Are Torpedo Boats a thing of the past?

[_WaveRider_]

 

Hi, new to the game so I have a limited experience with my IJN DDs (Torpedo Boats), however I have looked around and come up with some points that I would like to ask the community about. This is what I have found and would very much like those that have experience in playing IJN DDs to comment. I enjoy the game but wonder whether the choices I've made are valid ones:

 

• Once there were 4 classes but due to some changes (I don't know the reason), CVs kind of disappeared.
• BBs were able to kill Cruisers (one shot), and without CV planes DDs had a stronger role as well.
• Cruiser players started to move to DDs or BBs making the game DD/BB heavy.
• With no real screen BBs were unprotected against DDs. However, gunship DDs still had to get close to deliver the killing blow; meaning only the torpedo boats really benefitted.
• In come nerfs to the torpedo boats via nerfs to torpedoes, Radar, Hydro, RPF and numerous gunboats.
• I would ask anyone to look at a game on YouTube, as I am amazed at just how much of the map has an enemy DD, ship aircraft or CV aircraft. Then add the other listed stuff like radar etc.

So my question is, with all the things that can spot DDs, is picking a weaker line (HP/Guns wise) with their main weapons being torpedoes which even BBs can dodge (and are seen by many things so remain spotted throughout their run) a wise choice?

 

After what seems like a very 'poor little Torpedo Boats' post, I would like to add I do enjoy the line. At present I don't have CE so understand that I will lose to gunboats (rightfully so) and this will change in time. But I have also seen more Cruisers and CVs returning to the game - I think this is a really good thing, but it does make concealment a lot more difficult.

 

As I get to the higher tiers I will come up against very good players who really know the ships, the maps and the type of play that will be adopted and in some cases needs to be adopted by certain ship classes. Along with other elements introduced to the game, is the IJN Torpedo Boat relevant anymore? With some BBs getting higher torpedo hit averages and other nation DDs seen as better torpedo boats in some cases I wonder if I have picked a line with a bleak future.

 

Thank you.

[Vaidency]

So my question is, with all the things that can spot DDs, is picking a weaker line (HP/Guns wise) with their main weapons being torpedoes which even BBs can dodge (and are seen by many things so remain spotted throughout their run) a wise choice?

 

 

After what seems like a very 'poor little Torpedo Boats' post, I would like to add I do enjoy the line.

 

This isn't real military logistics.  If you enjoy the line, then yes, it is "wise" to play it.

 

IJN DD's are a feast or famine experience.  Sometimes you will have games where you get blocked off by radar using cruisers, RPF using gunboats or CV squadrons and can never get a good launch position.  This can lead to frustrating games where you contribute little.

 

On the other hand, you will absolutely have some games where enemies get distracted, sail behind islands without changing speed so they can't spot approaching torpedoes as they come out the other side, sit too long in smoke screens or just otherwise blunder constantly into your torpedoes.

 

If you are a min-maxing power gamer and want to constantly have the highest possible advantage in every situation, then Japanese DD's are probably not the best choice because they can be maddeningly inconsistent.  American DD's are much more reliable, especially at higher tiers where they become competent torpedo boats while retaining their superior guns.  But this isn't a game that caters particularly to min-maxing power gamers and if you happen to like Japanese DD's more than just play them.  Or play both, since being a collector is definitely something this game caters to.

[Lensar]

 

I've been an IJN DD main for a long time, and I agree that they repeatedly get kicked in the teeth.

 

But the battles played stats don't back up the assertion that IJN DDs are severely under-powered. Or maybe they're way under-powered, but people enjoy that gameplay style so much, they keep coming back for more.

 

(Top T10 ships over the past week, ranked by battles played)

 

As long as people keep playing those ships, don't expect WG to make any changes in DD's favor.

[Citrusss]

torpedo boats are a bit situational but can deal massive damage. i really enjoy playing shima and shira

[Ajax_the_Great1]

I don't fear IJN dd's very much because their torpedoes are too easily spotted. They're really only a threat if I've been derping in a straight line for too long showing my broadsides.

[Kenjister]

IJN DDs are no longer great at killing defenseless ships solo, due to the spotting range on their torps.  While BBs will often take a torp or two if you have a good angle, gone as the days where the BB would take crippling damage at the very least.

