no one has an amazing performance in these ships, and then you point out that many of the best players aren't playing them. You have to argue that a. the players playing the German DDs are equally skilled as players playing other DDs, which therefore means that German DDs have a low skill ceiling or b. the best players aren't playing the German DDs, which means they don't have a high enough skill ceiling to seem attractive to the best players. Arguing both points at the same time makes no sense. 

[Captain_Dorja]

I wish people would label the data better when they make posts like this. Some of the tables are fairly self explanatory, but not nearly as much as original posters tend to think. After all, an OP is the one compiling their own data. Readers aren't doing that. I don't know what your tables mean. They are just big lists of meaningless numbers if I don't know how to properly interpret them.

[Aduial]

I wish people would label the data better when they make posts like this. Some of the tables are fairly self explanatory, but not nearly as much as original posters tend to think. After all, an OP is the one compiling their own data. Readers aren't doing that. I don't know what your tables mean. They are just big lists of meaningless numbers if I don't know how to properly interpret them.

 

It's explained very clearly right beneath the data. "The top ten damage players for each ship. "

[Taichunger]

I think I spot a small contradiction in your argument. First you argue that no one has an amazing performance in these ships, and then you point out that many of the best players aren't playing them. You have to argue that a. the players playing the German DDs are equally skilled as players playing other DDs, which therefore means that German DDs have a low skill ceiling or b. the best players aren't playing the German DDs, which means they don't have a high enough skill ceiling to seem attractive to the best players. Arguing both points at the same time makes no sense. 

 

Well, the top players dont play them. That says something in itself. But the top players also seem not to play Akatsuki. Yet it still has a higher damage ceiling.

 

My own view is that you need a reason to suffer through a line. But the German DDs don't really give you a reason to follow them up the line. It needs a quirky interesting ship somewhere in there.

[SireneRacker]

"Might make the line more appealing if one or two ships above T5 were made more interesting, and the top tier DDs were powerful."

 

I don't know, but isn't Hydro already appealing enough?

 

[Show_Me_Your_Cits]

 

Well, the top players dont play them. That says something in itself. But the top players also seem not to play Akatsuki. Yet it still has a higher damage ceiling.

 

My own view is that you need a reason to suffer through a line. But the German DDs don't really give you a reason to follow them up the line. It needs a quirky interesting ship somewhere in there.

 

The Z23 is that ship with 150s... Except it ends up gimped by the horrid smoke, fire bloom, massive AP damage sponge, and lack of range. 

[Show_Me_Your_Cits]

"Might make the line more appealing if one or two ships above T5 were made more interesting, and the top tier DDs were powerful."

 

I don't know, but isn't Hydro already appealing enough?

 

 

No. Highly situational at best. 

[anonym_ix2LQemoTpfh]

Give all my ships secret buffs that no one else has 

 

[HazardDrake]

The gun bloom in them just makes them a no go for me.

 

Even if a german DD wins a duel or the other DD smokes and runs, they arn't gonna re-stealth because of the bloom. They take so much extra damage because of that.

 

If they were like the VMF ones, where the bloom was the same as the max range, I might take a look into them.

[Mesrith]

Honestly, the gun bloom and nerfed-to-[edited] smoke are about all that would need correcting to make German DDs really good.  Chop the gun bloom down to Soviet DD levels, and restore the smoke to what it was, then, T-22 aside, you'd have decent ships.  T-22 is another story and needs an individual case study.

 

I'm fine with either/or, it doesn't even have to be both.  Give me a normal smoke duration or a normal gun bloom and the German destroyers are in better shape.  They're not terrible, but they're also not special at anything except for AP damage and hydro.  The gun bloom usually eliminates the ability to 1v1 an enemy destroyer that's sitting in smoke with your hydro, because you're almost certainly going to be spotted by some other enemy ship once you fire.  I understand that not every tech tree can be the best tech tree, but there's nothing about these destroyers' capabilities that require them to have both uncharacteristic gun bloom and uncharacteristic smoke duration.

 

It took me awhile to get the hang of the Z-46 but I ended up enjoying it.  The AP rounds are not to be taken lightly, but just like any AP-centric ship, it takes a certain level of play to know when/where to fire AP.  If you can't manage the AP usage, the Z-46 is just a watered-down Fletcher with hydro.

 

I just got the Z-52 yesterday and plan on putting some games in soon, but on paper it's not much of a step up from the Z-46.  You gain minimal torpedo buffs, move one turret to the front, and have a wider hydro range, in exchange for half a kilometer of concealment.

[TenguBlade]

"Might make the line more appealing if one or two ships above T5 were made more interesting, and the top tier DDs were powerful."

 

I don't know, but isn't Hydro already appealing enough?

The hydro forces you to get into ranges where everyone will just focus you down, and sucks for you especially if someone's using AP.  German DDs have decent cap-contesting ability in 1v1s or similar small-scale battles involving DDs only because the hydro gives them a vision advantage, but the minute a heavier support ship enters the scene, the odds are exponentially stacked against you because of your inferior smoke, tendency to suffer AP normal-pens unless perfectly broadside, weak-for-caliber HE, and insane gun detection bloom.

[shoy07]

Tengublade- perfect synopsis...the hydro forces continual bad situations if you want to use correctly for using hydro effectively when capping. Which hydro to me is helping time spot torps sooner and obviously enemy ships in smoke. 

[Captain_Dorja]

 

It's explained very clearly right beneath the data. "The top ten damage players for each ship. "

 

yeah I saw that, but still felt it was worth saying. 

[1nc0mp3t3nt_1]

Personally, the German Destroyers convinced me to play destroyers again. I will not argue against buffing them, but I also don't think much could be done without making them broken. I would like for my to not have to get 6-7 torp hits in a full salvo to down a Scharn/Gneis, and yes if the gun bloom was decreased, I would abuse it