ADLA "What If" - USS Shangri La

[WanderingGhost]

So, putting this one out soon because well, basically did it and Hornets at the same time due to overlap. Plus this one is significantly easier because well, we already have the lead ship of the class in game - The USS Essex. So as the title says:

 

USS Shangri La (or how I learned to stop worrying and love the bomb)

 

[insert preferred picture here]

 

So, when it comes right down to it, for the most part this was just another Essex Class carrier. The most easily found information of interest usually is the fact that it was named for a fictional city because FDR said the Doolitle raid took off from "Shangri La" and that it took part in operation crossroads as a support ship. Decommissioned not long after, brought back after Korea started and was modernized, made it to the Vietnam era and ended her career as a  sub hunter. Generally speaking compared to other ships in game a fairly boring history. Except for one fact that sometimes is forgotten. After she was completed, but before seeing combat in 1944, the USN decided to run some tests. Partially for the sake of them, partially to hit the Japanese main islands some more, and to better escort long range bombers over Japan. And to that end, the Navy modified a PBJ-1H (Navy/Marine version of the B-25H) and a P-51D Mustang for carrier operations. Both aircraft successfully launched and landed aboard the carrier multiple times. The PBJ they just kinda lost interest in developing the idea further, The P-51D had some advantages of the F6F and Corsair such as it was easier to see over the nose, but the minor modifications made left it with a narrow gap between stall speed and max speed the wires could sustain and a couple bugs that needed tweaking to make it safer to operate from a carrier, but it was doable (The P-51H would be tested the same fixing most of those issues) but with land bases in range now available well, they didn't need the Mustang launching off carriers as a fighter escort.

 

So on this one I'm going a bit out of the box here and off the reservation. What if the Navy HAD decided to continue both projects to their end and decided to have a CV operating PBJ's and Mustangs? And what if Wargaming actually decided to add it? Hence the "What if" attached to the title. Clearly this breaks the rule of a premium being historically accurate, sure these were tested on the ship and never operated off it and no way would this make the tech tree I think, but, an interesting idea to me and who knows, maybe it could be a reward like the ARP ships or SDK.

 

Size and weight

Weight: 33,000 long tons (loaded)

Length: 888 ft (271 m)

Beam: 93 ft (28 m)

Draft: 28 ft 7 in (8.71 m)

 

Basically, the idea is a stock Essex, knock it down to 53,000 HP (or the 53,600 of the stock hull)and our good to go, less HP than Lex, little more than Shokaku.

 

Armour

 

Belt: 4 in (100 mm)

Hangar Deck: 2.5 in (60 mm)

Conning Tower: 1.5 in (40 mm)

 

Same layout as Essex, but lets be honest here. Except MAYBE tier 8+ IJN carriers that have spots of 200 mm armour, you could put any CV at any tier you wanted as long as you nerf the hitpoints enough and make sure damage is in line. Independence at tier 6 has areas better armoured than this (funny right?). It might save you from a tier 3 or lower ship, keyword might but than again who really throws AP at CV's? Everyone wants to start the fire.

 

Weaponry

 

Secondary: 12x 5"(127 mm)/38 cal guns (4x2, 4x1)

AA: 32x 40 mm (8x4) and 46x 20 mm (46x1) guns

 

Standard armament of the Essex class. Far from OP to be at tier 8 given Lexington actually has more AA in it's stock configuration. Fun fact - Essex top upgrade - 563 DPS, Lex top upgrade - 568, and that's with the numbers rounded down on all of them. Also has less secondary guns than Lex, question would be do they keep the 5 km range or get reduced to 4.5 like Lex.

 

Speed

 

Speed - 32.7 - 33 knots.

 

I find both numbers as speeds for the ship and class, but likely just go with 33 for consistency. Would also give it stock Essex's rudder shift. 

 

Concealment

 

14.94 km for surface, 14.4 km by air - same as Essex. Upside - still stealthier than Lex

 

Aviation

 

Aircraft carried: 90-100

Aircraft typed: in this case PBJ-1H and P-51D Mustang (naval versions) [possibly TBF/M Avenger]

 

The one section that will have some real detail since I'm not rehashing what we basically already have in game. We'll start with the big one - the PBJ.