 

However, it is a team game.  And there are still times where the enemy ship is locked into a position.  Whether it be cause of a BB duel, or a CV drop forced a hard turn, or they're trying to get away from a fire breathing smoke cloud, there are times when the enemy will be very predictable.  That's where IJN DDs shine.  If the enemy can't maneuver, then spotting range ceases to be an issue.  Here, the speed and range becomes very important, as you can predict these moments and get the torps where you need them before the window passes.

[Taichunger]

Torp boat action is still there, but you need more experience and patience to create steady damage in an IJN boat. I've fallen in love with Akatsuki recently, and many enjoy their Shiratsuyu. 

 

The torp boats were nerfed and sent out to die because WG's stats showed that match duration was related to the number of torp boats and the range of their torps. Good IJN torp players with 12-20 km torps could control large areas of the map, keeping other ships out and slowing the match as ships refused to push up until the DDs were killed. I used to play my Fubuki that way, and was quite successful. I sold it after the Great IJN Torp Nerf of 2016. Writing on wall, etc. 

Because of this ability of long range torps to control space, torps took massive range and detect nerfs, and IJN DDs were repackaged as ambush torpers. WG did this because an unsuccessful torp ambusher is quickly killed, and a successful one does massive damage/kills. Either way, match speeds up and there are more dead ships, faster. 

 

WG also screwed over the IJN torp boats and their area denial strategy in another way, not often remarked on by players: it produced new maps crowded with islands and narrow channels, like Sea of Fortune, Loop, and the widely hated Shards, and added islands to existing maps with open water, like Fire and Shatter. These constricted maps with channels that broke up bodies of ships into smaller groups and plentiful islands are more difficult to control with torps than the large stretches of open water that used to be found on many maps. WG hates open water passionately, which makes me very sad....

[Seamus_44]

The ships in the game are virtual weapons platforms. Each class of ship and each individual ship, as well as each weapon and each counter-measure used,  has its distinct advantages and limitations. These are variable in the battle, along with kill and luck. I used to regularly have games of 100,000 plus and a high-caliber in the Isokaze before it was nerfed. Now it is harder, but can be done. There were then, and are now games when I get killed without even a single gun hit in that ship.

 

The challenge and fun of the game is not just winning, but mastering the ship, weapons and skill. The changes renew the  dynamics of the game. Do I grip at RADAR, yes. But the drivers of the other ship do he same when I still put four fish into them, or when the flood of torps denies them a cap.

 

As Chief Dan George's character said in "Little Big Man" long ago, "Somedays the Magic works, and some days it doesn't." And now I'm off to see if I can make the magic work. 

[Royeaux]

Torpedo boats aren't a class in this game, the only thing that comes close are Japanese Destroyers (short for torpedo boat destroyer). 

[Carl]

Torp boat action is still there, but you need more experience and patience to create steady damage in an IJN boat. I've fallen in love with Akatsuki recently, and many enjoy their Shiratsuyu. 

 

The torp boats were nerfed and sent out to die because WG's stats showed that match duration was related to the number of torp boats and the range of their torps. Good IJN torp players with 12-20 km torps could control large areas of the map, keeping other ships out and slowing the match as ships refused to push up until the DDs were killed. I used to play my Fubuki that way, and was quite successful. I sold it after the Great IJN Torp Nerf of 2016. Writing on wall, etc. 

 

Because of this ability of long range torps to control space, torps took massive range and detect nerfs, and IJN DDs were repackaged as ambush torpers. WG did this because an unsuccessful torp ambusher is quickly killed, and a successful one does massive damage/kills. Either way, match speeds up and there are more dead ships, faster. 

 

WG also screwed over the IJN torp boats and their area denial strategy in another way, not often remarked on by players: it produced new maps crowded with islands and narrow channels, like Sea of Fortune, Loop, and the widely hated Shards, and added islands to existing maps with open water, like Fire and Shatter. These constricted maps with channels that broke up bodies of ships into smaller groups and plentiful islands are more difficult to control with torps than the large stretches of open water that used to be found on many maps. WG hates open water passionately, which makes me very sad....

