Worried about Roma

[dseehafer]

Greetings all,

 

 

So, now that the excitement about hearing that we will be getting Roma as a premium ship has worn down we must begin to look at her more realistically. I'm a bit worried about how competitive Roma will be at tier 8. Long story short, if WG introduces Roma as she appeared historically she's likely to be a turd.

 

HISTORICAL STATS

 

Weight - 45,485t

 

This is lighter than all other tier 8 battleships currently in game save for Alabama (44,519t). Even the North Carolina, which is smaller dimensionally than Roma, weighs more at 46,700t. This means that Roma will be at the lower end of the hitpoint scale for tier 8 battleships. This does not break the ship, she is still well within the tier 8 weight class and is by no means drastically under-weight... but we're not starting off with a high note, which should be a bad omen for stats to come...

 

Main Battery Firepower - 3x3 (9) 381/50 Ansaldo 1934. 15"

 

Let's start with the good news... these gun fire their shells at extremely high velocities (850-890mps) which means low arcs and relative ease of aim. The turrets also turn very quickly at 6 degpersec. They also have insane vertical armor penetration qualities which should make gutting enemy battleships a breeze. The bad news is... they have insane vertical armor penetration qualities which means over-pen after over-pen against anything that's not a battleship. Now for the worse news... the guns had a rof of just 1.3rpm or one shell every 45 seconds. Some have suggested that this rof was only to preserve the gun barrels and that a normal rof of 2rpm could be achieved. But, looking at the clumsy and complicated loading system these battleships had, I doubt a rof of 2rpm was possible. Furthermore, I havent been able to find any credible source that says they could achieve 2rpm. The excuse that they only loaded so slow to preserve the barrel life is a rather dumb one. When you're fighting the enemy you are not worried about preserving the life of your barrels, you are worried about preserving the life of your ship and your crew. Having said as much, I dont think WG is going to give the Roma the worst rof in game... but I dont think they're going to give them 2rpm either. We'll have to wait and see.

 

Secondary Battery Firepower - 4x3 (12) 152/55 OTO 1936. 6"

 

Roma has a whopping 6 secondary guns per side... which is terrible. This is fewer secondary guns than any other tier 8 battleship currently in game or speculated to be coming in game. Even the KGV class beats Roma by 2 extra guns per broadside. They are also lager than 150mm and therefore will most likely shoot AP, which means no chance of starting any fires. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think Roma would be the only battleship in game that does not have at least some HE secondary guns. You're brawling ability will go way down if you dont have the ability to eek out some extra fire damage on the enemy. The 90mm guns are technically big enough to be counted as secondary guns but historically they were only given AAA shells. So far, WG has not made uni-purpose guns into dual-purpose guns just because they are big enough (See Wyoming and New Yorck) and I dont expect them to start with Roma.

 

AA Firepower - 12x1 (12) 90/50 OTO 1939, 8x2 (16) 37/54 Breda 1938, 4x1 (4) 37/54 Breda 1939, 14x2 (28) 20/65 Breda 1935

 

We'll compare Roma's AA battery to Tirpitz's, a T8 battleship who is not particularly well known for having good AA firepower. Roma has 2 fewer long range AA barrels than Tirpitz, 4 more medium range barrels than Tirpitz and 16 fewer short range barrels than Tirpitz. Roma's long range guns are 15mm smaller than Tirpitz's long range guns and her medium and short range guns are the same size as Tirpitz's. On top of Roma having more medium range barrels than Tirpitz her's are also automatic unlike Tirpitz's hand-loaded 37mm guns. Roma's medium range AA is much better than Tirpitz's but her long and short range AA is worse (unless the Italian 90s and 20s get some godly dps numbers) so overall her AA battery is not much better than Tirpitz's... if at all.

 

 

The armor is as good as it can be. No big problems there. The top speed of 30kn is also fine at tier 8, though it's still slower than both Tirpitz and Bismarck. She's longer than NC and Alabama but shorter than the Bismarck sisters and Amagi, expect her turning circle to be worse than NC and Alabama and better than the Bismarck sisters and Amagi.

 

Best case scenario - Roma gets rof of 2rpm (unhistorical) and the 90mm guns are dual purpose (also unhistorical).

