Ship Aiming and Shell Dispersion

[Sarita_Ferleaux]

Hello Warship Community!

 

Long time lurker, first time poster. Had a question about the dispersion of shells when firing at enemy ships. I am pretty sure it is just me being terrible but recently I have been playing CL/CA and BBs and when firing my guns at the ships, my lead is fine, but as I aim towards the ships deck the shells fly past. When I adjust on the next volley, I am lower (this time towards the waterline) and the shells land before the ship in the water. I am X-locked on a ship while I shoot. This has been happening for at least a week now and wondering if I am bad or if somebody else has noticed this? Are peeps just dodging my shots more with the subtle changes in angle?

 

Teach me senpai! Thanks everyone!

 

-Sarita

[TheKrimzonDemon]

Sometimes, RNGesus just doesn't like us. Dispersion also seems to be a factor at the worst possible moments. >< I was Nagato the other day, firing point blank at a Konig, and watching my shells go straight up, straight down, sidewise, over the ship, into the water short of the ship. I spent 2 minutes trying to hit that damn thing from under 2 km, and RNG basically said "EFF YOU YOU'LL SINK AND YOU'LL LIKE IT BECAUSE DISPERSION IS FUN AND ENGAGING™."

 

I about screamed at the screen. -.-

[Sarita_Ferleaux]

Yeah, that sounds exactly like the matches I have been having. Damn RNG shells. Is there anything I can do to mitigate? Usually I have been just tracing the waterline of the ship to determine the angle of its direction for my shells but dunno if there is a different way.

[Xylphan]

Yeah. Play a DD or cruiser. The dispersion on BBs is just plain stupid, making skill more or less irrelevant beyond a certain point. There have been many games where dispersion has screwed me over at point blank ranges. And if that doesn't screw you over then overpen/autobounce will.

 

Meanwhile, cruisers and dds can land most (if not all) shots in a volley at range. And of course there's those magical unbounceable torpedoes that explode for full damage if the so much as graze your hull.

 

I play BBs, but every now and then when RNGesus pisses me off by randomizing point blank shots that looks a blind womboat with a nervous disorder was firing them, I'll hop into a cruiser for a game or two just to remember how nice it is to have skill matter when shooting.

[Magic_Fighting_Tuna]

Yeah, that sounds exactly like the matches I have been having. Damn RNG shells. Is there anything I can do to mitigate? Usually I have been just tracing the waterline of the ship to determine the angle of its direction for my shells but dunno if there is a different way.

 

The best you can do to mitigate RNG is equip the aiming system modification 1 upgrade for main batteries, it tends to make the RNG more forgiving but without that sacrificial goat it can still come back and ruin your day. Overall I'm fine with system existing but when a battleship can't hit the broadside of a barn when your close enough for your crew to throw rocks at them that's rather excessive on the RNG part.

[Kenjister]

Yeah, that sounds exactly like the matches I have been having. Damn RNG shells. Is there anything I can do to mitigate? Usually I have been just tracing the waterline of the ship to determine the angle of its direction for my shells but dunno if there is a different way.

 

I dunno, from the way you described it, it sounds like you simply overshot then undershot - whether that was due to your aim or the target dodging we have no way of knowing.

You hunch is right though, at range a slight change in angle can easily throw off somebody's aim.  While it's less effective again HE throwing CAs, it does wonders against higher arcing CLs.  For CLs high accuracy causes just as many misses as it does hits.

If it was RNG messing with your dispersion you're likely to see shots both in front and below the enemy ship at the same time.

 

One good way to check how close you are is to tap the "z" key, after you shoot.  That will turn on the chase cam, which will follow the shells.  Using that you can get a better idea of what's happening!

Note:  not recommended for ships where the reload time is faster than the flight time.  

[Snargfargle]

Even the best players (according to some of the top names on the ladders that I looked up) only land about a third of their BB shells on target, and for most of us it's more like 25%. You seem to be doing quite well, as your percentage is above average for most of the BBs you play. The apparent lack of hits you are suffering from may be more perceived than real. For example, with the Scharnhorst you are just about as good as anyone at putting shells on target at 33%, which is 5% above average.

 

 

[Palladia]

The rng on BB shells is absolutely ridiculous.  My dispersion can make a perfect C shape around an enemy ship at 5km or citadel a target at 18km.  Its almost impossible to predict what its going to be.  The best I can do is remove all the random factors ((Perfectly targeted,  corrected for target speed and size)) and then pray to RNG when I pull the trigger.

