Shiratsyu in ranked , what am I doing wrong?

[anonym_xgAO60ZDNRAq]

I have been playing the shiratsyu  in random and i do really well in it,  67%winrate, above average damage , k/d etc.

But in ranked I suck, just over 45% winrate, my damage is slightly below average but all other stats are around average. So what am I doing wrong? I do the usual cap, smoke, spot and try do as much damage as I can but I just can't figure out what I am doing wrong.

I know the maps are smaller and more compact and the shiri isn't the most manouverable but I think my positioning is somehow wrong.

Any tips from sucessful Shirai captains in ranked please

[Captain_Dorja]

Biggest thing I would say is this.

 

If the enemy team has a Belfast, you are The Belfast Killer. What you have to do is look at the map and think to yourself, "Where is that Belfast going to go?" He's going to look for hard cover like an island that is close enough to at least 1 of the caps for him to cover that cap with radar. Once you decide where you think Belfast is likely to go, try and get in a position where you'll be on the flank of that Belfast. He'll be detected sooner or later, and you can confirm if your expectations were accurate. Once his location is known, wait for him to drop smoke. Remember, British smoke screens are usually very compact, and a Belfast in ranked is going to be expecting their hard cover to keep them safe from enemy fire if they stop in smoke. Move so that you're like 9km away from the smoke cloud and fire torpedoes into it on narrow spread. Then use reload booster and drop 8 more narrow spread torps into the smoke so that it's almost literally not possible to stay in that smoke cloud and also be alive. If you do this right, you'll either outright kill the enemy Belfast, or you'll get him to exit his smoke cloud. Hopefully while reeling from your torp attack, the enemy Belfast will be killed my your team mates. Since Shiratsuyu torps have 10km range and high speed, and since sitting in smoke means ships can't spot torpedoes until the last second, this means you should get heavy damage on the enemy's most valuable asset without taking any damage back. If you can get that Belfast killed early, or on low HP early, it's a huge bonus for your team and is probably the single most useful thing a Shiratsuyu can reliably do in ranked.

 

 

[pmgaudio]

[steelrain97]

Do not smoke yourself on a cap in the opening part of a game...Ever. If you can take the cap for free, then take it, but a DD sitting in his own smoke on a cap in the opening part of a game absolutely f*#k's the rest of the team.

[Merrillz]

Alright.  Here is what you do if you want to win ranked 5 to 2 as a Shirastuyu.   You just have to exist.  Its really that simple.  

 

You don't need to cap yourself, or even really need to do damage.  Get as close as you can to the enemy fleet without being detected.   Just keep them spotted and don't die.  That's it.  

 

Your torps are nice for killing ships camping in smoke, but don't expect it to work.  You can gun down low hp DDs and reset contested caps.  Just be aware of your limitations.  If you feel comfortable with your dodging skills, you can bait radars.  All of which help you win but have no where near the impact as just spotting for your team. 

[anonym_xgAO60ZDNRAq]

Alright.  Here is what you do if you want to win ranked 5 to 2 as a Shirastuyu.   You just have to exist.  Its really that simple.  

 

You don't need to cap yourself, or even really need to do damage.  Get as close as you can to the enemy fleet without being detected.   Just keep them spotted and don't die.  That's it.  

 

Your torps are nice for killing ships camping in smoke, but don't expect it to work.  You can gun down low hp DDs and reset contested caps.  Just be aware of your limitations.  If you feel comfortable with your dodging skills, you can bait radars.  All of which help you win but have no where near the impact as just spotting for your team. 

 

I think this is my problem, I need to be more patient, I get a little anxious if I'm not doing  damage.

Its hard to be passive especially when you go behind in a game. Its good to see Flamu doesn't always get the win either

[Captain_Dorja]

Keep in mind that your damage in ranked really shouldn't be as high as it is in a random battle in any ship just purely form the fact that there are only 7 enemies. If I were in a BB and pulling down like 70,000 damage I'd say that was probably enough to be my fair share in ranked. In a random battle, I want to be over 100,000 in t7 before I feel like I can start to call it high damage. I had to do over 130,000 in a Gneisenau one match. I basically killed the entirety of both enemy BBs and 2 cruisers by myself.