 

Way to tinfoil there mate.

 

 

They were nerfed because the promoted high;ly static campy gameplay because no one wanted to push. Ambush torping is exactly what IJN DD's where allways supposed to be doing.

[Royeaux]

 

Way to tinfoil there mate.

 

 

They were nerfed because the promoted high;ly static campy gameplay because no one wanted to push. Ambush torping is exactly what IJN DD's where allways supposed to be doing.

 

Good thing too, when Battleships could get insta-deleted so easily, there was no reason to push the caps, now when it's only 1-2 torp hits per spread, it's now worth it to fight it out and take the cap, since that IJN DD has to wait a minute and a half to launch a fresh salvo.

[Crucis]

So my question is, with all the things that can spot DDs, is picking a weaker line (HP/Guns wise) with their main weapons being torpedoes which even BBs can dodge (and are seen by many things so remain spotted throughout their run) a wise choice?

 

 

After what seems like a very 'poor little Torpedo Boats' post, I would like to add I do enjoy the line.

 

This isn't real military logistics.  If you enjoy the line, then yes, it is "wise" to play it.

 

IJN DD's are a feast or famine experience.  Sometimes you will have games where you get blocked off by radar using cruisers, RPF using gunboats or CV squadrons and can never get a good launch position.  This can lead to frustrating games where you contribute little.

 

On the other hand, you will absolutely have some games where enemies get distracted, sail behind islands without changing speed so they can't spot approaching torpedoes as they come out the other side, sit too long in smoke screens or just otherwise blunder constantly into your torpedoes.

 

If you are a min-maxing power gamer and want to constantly have the highest possible advantage in every situation, then Japanese DD's are probably not the best choice because they can be maddeningly inconsistent.  American DD's are much more reliable, especially at higher tiers where they become competent torpedo boats while retaining their superior guns.  But this isn't a game that caters particularly to min-maxing power gamers and if you happen to like Japanese DD's more than just play them.  Or play both, since being a collector is definitely something this game caters to.

 

This is also true for any other DD that tries to act strictly as a torpedo boat.  Yes, some other nations' torps are less detectable than IJN ones.  But still, torpedo combat is very much hit or miss.  You can have spectacular games and you can have games where you just can't get a torp hit to save your life.

 

 

[NeutralState]

IJN DDs have very low margin for error.

[twitch133]

 

IJN DD's are a feast or famine experience.  Sometimes you will have games where you get blocked off by radar using cruisers, RPF using gunboats or CV squadrons and can never get a good launch position.  This can lead to frustrating games where you contribute little.

 

 

 

This is also true for any other DD that tries to act strictly as a torpedo boat.  Yes, some other nations' torps are less detectable than IJN ones.  But still, torpedo combat is very much hit or miss.  You can have spectacular games and you can have games where you just can't get a torp hit to save your life.

 

 

 

Correction... This is true for ANY DD other than Udaloi or Khab. I have yet to drive Khab outside of PTS. But, Udaloi is the only DD I drive that I can consistently net above 50k and a kill or two every round.

 

When I am driving Fletcher or Gearing. I seem to either get 10k or 100k. With very few games at 40-50-60k.

 

DD's are funny like that. Small, no armor, low hit point pool. You seem to either get deleted right off the bat, or are able to wreak havoc for the whole game.

[Pillager_Serj]

All i can say is I'm really damn glad I got my Fujin/Kami/Kami R. buying premium DD boats are practically money in the bank anymore with all this nerfing. My div mate absolutely despises his fletcher with stock Torpedos; ridiculously slow fish has turned him into forcing a smoke n' spot philosophy which is excellent for team play but makes him look like a potato in the stats. If they're really intending on this current meta to be "the play" for DDs they really need to score the DD line differently for mid-high tiers. I've been pretty effectively dissuaded from playing any DDs anymore simply because all the torpedo nerfs make it laughably easy to dodge or thread the needle in anything so long as you're not Iowa/Missouri/Montana.