 

The PBJ-1H was the USN/USMC designation of the B-25H medium bombers they acquired. The armament on this aircraft is to say the least, impressive. The version tested on Shangri La had 8 forward firing .50 cal machine guns, a .50 waist gun on each side, a top turret and tail turret both with twin .50 cal guns ...... and a 75 mm cannon. As well as the ability to carry rockets, bombs, even torpedo's. Though, in game more of a factor would be the defensive armament, which is pretty significant, and the general aircraft durability, speed, though, it's not particularly fast, the Avengers are slightly faster than it. Wargaming doesn't seem to factor forward armament on bombers as it is and well, as of yet cant strafe ships so can't use that that 75 mm to maybe give a DD a headache or better knock out modules on cruisers and BB's. In regards to implementing them in game on this one I'd suggest more regular group sizes, 6 aircraft, with high survivability and defense against fighters, but trading speed and range spotted for it. I'd also say give them the standard 1000 pound US bomb at the tier, can't really justify giving it more granted it could certainly carry. Also much as these could serve as TB's as well, I kinda hesitate to suggest it as a heavily armoured TB that would be harder to down than likely anything else in game.... yeah that won't end well unless manual drop is removed.

 

Almost the opposite of that, we have the P-51D, arguably one of the most if not the most iconic aircraft of WWII. Fast and long ranged, it changed the war in Europe now that B-17's could get an escort all the way in. However, it's success in the pacific was admittedly a bit more limited, where radial engines were king due to ease of maintenance, reliability, etc. In game, these would be a tier 8 fighter, competing against the (judging by model in game) similarly armed F4U-1 Corsair and heavier armed N1K. Differentiating it primarily from the F4U would be that it's survivability would be a bit lower (as the liquid cooled engine was easier to disable and all) but would however be a faster aircraft (as it was indeed faster than the F4U-1 by a bit and it's role was a bit more of an interceptor) meaning it can run an enemy down quicker and better dictate when it engages. Another thought would be having a group of these dedicated to attack, carrying smaller bomb loadouts than the PBJ's, or again, make it a bit different work out a way to have them armed with rockets, so that they are say more accurate, lower damage, but better at taking out AA/secondary guns and maybe starting fires.

 

Possibly as an option, have the TBM's for a TB group instead of P-51's with rockets or smaller bombs, out tiered a little as tier 7's yes, but they did operate from the carrier.

 

Unlike the last one, these would operate a bit more like a standard USN carrier. I'm thinking in terms of options -

Without Avengers

2 groups fighters, 1 group strike fighters, 1 group bombers

1 group fighters, 1 group strike fighters, 2 groups bombers

2 groups fighters and 2 groups bombers

or 1 group fighters, 2 groups strike fighters, 1 group bombers

 

With Avengers

 

2 Groups fighters, 1 group TB, 1 group bombers or 1 group fighters, 1 group TB, 2 groups bombers. The outside option being 1 group fighters, 1 group strike fighters, 1 group TB, 1 group bombers. 

 

I lean more toward the idea of not using the avengers, but the level of usefulness of bombs as it is rather well documented, or rather, the lack there of - the reason typically USN CV's are STILL sacrificing a group to run mix or going full strike. As well as sheer numbers needed because of AA. In terms of number of aircraft, it could have similar numbers to the other tier 8's (The B-25's are a bit bigger than even the avenger) though, I'd also stick with 90 or close to it. With the idea that the bombers are hopefully durable enough to come back (and maybe not get auto deleted by strafing) I would have the numbers they can replenish limited in comparison to normal CV's, with most of the planes being replenishment for the fighters and if worked in strike fighters. Mainly because as said above the P-51's will be a bit on the weaker side health wise. This means that, even potentially with help they may be taking more losses more often, so will need that bit more reinforcement. Same goes with the Avengers if that road is taken, IJN players know all too well what it's like having out tiered TB's. The general idea would be the fighters trying to control the sky where they can, the strike fighters being more meant to soften up heavier ships AA (they may not have health but hopefully the speed they'd have would get them in and out before major losses are incurred) or for going after DD's (the one thing a barrage of 5 inch rockets may do some real damage to other than other CV's) with the PBJ's mainly being for hitting the larger ships. Or your very typical USN of fighters to own the air, or some extra bombers at the cost of fighters. However in this case not going with the "all or nothing" Wargaming has forced on USN but having the options closer to what tier 9 has (and what USN needs) where no matter what you have at least a fighter but it varies the number of bombers. Giving the CV sufficient flexibility to actually be of use to the team.

 

Not putting my usual "Overall Ratings" section in here because it's basically built around being a tier 8, like most "stock hull" down tiered premiums.