 

DD damage numbers should be low most of the time, and in ranked, they are going to be even lower. I've hard ranked matches in Shiratsuyu where I only did like 15,000 or so but had a huge impact on the match by forcing a Belfast into the open with a torpedo hit, and then scoring just light damage to enemy DDs and forcing them to break from caps or face the massed fire of the whole team behind me.

[Merrillz]

 

I think this is my problem, I need to be more patient, I get a little anxious if I'm not doing  damage.

Its hard to be passive especially when you go behind in a game. Its good to see Flamu doesn't always get the win either

 

Flamu does almost the exact opposite of what you should do in a Shira at the start of that game.  You send everyone to one cap and the Shira then goes to the other and delays and spots.  You need to limit the enemy dds movements and spot for your team.   Just being there keeps them from flanking.  (which is why he lost that game)  You need to use your spotting range as a weapon that restricts the enemy's movements.  

 

The only map that is different is Warrior's Path epicenter.  The first Shira into the middle normally wins the game.  Because you can use your detection to keep the center cap all game. 

[Captain_Dorja]

Honestly I think Flamu is kind of over rated. He's wicked arrogant and super flamboyant. I feel like he's not probably that good of a person to learn from because he seems too egotistical to me and doesn't talk about errors he makes and how he could do better like hardly ever. Insert Notser plug here. He's the man basically.

 

#GoTeamNotser!

[steelrain97]

 

Flamu does almost the exact opposite of what you should do in a Shira at the start of that game.  You send everyone to one cap and the Shira then goes to the other and delays and spots.  You need to limit the enemy dds movements and spot for your team.   Just being there keeps them from flanking.  (which is why he lost that game)  You need to use your spotting range as a weapon that restricts the enemy's movements.  

I will disagree with you very strongly on this. That tactic can work, however, it requires a very specific set of conditions. First you have to have at least 3 DD's per side. Second, the other DD's have to be able to pressure a cap. Things like Mahan, Blys, etc cannot effectively pressure caps, they don't have the detection for it. It takes you out of position to provide smoke for your team, and eliminates your ability to deny smoke (read torpwall) to the enemy team. The Shiratsuyu is one of the most powerful information gathering platforms at tier 7 due to its insanely low detectability. In addition, the Shiratsuyu is slow, so it's escability in a lone wolf situation is hurt by the fact that you will likely have limited support fire, and your own guns are weak if you are being hunted by another DD. Leave the offside stuff to things like Sims, Leningrad, Akisuki etc, that can defend themselves. You are most powerful when you have support fire to complement your own detectability.

[Captain_Dorja]

Shiratsuyu is slow? I guess I missed the boat on that one. Are any DDs at t7 fast other than Kiev and Leningrad?

[centarina]

I find shiratsuyu to be pretty strong DD.     the key is   the best concealment in the game.   that is what will help you the most.     it is fast enough (run the flag and premium speed)     Most of the  Shiratsuyu that I've ran into in Ranked has been too aggressive.  I've killed quite a few with my sims.     either you have to act as fleet scout or    be very cautious approaching caps.    either way,  you want to spot the enemy and control the engagement.

 

Situation awareness is the key for success using DD in ranked.      Only reason I preferred sims is that I just have lot more match in it.  I do find shiratsuyu to be totally OP, so I don't run it often.    it has pretty effective gun when it is setup right.     I killed ognevoi, blyskawica and akatsuki today in one match.       I just outgunned akastuki (even though I only had about 1/2 hp and he had full hp )       tbf,  I have 19 pointer on it, which helps. 

 

 

very few DDs can run past 40+ knot that russian bias can

 

[Landing_Skipper]

Belfast = priority target #1

 

Patience is key, especially using the torp reload booster. Ideally you want 2 or more enemy ships bunched together before you dump that wall o' torps. Don't be afraid to stack the torp spreads. IOW 2 sets just about but not quite on top of each other with a slight delay. Your target thinks "Whew he missed me" then BAM!

 

+10 on using your stealth to spot for the team. 