[56Bravo]

The assumption of course is that there should be consistent accuracy when firing large caliber shells down range, that is false.  You're attempting to move a very heavy piece of metal a long distance at high velocity where it has immense surface area for drag, gravity, and the earths rotation to account for.  Add in that you're firing from a platform that is constantly moving in every axis and you really should be surprised a shell can find a target at all.  Thus in context, BB dispersion is normal and not just RNG's middle finger.

 

The goal with battleship gunnery is not to fret over what has been missed.  It is like a shotgun pattern, you are putting shells in an area, where good aim and lead will give a higher likelihood of hits over time.  Not every single salvo will be a 5 citadel shot, but with good aim you should see a noticeable improvement in overall damage over the course of a match. Sure it can be frustrating because we are so used to instant gratification, but hang in there, you'll eventually find a sweet spot for your ship and build some confidence.

[McDoob]

'What can you do with a drunken sailor?' Apparently make him a BB gunner.

 

Sure, dispersion is a necessary evil. But it would be nice if it was less unrealistic. My turrets' barrels are fixed to point all in one compass direction [not elevation]. So how is it possible for shells from the same turret to have such inconsistent horizontal [not vertical] trajectories? It's pretty humiliating to watch your shells, fired at a broadside Gneisenau (longest BB I could think of atm) splash him fore and aft. I've seen it happen. Hell, I've done it.

 

You want this mess to go away? Do what I did, swear off BBs. EVERY other ship class will have lower dispersion. Problem, meet solution.

[Pillager_Serj]

yay dispersion! making it laughably easy for me to x3 Citadel ships left and right for my first 2 rounds ever in the Missouri...then creating x3 bounces off Myokos and Pensacolas for the next 10+ rounds.

[NeutralState]

Think in triangles.

 

There are only few things you can do to adjust aim. There is a ceiling regarding hit chance defined by the dispersion value.

To adjust aim for ships sailing off angle (not parallel to the player's ship) extend a line from the bow or aft, depending on target's direction of travel. Elevate or depress aiming regarding to that line. Remember, triangles, if the aim's elevated, then the actual distance of shell's travel changes, so the lead has to be adjusted as well.

 

As Deadshot explains:

 

 

In game example (can't find more pronounced example, but this should be fine, notice the depressed reticle to the actual target):

https://clips.twitch.tv/tertiacyrenaica/BusyHorseNinjaTroll

[General_von_Nuben]

OP, skill will only take you so far with BB gunnery.  As others have said, 33% hits is about the highest consistent value you'll ever get.  

 

For better or worse, WG has balanced the insane alpha of BB guns by essentially making luck a major factor in determining whether the shots go where you aim.  Because if BBs had CA/CL accuracy, anyone with decent aim would annihilate everything they shoot at in short order.

 

Getting hits with BBs involves a two-step process.  The first is "aiming correctly."  This is a term of art.  If you "aim correctly," you'll notice much better shot dispersion than if you aim "incorrectly."  It is a skill to learn where the "correct aim point" is for every ship, speed and attack angle.  Then comes step two.  Even when "aiming correctly," then the luck factor takes over.  Sometimes your shots will still straddle or go into the ether, even at extremely close range.  Other times, luck will oblige and you'll get some big hits.

 

I love BBs, but RNG dispersion is probably the most depressing thing for me about this game, and the reason I can never move beyond a certain level of lukewarm enthusiasm for it.  When luck plays such a major role in outcomes, the game degenerates into little more than a slot machine contest.  It is worse at the lower tiers: Tier 3-5 BBs have noticeably worse dispersion than higher tier BBs (exception: Nikolai, because Russian).

 

Nonetheless, it is possible to learn skills, like "aiming correctly," positioning, angling, survivability.  These things will keep you alive longer and shooting more.  And the more shots you shoot, the more likely RNG will throw you a bone.  

 

As Jingles as said about BB accuracy, "the more S--- you throw at a wall, the more likely some of it will stick."  That's what BB gunnery boils down to, in a nutshell.

 

One recommendation I do have is to play higher-tier Co-Op.  The bots rarely ever give you broadsides.  Learn where to "aim correctly." Internalize it, make it second nature.  That has helped me immensely.  Some of my BBs have 33-34% hit rates in PvP as a result of my practice doing this.  You actually get more broadside targets in PvP, I find.  And when you're used to shooting nothing but heavily angled targets in Co-Op, you'll see huge results in PvP.

[McDoob]

 

One recommendation I do have is to play higher-tier Co-Op.  The bots rarely ever give you broadsides.  Learn where to "aim correctly." Internalize it, make it second nature.  That has helped me immensely.  Some of my BBs have 33-34% hit rates in PvP as a result of my practice doing this.  You actually get more broadside targets in PvP, I find.  And when you're used to shooting nothing but heavily angled targets in Co-Op, you'll see huge results in PvP.