[twitch133]

All i can say is I'm really damn glad I got my Fujin/Kami/Kami R. buying premium DD boats are practically money in the bank anymore with all this nerfing. My div mate absolutely despises his fletcher with stock Torpedos; ridiculously slow fish has turned him into forcing a smoke n' spot philosophy which is excellent for team play but makes him look like a potato in the stats. If they're really intending on this current meta to be "the play" for DDs they really need to score the DD line differently for mid-high tiers. I've been pretty effectively dissuaded from playing any DDs anymore simply because all the torpedo nerfs make it laughably easy to dodge or thread the needle in anything so long as you're not Iowa/Missouri/Montana.

 

While Fletcher may have one of the best torpedo systems in the game. Between have workable range, speed and stealth. They also have an insanely fast reload (when spec'ed for it, you can get it down to something like 85 seconds) AND really high damage.

 

Torpedoes aren't the only good part about Fletcher, it is the whole package. It sounds like your friend is completely discounting the guns on Fletcher. Which, when shooting at a battleship all the way to max range, a Cruiser within 9km or a DD within 6km.... Those guns become AMAZING. Insane rate of fire with a turret traverse that allows you to keep on target through even the most violent of evasive maneuvers.

 

What makes Fletcher such a strong ships is that, while it is not the best at any one thing, it is the second best at everything.

- Udaloi guns, while not matching in DPM, they are much more comfortable to use, and will result in a higher effective DPM.

- Yugumo torps are technically stronger. Slightly faster with a higher alpha. In practice though, you will likely see better results from Fletcher torps due to their better concealment.

-Yugumo is the stealthiest DD at its tier, Fletcher is in a close second. 

-Udaloi is the fastest, with Fletcher lagging 3.5 knots behind is second.

 

What Fletcher does have though, is the best turning circle and fastest rudder shift.

 

Just a side note. I am a huge fan of versatility. I hate despise it when they try to shoe horn a ship into being a one-trick-pony. My favorite ships to play are the most versatile. Ships that don't excel at any one thing, but do well at many things. They are also the ships that I seem to do best in. 

 

Because of this. I believe that dedicated, long range torpedo boats have no place in this game. Ships where, the only two utilities you really have are zone control, with the occasional successful torpedo strike and spotting. I think that the proper approach to IJN DD's is to either nerf their torpedoes a little bit more, or nerf their concealment. And in trade for that, give them workable guns. They don't need to be USN or VMF level of amazing. Just better.

 

 

[chewonit]

 

Way to tinfoil there mate.

 

 

They were nerfed because the promoted high;ly static campy gameplay because no one wanted to push. Ambush torping is exactly what IJN DD's where allways supposed to be doing.

 

Really? So it's no longer campy now since the long range torps are either gone or useless? Do you now push fearlessly into caps? Do you not see BBs making hard turn away from caps at the beginning of the match now?

 

Do you actually play?

 

Why do people keep lying to themselves? Camping big ships are the direct result of deadly accurate and powerful main guns. Torps was and will never be the cause of camping big ships cowarding at the back of the map behind islands.

[chewonit]

After what seems like a very 'poor little Torpedo Boats' post, I would like to add I do enjoy the line. At present I don't have CE so understand that I will lose to gunboats (rightfully so) and this will change in time. But I have also seen more Cruisers and CVs returning to the game - I think this is a really good thing, but it does make concealment a lot more difficult..

 

My honest opinion as a IJN DD mani to OP: If you really enjoy torpedo game play, grind, free-XP, buy, steal, whatever, the Fletcher. We went down the wrong line for torpedo boats. Seriously.

[Wowzery]

I always hear that CVs have disappeared.  Yet, whenever I take out a ship with low AA, I almost always get into a battle with at least one, most times two CVs.  However, take out a good AA speced ship, nope, no CVs.  I think MM is trolling me.

[Estimated_Prophet]

Torp boat action is still there, but you need more experience and patience to create steady damage in an IJN boat. I've fallen in love with Akatsuki recently, and many enjoy their Shiratsuyu. 

 

Yes...? Not the best IJN player by a long shot, but a consistent winner in Mutsuki, (9-10% above avereage WR,)arguably the most hated of all the IJN DDs. Not by area denial and stealth torping, though I do use that; but by aggressively seeking out opportunity and ambush torping at ranges where hits are a certainty.