 

Pro's

-Better stealth than Lex

- More flexible air groups

- more resilient bombers with decent defense hopefully leading to fewer losses and possible ability to let fighters focus on fleet defense

- Faster fighters allow the player to better react and cover the map

- Good Speed

 

Possible Pro's

- More aircraft in reserve (if not reduced)

- Strike fighters rockets are good at knocking out AA/Secondaries and decent fire starters and dealing damage to DD's

 

Con's

- Still not as stealthy as the better armoured Shokaku

- AA is fairly low especially compared against carriers of it's tier

- fewer secondaries than other CV's of tier to defend against close range DD's

- Slower bombers spend more time in AA and are easier to be caught by enemy fighters

- Lower HP of fighters means potentially losing more faster even 1v1

 

Possible Con's

- Strike fighters lower HP can lead to losses, Rockets are relatively low/minimal damage against most cruisers and capital ships

- Avenger Torpedo Bombers are out tiered, meaning they tend to take more losses due to higher tier AA.

-Lack of TB's means limited alpha damage and primarily reliant on lighting fires and keeping them burning

 

Conclusions

 

Unlike the majority of CV's I plan to cover (unless people beat me to others and I don't disagree with them) this one despite being a premium kinda plays with the rules on premiums being historic and certainly verges on breaking them, seeing as they never fully operated in this manor from the carrier. However like Doolittle Raid Hornet, I think it's a neat idea as something that'd be kinda different without straying too far from history into lala land like with the ARP ships, amusing as I find them at times, except the part of Japanese girls screaming at me in, to quote Dr. Briefs from DBZ: Abridged "damned moon speak". Especially given that like this suggestion in it's own way, this carrier arose from a fiction based on reality. FDR said the Doolittle Raid was launched from Shangri La, and so this carrier came to be later on and would later launch a B-25 as well. She may have never operated these in a full capacity, but she did test them successfully. On this, I know it's likely the longest shot on happening at all, barring some huge positive response and Wargaming "Know what, yeah, we'll make that, why not", but, crazy ideas I thought I'd put out there. A neat idea (to me) and something a little different.

 

So, not as detailed as my other two, but well, covering a ship where the class is in game, people generally have an idea on most of the specs and well, about the only interesting things really are it was the flagship of Senator McCain's Grandfather John McCain Sr TF 38 and a minor collision with a destroyer during Vietnam where a sailor on the DD was killed and another on it injured. Must of the interesting stuff was it being used sort of as a testing ship for potential new toys for the Navy.

 

There's definitely going to be more time between this one and my next. Next one I'm thinking covering a UK CV so if anyone has any suggestions on a UK CV they'd like to see one of these for - post it below.

[Colonel_ace]

B-25 is one of my favorite planes; I had the chance to stick my head in one at an air show and could name many of the internal components when i was 13. This carrier setup could add a lot of variety to carrier play. Also, i don't think adding a rocket attack from planes to the game would be that difficult. The B-25s would probably get torpedoes... maybe 2 per plane? 

[WanderingGhost]

B-25 is one of my favorite planes; I had the chance to stick my head in one at an air show and could name many of the internal components when i was 13. This carrier setup could add a lot of variety to carrier play. Also, i don't think adding a rocket attack from planes to the game would be that difficult. The B-25s would probably get torpedoes... maybe 2 per plane? 

 

Nah,they could oly carry one torpedo, however one of the USN attack planes could carry 3 but well, more than one would be OP as hell. Plus like I said, very tanky plane with torpedo's while manual drop is still a thing, likely a bad idea.

[Lord_Magus]

Nah,they could oly carry one torpedo, however one of the USN attack planes could carry 3 but well, more than one would be OP as hell.

 

The Martin AM Mauler could carry 3 torpedoes. The Douglas AD Skyraider might have been able to as well (its max payload was 8000lb and a Mark 13 aerial torpedo weighs 2216lb) but unlike the Mauler I've never seen a photo of one carrying that load and I don't know if any of the underwing hardpoints were actually rated for that heavy a load (biggest I've seen are 2000lb bombs on the inboard hardpoints). I do know that the only time Skyraiders actually carried torpedoes in combat, they only carried 1 torp each.

 

But yes having multiple torps dropped per plane would be seriously OP.

[_Guest_]

Look at my Avatar, USS Shangri-La.  My father was a photographers mate at the end of the war, and got off just before the Bikini tests.  

 

I have a number of original pictures he brought back of the B25, P51 as well as the experimental twin engine fighter, F7F that crumpled upon landing.  Put a squadron of those on her.  

[AphelionMarauder]

USS Shangri La (or how I learned to stop worrying and love the bomb)

 

 

 

[For the record, I was REALLY hoping someone was going to make a reference to this movie at one point, and sure enough it was made! Hazaa!]