 

For me, Roma could be the worst POS in game and I'd still buy her for her looks and thee fact that she's the fist Italian ship in game. I doubt WG will release an unbalanced ship at tier 8, but the Roma we get may be a far cry from the actual Roma... which is sad when most premium ships are represented as accurately as possible. Who knows, maybe Roma will get a special perk. WG did say we would be getting some new weapon types this year... and Roma was one of the few battleships ever to carry depth charges.... hmmmm 

 

 No I'm not saying we're getting submarines. Calm down. Just that it might be fun to drop some depth charges in the patch of an enemy ship. It was a joke really, not to be taken seriously either way.

But she did actually have depth charge racks, four of 'em to be exact. 

 

[CapnCappy]

Roma could be the worst POS in game and I'd still buy her for her looks

 

You're the reason we can't have nice things.

 

[Battlecruiser_Siegfried]

There's no way they are getting their historical reload times.

[mofton]

I'm not too worried myself, though I see where you're coming from. 

 

• The main battery is crucial, but is superb in everything but ROF on paper. I think that about 2 rpm, or maybe 1.8 or so is entirely possible. There are plenty of 'designed' ROF's in game which are pretty spurious. I think just from a 'fun' perspective we'll never see longer than 35 sec mb reload
• Good secondaries are a plus, bad secondaries aren't necessarily a huge negative. Especially on a ship which probably wants to remain at range where possible. Good secs synergize well on Bis because you want to be up close due to turtleback, fast gun traverse, and poor dispersion. If Roma wants to use high MV to stay at range then 'meh' to secondaries
• Warspite's 152mm secondaries fire HE so Roma's can too if needed
• Roma's in a blank-slate position on AA DPS if needed, and some premiums can get more AA than they really should (i.e. Arizona has more than here 'snapshot' should)

 

Overall, I struggle to think of ships which have good guns as Roma does and are objectively bad. I also struggle to think of ships which are on the upper end of speed for their class/tier and are objectively bad. Roma has some pretty fundamental strengths in the crazy way WG implements ships into this game. 

 

I would personally be more concerned on her dispersion and sigma which are complete unknowns and can cripple any ship. 

[Sir_Orrin]

I'm very lucky, I have both of my favorite ships in game, Bismarck and Graf Spee, and they both very fun. I hope you get your Roma soon and that it is everything you want. 

 

[scruffycavetroll]

I'm not, will be immune to fires except those set by Nero

 

or it'll be a tomato

 

[1nv4d3rZ1m]

Historic ROF seems like less and less of an issue, especially with the ROF buff that the high tier USN CAs just got. Balance trumps many historic figures in this game including ROF, shell damage, turret traverse and others for many ships. 

[Rolkatsuki]

Well if op has described what Roma will be historically be like in the game, at least the other tier 8s won't be power creeped.

[Carl]

 But, looking at the clumsy and complicated loading system these battleships had, I doubt a rof of 2rpm was possible.

 

You mean the nearly identical to british practise loading system that on some UK, (and IJN designs which copied it AFAIK), did achieve 2rpm. The video slows everything down to make it easier to follow but a video of the british system in action shows they can ram all 3 loads (also typical of most BB guns ever built), in quite rapid succession.

 

As an aside. The 90mm will certainly be treated as secondaries. by your reasoning most of the DP guns in the game would be either AAA only or surface only as a lot of them used the same HE shells for both AA and Surface engagements. Not all ofc, some did have seperate AA and HE rounds, but many didn't.

[VTAdmiral]

The OTO 152mm were classed as rapid-fire guns, so they may shoot faster than other large-caliber secondaries.

 

Additionally they may be tweaked to fire HE for balance reasons, or they may be programmed to aim 'high' and farm damage through superstructure penetrations. Though I imagine their AP capability will be similar to Yamato's 15.5cm secondaries which can and often do cit-pen cruisers. We'll have to see.

[Hunter_Steel]

Slowing your RoF to allow barrels to cool  by firing only one barrel at a time, is a good idea, considering you don't want the barrels to warp in the middle of combat.