 

+100 on staying alive 

 

-1 on flanking as a primary tactic. If there you have only 1 or 2 DDs, always stick together and secure the primary objective. If you have 3 or 4, then sending one to the uncontested (hopefully) cap can work. Shiratsuyu is great for this because she can dump 16 torps into the enemy cap if the teams have different objectives. New Dawn is good for this.  It can work on other maps too.  However, I much prefer taking the primary cap and only considering a flanking move later if positioning calls for it. And RL can ruin a flanker's day PDQ. 

[steelrain97]

Shiratsuyu is slow? I guess I missed the boat on that one. Are any DDs at t7 fast other than Kiev and Leningrad?

 

34 top speed is slower than most cruisers, Sims and Akatsuki do 38, even Mahan does 35, so yeah, it's basically the slowest tier 7 dd in the game. Belfast is actually faster at 34.1, Schors and Myoko are both faster, and all the rest go at least 32 so yeah, 34 knts is not anything to write home about.

[anonym_xgAO60ZDNRAq]

Well 5 games today with 4 wins, so looks like your advice was good, Patience is the key!

Won the first 4 and then stopped playing after I lost a game.

My game definitely gets a more ragged if I play more than half a dozen games in a row.

Thanks guys

[Captain_Dorja]

 

34 top speed is slower than most cruisers, Sims and Akatsuki do 38, even Mahan does 35, so yeah, it's basically the slowest tier 7 dd in the game. Belfast is actually faster at 34.1, Schors and Myoko are both faster, and all the rest go at least 32 so yeah, 34 knts is not anything to write home about.

 

The only British cruiser to exceed 32.5 knots is Emerald (before upgrades) If you're going to compare unbonused ships running bonuses than RIP valid results. Most cruisers top out at 33. IJN get some exceptionally fast cruisers that go in the 35-37 range, and Soviets do too, but they pay for it with 900m turning circles. I guess I don't consider Shiratsuyu slow because with speed flag and engine boost, she goes pretty fast, and when you combine that with best stealth at tier and decent agility it means that it's a lot easier to move at will in stealth, or to disengage and drop off detection that it is in any other of the t7 DDs.

[steelrain97]

 

The only British cruiser to exceed 32.5 knots is Emerald (before upgrades) If you're going to compare unbonused ships running bonuses than RIP valid results. Most cruisers top out at 33. IJN get some exceptionally fast cruisers that go in the 35-37 range, and Soviets do too, but they pay for it with 900m turning circles. I guess I don't consider Shiratsuyu slow because with speed flag and engine boost, she goes pretty fast, and when you combine that with best stealth at tier and decent agility it means that it's a lot easier to move at will in stealth, or to disengage and drop off detection that it is in any other of the t7 DDs.

Sooo sorry I forgot I had a damn speed flag on the Belfast when I was looking in the port, please tell me which of the other values I gave that were off. And yes the Shira is clearly the slowest DD in the tier. My point is that a slow destroyer with poor self defense capability is not the best choice for an off-side play ship. There are other and better choices. Shiras strengths are detection, which is amplified when there is people shooting at what you spot, and torpedos. In a game that is often dictated by smoke, having the best torpedo ship in the tier to either hit people sitting in smoke or force them to move is a huge asset. Her strengths and weaknesses make her more suitable for playing in front of and around the team rather than lone wolfing trying to torpedo snipe. So, IMO, using the Shira as an offside lone-wolf is a misuse of the strengths and weaknesses of the ship. As the battle develops then obviously that can change, and you should take advantage of opportunities as they present themselves.

[hanesco]

The shiratsuyu is a ship used for area-denial, basically punishing ships getting into smoke without you being spotted or dealt with before. I managed to get to rank 10, contesting caps and getting the most out of my concealment. If the US DDs just knife-fight, then the IJN DDs use their concealment to light up other destroyers and let the team kill them.