 

This.

 

That's exactly what Co-Op mode is for. Practice.

[Canadatron]

INB4 "I'd have 1800 WTR instead of 750, If it weren't for that Dog, those meddling kids and RNGsus"....

 

 

[Magic_Fighting_Tuna]

The assumption of course is that there should be consistent accuracy when firing large caliber shells down range, that is false.  You're attempting to move a very heavy piece of metal a long distance at high velocity where it has immense surface area for drag, gravity, and the earths rotation to account for.  Add in that you're firing from a platform that is constantly moving in every axis and you really should be surprised a shell can find a target at all.  Thus in context, BB dispersion is normal and not just RNG's middle finger.

 

The goal with battleship gunnery is not to fret over what has been missed.  It is like a shotgun pattern, you are putting shells in an area, where good aim and lead will give a higher likelihood of hits over time.  Not every single salvo will be a 5 citadel shot, but with good aim you should see a noticeable improvement in overall damage over the course of a match. Sure it can be frustrating because we are so used to instant gratification, but hang in there, you'll eventually find a sweet spot for your ship and build some confidence.

 

You make a good point but context doesn't really fit seeing how this would normally effect cruisers and destroyers as well and they never experience wacky dispersion like battleships so the finger goes back to RNG, but this system needs to exist to keep battleships from knocking everything out of the water.

[Palladia]

 

You make a good point but context doesn't really fit seeing how this would normally effect cruisers and destroyers as well and they never experience wacky dispersion like battleships so the finger goes back to RNG, but this system needs to exist to keep battleships from knocking everything out of the water.

 

But battleship guns are already 'balanced' with extremely long reload times and overpenning.  I am not saying that battleships should be able to nail everything accurately at 20km every time,  but if I have a target under 8km and I have adequately accounted for all of the variables seeing two shots from the same gun placement straddle the target on either side is just ridiculous.  Seeing it happen across multiple placements even more so.  I just don't think that 'well,  randomly your shots are going to go into wild places that are nowhere near where you were aiming.' is a good balancing factor.

[_WaveRider_]

Yeah. Play a DD or cruiser. The dispersion on BBs is just plain stupid, making skill more or less irrelevant beyond a certain point. There have been many games where dispersion has screwed me over at point blank ranges. And if that doesn't screw you over then overpen/autobounce will.

 

Meanwhile, cruisers and dds can land most (if not all) shots in a volley at range. And of course there's those magical unbounceable torpedoes that explode for full damage if the so much as graze your hull.

 

I play BBs, but every now and then when RNGesus pisses me off by randomizing point blank shots that looks a blind womboat with a nervous disorder was firing them, I'll hop into a cruiser for a game or two just to remember how nice it is to have skill matter when shooting.

 

I know it is probably counter productive but is there any chance you could let me know what model torpedoes your refering to?

 

I would love to use these torpedoes that are not spotted by DDs, CAs - their planes, any CV planes, Hydro, not affected by Vigilance, change direction to keep on track with any course change by the BB, negate the torpedo armor belt AND hit for full damage.

 

And you complain about a little dispersion! 

[Xylphan]

 

I know it is probably counter productive but is there any chance you could let me know what model torpedoes your refering to?

 

I would love to use these torpedoes that are not spotted by DDs, CAs - their planes, any CV planes, Hydro, not affected by Vigilance, change direction to keep on track with any course change by the BB, negate the torpedo armor belt AND hit for full damage.

 

And you complain about a little dispersion! 

 

Are you deliberately misinterpreting my comment?

 

Torpedoes don't "bounce". Torpedoes don't overpen. Torpedoes don't speed off in random directions when you shoot them. You can actually use skill and technique to improve your torpedo hit rate. You even get a helpful little lead indicator. More importantly though, even if you miss with your torpedoes you're not sitting there useless for the next 30 seconds.

 

But with BB shells, it doesn't matter how accurate you are, RNGesus can still make you miss even point blank shots. Unless the ship is within range of your secondaries, you're a free target.

[_WaveRider_]

 

Are you deliberately misinterpreting my comment?

 

Torpedoes don't "bounce". Torpedoes don't overpen. Torpedoes don't speed off in random directions when you shoot them. You can actually use skill and technique to improve your torpedo hit rate. You even get a helpful little lead indicator. More importantly though, even if you miss with your torpedoes you're not sitting there useless for the next 30 seconds.

 

But with BB shells, it doesn't matter how accurate you are, RNGesus can still make you miss even point blank shots. Unless the ship is within range of your secondaries, you're a free target.