 

It's a technique used by most navies, considering the way we fire our guns ingame, would mean we'd overheat our guns after the first 5 salvos. Also, firing all three guns, all four and both guns in our turrets should seriously screw our accuracy, because of the shock waves from the muzzle flares interfered with each other, causing the shells to go off-target ever so slightly, but at range it's a fatal blow to your accuracy.

 

~Hunter

[VTAdmiral]

Slowing your RoF to allow barrels to cool  by firing only one barrel at a time, is a good idea, considering you don't want the barrels to warp in the middle of combat.

 

It's a technique used by most navies, considering the way we fire our guns ingame, would mean we'd overheat our guns after the first 5 salvos. Also, firing all three guns, all four and both guns in our turrets should seriously screw our accuracy, because of the shock waves from the muzzle flares interfered with each other, causing the shells to go off-target ever so slightly, but at range it's a fatal blow to your accuracy.

 

~Hunter

 

Many ships had ways to deal with blast shock throwing off aim. The British cruisers set the center gun back from the side guns which looks pretty derpy. US and later Japanese designs (and the British 3-gun battleships) used a delay coil which delayed firing of all guns by just long enough for the shockwave to dissipate.

 

Though the British and Japanese still used the "fire one at a time" doctrine because it also allows you to adjust aim and improve accuracy. And on some Japanese battleships, that's the only way they could fire due to poorly engineered recoil systems in the turrets-- the Fusos couldn't fire both guns in a turret at the same time because it would rupture the hydraulics and render the turret inoperable.

[Carl]

 It's a technique used by most navies, considering the way we fire our guns ingame, would mean we'd overheat our guns after the first 5 salvos. Also, firing all three guns, all four and both guns in our turrets should seriously screw our accuracy, because of the shock waves from the muzzle flares interfered with each other, causing the shells to go off-target ever so slightly, but at range it's a fatal blow to your accuracy.

 

Most ships IRL had delay coils which induced a fraction of a second delay which completely fixed the issue. The Nelsons are one of the notable exceptions to that  ironically. I'm also pretty sure your wrong about the overheating, one of the new mexico class is known to have done a sustained trials shoot where she expended her entire ammo load at nearly 2rpm average.

 

[IJN_Cruiser_Jintsuu]

Since when did WG ever give anything historical reload times? reload is a huge balance factor and her reload will be buffed to make her competitive. 

[renegadestatuz]

What's weird is that Roma was confirmed in WG magazine(the Russian version), yet when that issue was translated and then released in English, there's no mention of Roma in the American version of the magazine. Which is the same exact magazine except translated into English.

[Palladia]

AP secondaries isn't necessarily a bad thing.  Accuracy,  range,  and penetration will all matter more.  They'll lose a bit against BB's most likely but be more effective against cruisers and overpen pending possibly destroyers.

[IronWolfV]

I'm willing to bet WG will make a few changes for the sake of balance.

[dseehafer]

 

You mean the nearly identical to british practise loading system that on some UK, (and IJN designs which copied it AFAIK), did achieve 2rpm. The video slows everything down to make it easier to follow but a video of the british system in action shows they can ram all 3 loads (also typical of most BB guns ever built), in quite rapid succession.

 

As an aside. The 90mm will certainly be treated as secondaries. by your reasoning most of the DP guns in the game would be either AAA only or surface only as a lot of them used the same HE shells for both AA and Surface engagements. Not all ofc, some did have seperate AA and HE rounds, but many didn't.

 

but Roma's 90's didn't even have HE shells. Only special AAA shells.

[Demon93IT]

Personally I think she'll be quite a capable long range BB for these logical reasons:
1)Primary armament: muzzle velocity coupled with good turret rotation makes her fairy lethal both from long range and close range. Moreover you could fire all 9 guns while sailing almost strait towards the target(since the X turret has +/- 160° angles). On the RoF 1.3 rpm was achieved in combat which is comparable to what the competition was able to get in the same conditions(at least those guns didn't explode or break down, coff Richelieu and KGV coff)

2)Maneuverability: she has three rudders and her length/beam ratio is good granting her the ability to have a tighter turns radius than some of the competition. It's hard to quantify the advantage in terms of turn radius compared to other tier 8s but it should be present