[Captain_Dorja]

Sooo sorry I forgot I had a damn speed flag on the Belfast when I was looking in the port, please tell me which of the other values I gave that were off. And yes the Shira is clearly the slowest DD in the tier. My point is that a slow destroyer with poor self defense capability is not the best choice for an off-side play ship. There are other and better choices. Shiras strengths are detection, which is amplified when there is people shooting at what you spot, and torpedos. In a game that is often dictated by smoke, having the best torpedo ship in the tier to either hit people sitting in smoke or force them to move is a huge asset. Her strengths and weaknesses make her more suitable for playing in front of and around the team rather than lone wolfing trying to torpedo snipe. So, IMO, using the Shira as an offside lone-wolf is a misuse of the strengths and weaknesses of the ship. As the battle develops then obviously that can change, and you should take advantage of opportunities as they present themselves.

 

I guess I'll have to agree to disagree with you on that. I am not trying to get into the really low ranks, so maybe what I've been doing would stop being effective if I was down near rank 5 or under. I find that her "poor self defense capability" is actually pretty good because 1) her stealth is the best self defense capability a DD can have. No one can shoot a target they can't see. It's very easy to drop detection and just disengage. I felt utterly free to pick gun fights with any DD in any match because I could always use stealth to control the fight. 2) IJN DD guns are under rated by most people. As long as you have them pre-aimed to where you're going to engage, they are actually pretty potent. The difference is in employment. You don't go for a protracted gunfight to kill enemy DDs in a single round of blazing gunfire. When you get detected you begin to disengage and retreat towards friendlies, forcing the enemy DD to over extend. Fire somewhere around 3 salvos at the enemy. With good accuracy, this should deal around 6,000 damage. With a bit less accuracy, it should still yield 4,500 damage or so. It's often enough to force the enemy to disengage because they're losing too much HP too rapidly. It's a lot harder for a Mahan to disengage than Shiratsuyu because of her bad detection. 3) If the proverbial shlt is really hitting the fan, you can drop some torps to distract the enemy, pop smoke, and retreat behind the smoke for a certain break away. I only played 13 games in Shiratsuyu, but in those games I was only killed 5 times, and 3 of them were in the first few days of ranked before I had worked out my strat for using the ship. The other 2 times I was killed were because I was stupid. I got caught out by a really lucky wide spread torpedo that hit me in a smoke screen in literally my last ranked battle, and the other death was when I chased a low HP Belfast with my guns in order to prevent him from escaping. That was a really close match and we needed our other 2 DDs to not be dead really badly, and I was the only person who was in position to finish off the Belfast so I traded a mostly dead me for a Belfast and it let our DDs control the battle and win. I found the ship to be able to act nearly with impunity, as long as I used my head.

 

The other thing that I think is worth noting is that Shiratsuyu's torpedoes are a lot more effective from the lone flanker position than they are from the position screening the team ahead for two reasons. The main reason is that from the lone flank position, you get to fire torps at people from the side instead of from the bow. Also, it's easier to stay undetected so targets are less likely to expect torps from a specific location at specific times. Lastly, if you do get detected, it usually becomes a 1v1 with an enemy DD. I found that mostly those scenarios weren't that terrible for me because I knew I could always bloody their nose and then withdraw. The enemy DD had to constantly do nothing but pursue me until one of us died, or else I would just move back in and resume torpedo attacks on everything that existed. I could keep targets spotted, put out more effective torpedo attacks, and draw off enemy support into tasks they could not complete successfully from a lone flank position. 

 

At the end of the day, the most important things in ranked are that people play ships they are strong in, and that they play them in a way that is effective for them. I was effective in Shiratsuyu as a Belfast killer, as the guy who went and solo capped the point everyone ignored (or at least made it difficult for the enemy to do the same) and put down deadly harassment from the side for the rest of the match. If you aren't effective in that role, but you are effective as a forward screen, smoke generator for battleships, and harasser from the front, you should play to your strength. I have the Belfast, and it's very powerful in ranked, but when I wanted to run a radar support cruiser, I didn't reach for Belfast. I went for Indianapolis. I'm just not that comfortable in Belfast, but I'm a pretty fair stick in a USN CA and it worked well for me. Stick to what you know and do what you know you can do well. That's the most important thing.