 

And with the best hit average being around 15% it seems that 85% of torpedoes don't hit according to stats. And yes you can use skill and technique to improve the torpedo hit rate; experience helps a great deal and torpedo reloads are longer than 30 seconds.

 

Look when you talked about having an easier time by going to play in a Cruiser I thought you were joking (especially with the  after the comment). I had no idea you were being serious as, to be honest, such a comment on how easy Cruisers have it, seems quite insulting to Cruiser players who probably fall foul of your 'terrible dispersion'. However, everything I said about torpedoes and the things they have to get by to hit the target is true.

 

I'm sorry you feel so aggrieved at how BBs perform, maybe you could/should try another class or take a break from the game?

[Chrifister]

So where does skill come in for BB players when every captain can properly aim? Skill is then replaced by whoever is luckiest. I've had too many battles where luck was the deciding factor. Slinging shells at each other at 18 km has nothing to do with skill because by tier 4 everybody knows how to aim.

 

The only time skill comes into play is positioning your BB to minimize RNG and live to tell about it. This means putting yourself in the position to get a nice, close range broadside of somebody, preferably under 8 km, if it's not too dangerous. Setting yourself up to get low RNG and consistently high alpha strikes is what I consider skilled.

 

I think all ships should have the same dispersion ratios as BBs. Maybe make it scale with gun size. I play all classes but I still find it annoying that a DD from 15 km or a CA from 16 km has amazing dispersion compared to BBs. Maybe that'll cut down on sniping as well.

[_WaveRider_]

So where does skill come in for BB players when every captain can properly aim? Skill is then replaced by whoever is luckiest. I've had too many battles where luck was the deciding factor. Slinging shells at each other at 18 km has nothing to do with skill because by tier 4 everybody knows how to aim.

 

The only time skill comes into play is positioning your BB to minimize RNG and live to tell about it. This means putting yourself in the position to get a nice, close range broadside of somebody, preferably under 8 km, if it's not too dangerous. Setting yourself up to get low RNG and consistently high alpha strikes is what I consider skilled.

 

I think all ships should have the same dispersion ratios as BBs. Maybe make it scale with gun size. I play all classes but I still find it annoying that a DD from 15 km or a CA from 16 km has amazing dispersion compared to BBs. Maybe that'll cut down on sniping as well.

 

I'm not sure if I understand what you are saying but if everyone is identical in their aim then yes, it will come down to luck. What else do you think it will come down to if every captain can properly aim and are the same? If you wish to include the map and navigation skills then of course a level of skill is reintroduced.

 

If I'd wanted the specs a BB has then I would captain a BB. If you want what the other classes have then try them out. Everyone is free to choose what they want.

[Xylphan]

 

And with the best hit average being around 15% it seems that 85% of torpedoes don't hit according to stats. And yes you can use skill and technique to improve the torpedo hit rate; experience helps a great deal and torpedo reloads are longer than 30 seconds.

 

Look when you talked about having an easier time by going to play in a Cruiser I thought you were joking (especially with the  after the comment). I had no idea you were being serious as, to be honest, such a comment on how easy Cruisers have it, seems quite insulting to Cruiser players who probably fall foul of your 'terrible dispersion'. However, everything I said about torpedoes and the things they have to get by to hit the target is true.

 

I'm sorry you feel so aggrieved at how BBs perform, maybe you could/should try another class or take a break from the game?

 

Maybe you should try some reading comprehension?

 

I did NOT say cruisers had it easy. I did NOT say torpedoes are instagib ez win. I am NOT saying or implying BBs need to be buffed in any way shape or form, nor was that even the point of the thread.

 

The point of the thread is that the RNG dispersion on BBs is ridiculous, and it is. When you can perfectly aim a volley at ship 5 km away and still miss the ship with an entire broadside, that's ridiculous. I'm fully aware that this was done for "balance" due to the high damage output of BBs, but the argument here is that it's a rather lame way to compensate. I'd rather have BBs do LESS damage and have a lower dispersion than have high damage and high dispersion. The RNG factor penalizes you even with good aim, and that's a discouraging mechanic.

 

Stop reading into what isn't there and stop trying to put words in my mouth. 

[_WaveRider_]

Ok. I have obviously misread your complaint about how other ships are better than the BB because of the dispersion.

 

You did not say Cruisers were easier to hit targets and you did not say torpedoes always hit for full damage if they so much as 'graze your hull'. 

[Madwolf05]

I haven't really found dispersion that big of an obstacle outside of a few ships at the start of each tree.

 

That being said you're playing a game about ships that always had elliptical dispersion patterns. If you expected laser accuracy you set yourself up with false expectations.

 

Battleships are by the metrics the best ships in the game. If their hit chance was so bad they wouldn't target cruisers so often at long distances.