3)Protection: while her armor scheme is perhaps overly complicated she has her vertical protection angled at 11° which, especially from long range, will surely have an impact(can't say for sure about the whole scheme would work since it was never truly put to the test historically). Her horizontal protection is also a bit complicated but should be adequate enough with all layers considered(not that many shells hit there but I digress)

4)Secondary armament: even with the 90 mm on the secondary armament is meh at best so it's pointless to force her to play a là Bismarck(ie a brawler)

 

All in all I think she can do well if you leverage her strong points. Besides that was how RN Littorio and RN Vittorio Veneto were actually used in combat(in most of the engagements anyway)

 

 

 

[Morpheous]

This class will stand up quite well, in a comparision to the Bismark.  The armor protection was novel and theorized to be very bouncy.  The underwater protection is better than Bismark, especially if WG give more credit to the unique system the Littorio class had.  The Weight of the broadside is greater than the Bismark, more damage per hit, better pen, so more citadels. (one extra gun), probably less range due to worse optics.  You could also have the premium with the 16' guns that were on the board at one time for installation!   So what we have here is a moderate range BB Killer, should beat a Bismark in a duel at range, but lose in close.  Should be the fastest BB at T8 at 31 knots.  You could easily give the Littorio class secondaries the same range as the Bismark secondaries, as they did shoot farther historically.  11k with fewer guns, that would be fun.    AA should be better than Bismark, had 90mm quickfire AA guns that could have very good range in game.   Damage control seemed to be above average (systems).  All in all, I see a ship that has less HPs than a Bismark, but little more bouncy and better underwater protection, hitting harder at range, but not as hard in shorter ranges.  Very viable.

[Kilpanic]

Best case scenario is that we get a boat that's difficult to play well but rewarding in the right hands. I've got my fingers crossed! 

[dseehafer]

Personally I think she'll be quite a capable long range BB for these logical reasons:

1)Primary armament: muzzle velocity coupled with good turret rotation makes her fairy lethal both from long range and close range. Moreover you could fire all 9 guns while sailing almost strait towards the target(since the X turret has +/- 160° angles). On the RoF 1.3 rpm was achieved in combat which is comparable to what the competition was able to get in the same conditions(at least those guns didn't explode or break down, coff Richelieu and KGV coff)

2)Maneuverability: she has three rudders and her length/beam ratio is good granting her the ability to have a tighter turns radius than some of the competition. It's hard to quantify the advantage in terms of turn radius compared to other tier 8s but it should be present

3)Protection: while her armor scheme is perhaps overly complicated she has her vertical protection angled at 11° which, especially from long range, will surely have an impact(can't say for sure about the whole scheme would work since it was never truly put to the test historically). Her horizontal protection is also a bit complicated but should be adequate enough with all layers considered(not that many shells hit there but I digress)

4)Secondary armament: even with the 90 mm on the secondary armament is meh at best so it's pointless to force her to play a là Bismarck(ie a brawler)

 

All in all I think she can do well if you leverage her strong points. Besides that was how RN Littorio and RN Vittorio Veneto were actually used in combat(in most of the engagements anyway)

 

 

 

 

triple rudders mean nothing. The tier 9 and 10 Russian cruisers have triple rudders and they still turn like beached whales

[hanesco]

 

but Roma's 90's didn't even have HE shells. Only special AAA shells.

 

As did the Akizuki's main guns and (fictional) Ibuki and Zao secondaries. They would not mind giving the 90 mm HE shells, taking into account the sec broadside of Roma is certainly lacking (6 152 mm, 6 90 mm). The damage will be lackluster, but the rate of fire was awesome (some 15 RPM).

 

The Roma (and the Littorio too, when the italians get out in srever) will play like IJN BBs right now: A long range shooter, with laser guns and somehow lackluster RoF. It would not be a brawler, but she can be angled and locking all 9 guns on target thanks to the rear gun's angles. I think she is fast and well protected, but thanks to the complicated armor layout, she will take a shitton of damage from cruiser AP guns (even more than current BBs).

[Seraphil]

Honestly it sounds like a prime example of a textbook premium ship.

[SergeantHop]

 

but Roma's 90's didn't even have HE shells. Only special AAA shells.

 

Even though the guns weren't ever used as secondaries, are the mounts technically capable of firing on surface targets?

 

Also, how tall is the ship? Would she be a good candidate for a stealth build?