[anonymised]

People praising the detection advantage of the shiratsuyu- from rank 10 down I have seen maybe 25 shiratsuyu and one of them has had less detection than my Sims. 

 

People either have junior captains or are taking other priorities? 

 

 

[steelrain97]

 

I guess I'll have to agree to disagree with you on that. I am not trying to get into the really low ranks, so maybe what I've been doing would stop being effective if I was down near rank 5 or under. I find that her "poor self defense capability" is actually pretty good because 1) her stealth is the best self defense capability a DD can have. No one can shoot a target they can't see. It's very easy to drop detection and just disengage. I felt utterly free to pick gun fights with any DD in any match because I could always use stealth to control the fight. 2) IJN DD guns are under rated by most people. As long as you have them pre-aimed to where you're going to engage, they are actually pretty potent. The difference is in employment. You don't go for a protracted gunfight to kill enemy DDs in a single round of blazing gunfire. When you get detected you begin to disengage and retreat towards friendlies, forcing the enemy DD to over extend. Fire somewhere around 3 salvos at the enemy. With good accuracy, this should deal around 6,000 damage. With a bit less accuracy, it should still yield 4,500 damage or so. It's often enough to force the enemy to disengage because they're losing too much HP too rapidly. It's a lot harder for a Mahan to disengage than Shiratsuyu because of her bad detection. 3) If the proverbial shlt is really hitting the fan, you can drop some torps to distract the enemy, pop smoke, and retreat behind the smoke for a certain break away. I only played 13 games in Shiratsuyu, but in those games I was only killed 5 times, and 3 of them were in the first few days of ranked before I had worked out my strat for using the ship. The other 2 times I was killed were because I was stupid. I got caught out by a really lucky wide spread torpedo that hit me in a smoke screen in literally my last ranked battle, and the other death was when I chased a low HP Belfast with my guns in order to prevent him from escaping. That was a really close match and we needed our other 2 DDs to not be dead really badly, and I was the only person who was in position to finish off the Belfast so I traded a mostly dead me for a Belfast and it let our DDs control the battle and win. I found the ship to be able to act nearly with impunity, as long as I used my head.

 

The other thing that I think is worth noting is that Shiratsuyu's torpedoes are a lot more effective from the lone flanker position than they are from the position screening the team ahead for two reasons. The main reason is that from the lone flank position, you get to fire torps at people from the side instead of from the bow. Also, it's easier to stay undetected so targets are less likely to expect torps from a specific location at specific times. Lastly, if you do get detected, it usually becomes a 1v1 with an enemy DD. I found that mostly those scenarios weren't that terrible for me because I knew I could always bloody their nose and then withdraw. The enemy DD had to constantly do nothing but pursue me until one of us died, or else I would just move back in and resume torpedo attacks on everything that existed. I could keep targets spotted, put out more effective torpedo attacks, and draw off enemy support into tasks they could not complete successfully from a lone flank position. 

 

At the end of the day, the most important things in ranked are that people play ships they are strong in, and that they play them in a way that is effective for them. I was effective in Shiratsuyu as a Belfast killer, as the guy who went and solo capped the point everyone ignored (or at least made it difficult for the enemy to do the same) and put down deadly harassment from the side for the rest of the match. If you aren't effective in that role, but you are effective as a forward screen, smoke generator for battleships, and harasser from the front, you should play to your strength. I have the Belfast, and it's very powerful in ranked, but when I wanted to run a radar support cruiser, I didn't reach for Belfast. I went for Indianapolis. I'm just not that comfortable in Belfast, but I'm a pretty fair stick in a USN CA and it worked well for me. Stick to what you know and do what you know you can do well. That's the most important thing.

I have seen those tactics employed effectively, however, more often than not, those kind of tactics turn into a ship out of position to have any real impact on the game from what I have seen to date. It's one thing to get on flanks and torp/spot, but usually the DD that gets disconnected from the rest of the team is stuck just spamming Torps once every minute or so and is not doing a whole lot to fight the vision game or support team mates. I personally hate seeing IJN dd's on my team, because more often than not, the players running them have this torp snipe mentality, and don't understand that vision and area control are the most important roles of a DD in ranked games.