 

Good thing too, when Battleships could get insta-deleted so easily, there was no reason to push the caps, now when it's only 1-2 torp hits per spread, it's now worth it to fight it out and take the cap, since that IJN DD has to wait a minute and a half to launch a fresh salvo.

 

See above comment; consistently get more than 1-2 hits, and generally the enemy doesn't have to worry about my next reload be cause they're sunk.

 

This is also true for any other DD that tries to act strictly as a torpedo boat.  Yes, some other nations' torps are less detectable than IJN ones.  But still, torpedo combat is very much hit or miss.  You can have spectacular games and you can have games where you just can't get a torp hit to save your life.

 

Having said what I did above, I still agree with this; I either can't seem to do a bloody thing with Mutsuki due to all defensive factors, or I wreck face.

[twitch133]

 

Really? So it's no longer campy now since the long range torps are either gone or useless? Do you now push fearlessly into caps? Do you not see BBs making hard turn away from caps at the beginning of the match now?

 

Do you actually play?

 

Why do people keep lying to themselves? Camping big ships are the direct result of deadly accurate and powerful main guns. Torps was and will never be the cause of camping big ships cowarding at the back of the map behind islands.

 

Actually.... 

 

If playing Montana, I have NO problem being willing to push against a Yamato or GK.

 

I WILL NOT push against a shimakaze though. As I know that just a few torp hits from him and there goes half of my health. And Montana is my favorite BB to counterplay DD's. Those twelve accurate rifles... really good at deleting DD's. 6 overpen's still tallies up to like 8 or 9k damage.

 

[212thAttackBattalion]

IJN DDs are no longer great at killing defenseless ships solo, due to the spotting range on their torps.  While BBs will often take a torp or two if you have a good angle, gone as the days where the BB would take crippling damage at the very least.

 

 

They may not be crippled butt they still serve the purpose of forcing the BB to pop its DCP and maybe even Repair Party, thus making it vulnerable to HE-Fire spamming cruisers and DD's to set it alight and burn it down. or if it manages to dodge them is now out of position and probably broadside to a friendly BB. IJN DD's have had their feared torps nerfed, but still do great things for the team with their walls of skill

[Royeaux]

 

Yes...? Not the best IJN player by a long shot, but a consistent winner in Mutsuki, (9-10% above avereage WR,)arguably the most hated of all the IJN DDs. Not by area denial and stealth torping, though I do use that; but by aggressively seeking out opportunity and ambush torping at ranges where hits are a certainty.

 

 

See above comment; consistently get more than 1-2 hits, and generally the enemy doesn't have to worry about my next reload be cause they're sunk.

 

 

Having said what I did above, I still agree with this; I either can't seem to do a bloody thing with Mutsuki due to all defensive factors, or I wreck face.

 

Sorry, was referring to my Kagero.  The mid-tier IJN DDs are different beasts entirely.  They aren't stuck with the glacial torpedo reload times.  The Kagero is a weird ship where I'm constantly doing 100k+ dmg, but also constantly losing those matches, since it has such poor influence at controlling the battle.

 

 

I always hear that CVs have disappeared.  Yet, whenever I take out a ship with low AA, I almost always get into a battle with at least one, most times two CVs.  However, take out a good AA speced ship, nope, no CVs.  I think MM is trolling me.

 

I know the feeling, it feels like my Dunkerque is some kind of plane magnet.  I'm sometimes the only combat ship that actually shoots down any planes.

[suleiman71]

IJN torpedo boats aren't torpedo boats.They're useless hulks of steel that aren't even stealthy past tiers 7 and 8.

 

Fletcher and Gearing are massively superior torpedo boats if Shimakaze doesn't use the F3. I think they need some serious help.

[Pillager_Serj]

It's still a matter of grinding to get those upgraded systems. my comment was only hearsay on the "stock" torpedo compliment, which i believe still holds true. the fact that Radar is seeing so much more usage now + the bloom from firing guns make that play more situational especially when you're at 6km with multiple contacts being spotted, i know i wouldn't just arbitrarily start gunboating without giving serious thought to my situational awareness. The focus was about the wall-o-fish meta being a thing of the past, and i was just highlighting one of many instances where I've personally seen that holding true.

 

Thanks for the views, I'll pass them along to my cohort