[Merrillz]

I have seen those tactics employed effectively, however, more often than not, those kind of tactics turn into a ship out of position to have any real impact on the game from what I have seen to date. It's one thing to get on flanks and torp/spot, but usually the DD that gets disconnected from the rest of the team is stuck just spamming Torps once every minute or so and is not doing a whole lot to fight the vision game or support team mates. I personally hate seeing IJN dd's on my team, because more often than not, the players running them have this torp snipe mentality, and don't understand that vision and area control are the most important roles of a DD in ranked games.

 

This^ is the main reason I did so well in ranked this season.  I was playing for map control while other Shiras were going for torps.  And since the matchmaker tries to somewhat balance DDs more often than not.  The enemy teams would get the passive torp type of Shiras, pretty much making it 7 vs 6.  

[Captain_Dorja]

I have seen those tactics employed effectively, however, more often than not, those kind of tactics turn into a ship out of position to have any real impact on the game from what I have seen to date. It's one thing to get on flanks and torp/spot, but usually the DD that gets disconnected from the rest of the team is stuck just spamming Torps once every minute or so and is not doing a whole lot to fight the vision game or support team mates. I personally hate seeing IJN dd's on my team, because more often than not, the players running them have this torp snipe mentality, and don't understand that vision and area control are the most important roles of a DD in ranked games.

 

Ok I get what you're saying. The reason why we're having a disagreement is because you're basically saying you don't like it when people do something which can be good, but they go about it in the wrong way. I'm trying to explain how to do it the right way, and why that way is right, and what about it makes it effective. If someone does something smart, but they do it in an incorrect manner, it's bad no matter what. Belfast is a really strong ship, but if they smoke improperly or have bad commander skills they aren't a super strong ship with few counters. They are a silly person in a Belfast doing it wrong.

 

I do admit, many people who play IJN DDs do it wrong IMO. I play every line in the game, and it influences play styles in other ships. I also am basically an amateur military historian. Basically all that means is I keep in mind and try to apply some of the really basic principles of warfare in games like this. Like I'm always attacking pretty much regardless of what is happening because if I'm attacking, the initiative is easier to keep, and giving up the initiative is often the first step to being defeated. I also always try to control as much map area as possible because it allows teams to encircle enemies, and being encircled in this game is devastating. Stuff like that.

[Capt_Q_Sparrow]

It's easy as to what's wrong .  There are only 7 ships and you are getting noticed .  You can't get away with somebody being occupied and sneaking a shot in . 

[steelrain97]

 

Ok I get what you're saying. The reason why we're having a disagreement is because you're basically saying you don't like it when people do something which can be good, but they go about it in the wrong way. I'm trying to explain how to do it the right way, and why that way is right, and what about it makes it effective. If someone does something smart, but they do it in an incorrect manner, it's bad no matter what. Belfast is a really strong ship, but if they smoke improperly or have bad commander skills they aren't a super strong ship with few counters. They are a silly person in a Belfast doing it wrong.

 

I do admit, many people who play IJN DDs do it wrong IMO. I play every line in the game, and it influences play styles in other ships. I also am basically an amateur military historian. Basically all that means is I keep in mind and try to apply some of the really basic principles of warfare in games like this. Like I'm always attacking pretty much regardless of what is happening because if I'm attacking, the initiative is easier to keep, and giving up the initiative is often the first step to being defeated. I also always try to control as much map area as possible because it allows teams to encircle enemies, and being encircled in this game is devastating. Stuff like that.

I can buy that for a dollar. Nearly all strategies and tactics have a time and place, so I will pretty much never say that a particular tactic is always wrong. I'm not saying that what you are talking about is always the wrong move. Belfast radar also can make life really difficult for DD's, so I get that they need to get a little creative at times. All I'm saying is that all of the same traits that make the Shiratsuyu good at doing what you are talking about, are reinforced and amplified when they have team support. That same stealth also mean that shira's can also counter spot DD's better than any other ship. 

 

Also, it's nice to have a disagreement and discussion on the forums without having to resort to calling each other idiots every other word. Having said that...I still think you are wrong, kappa.