[Ace_04]

Clearly this breaks the rule of a premium being historically accurate.....

 

Um, when has that ever been a rule? 

[RoundsDownRange]

Also the B-25s would be a one time use, they could take off from the deck, but there is no way in hell they were going to land on the deck.  I still like thought of B-25ing a Yamato 

 

[D_I_P_Scout]

That would be interesting.  B-25H attack aircraft strafing dd and cruisers!

[RoundsDownRange]

That would be interesting.  B-25H attack aircraft strafing dd and cruisers!

 

OOOO Ouch!! your mean.....I like it

[Heiggwinie]

The Douglas XTB2D Skypirate could carry four torpedoes, was being designed during WWII for Essex and Midway carriers.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_XTB2D_Skypirate

[OseanTanker]

Since the B-25 is rather large plane, I doubt the ship would be able to carry as many planes as a standard Essex. I could see this working with the PBJ serving as both the torpedo bomber and the "dive" bomber (only using the term dive bomber to separate it from torpedo bombers), just give them different amount of planes per squadron. Can make the TBs similar to the Saipan with only 3 planes per squad while giving the "dive" bombers 5 to 6 planes. Fighters could be the usual 6 as well. Give it a 2/1/1 loadout.

 

This will probably never happen, but still a +1 for the inventiveness!

[WanderingGhost]

 

 

 

[For the record, I was REALLY hoping someone was going to make a reference to this movie at one point, and sure enough it was made! Hazaa!]

 

I was hoping someone would get it, or at least mention they got it - if none has been made sooner well that's just a damned shame.

 

Also the B-25s would be a one time use, they could take off from the deck, but there is no way in hell they were going to land on the deck.  I still like thought of B-25ing a Yamato 

 

Only true for USS Hornet, but for the sake of Gameplay in my write up on that one I say bend the rules of reality - partially because of this ship because it launched AND RECOVERED the B-25 multiple times. 

 

 

Um, when has that ever been a rule? 

 

Pretty much always - barring oddball's like the ARP ships, maybe the Fujin/Kamikaze (they could just be paint schemes, not sure) All premium ships have been a representation said ship at a particular time in it's service. Least in terms of name, paint, modules, aircraft, etc. Scharn is the typical of that class and I believe the AA and all is her earlier suite, but I could be wrong and it's what she had when she went down, Saipan did in fact operate those planes, part of why she didn't make the the tree, Ark Beta, albeit a reward, is the Wyoming class as built basically with no AA at all, Belfast is as she appears today basically if I recall correctly (or some post war refit). It's another part of what makes them different from the tech tree - the ships of the tech tree are actually a representation of the class as a whole or have "what if" upgrades. Case of each -Lex is actually Saratoga, Bismarck's upgrade is pyre fiction, not even Tirpitz got it. I'm only even suggesting it because it stretches history, but doesn't fully go against it.

 

Look at my Avatar, USS Shangri-La.  My father was a photographers mate at the end of the war, and got off just before the Bikini tests.  

 

I have a number of original pictures he brought back of the B25, P51 as well as the experimental twin engine fighter, F7F that crumpled upon landing.  Put a squadron of those on her.  

 

That's awesome. And I considered the F7F, however, I couldn't confirm that they operated/tested the plane. Always another option and I believe Wargaming modeled it before release but was pulled from the tech tree (or was still there before the overhaul last spring). Though, I think I'd rather see the F7F replace the F8F at the top tier on Midway, especially with the British coming and their ability to launch twin engine aircraft like the Mosquito and Hornet. 

 

Since the B-25 is rather large plane, I doubt the ship would be able to carry as many planes as a standard Essex. I could see this working with the PBJ serving as both the torpedo bomber and the "dive" bomber (only using the term dive bomber to separate it from torpedo bombers), just give them different amount of planes per squadron. Can make the TBs similar to the Saipan with only 3 planes per squad while giving the "dive" bombers 5 to 6 planes. Fighters could be the usual 6 as well. Give it a 2/1/1 loadout.

 

This will probably never happen, but still a +1 for the inventiveness!

 

Depends actually where they parked them - as it stands Essex class could carry 90-100+. And actually the B-25 is fairly small, when you consider that a B-25 is only 12 feet in length and wingspan longer than the TBF/M Avenger. You only lose 1 Avenger per 3 B-25's nose to tail, 4 wing to wing. And while it is small there is some space savings with the Mustang over the F4U - though this is all based on extended wings.  Like I said, though, I'm hesitant to give a CV TB's with that much defense, even at 2/1/1 rather see it have a bit of a drawback using Avengers at tier 8 while having "DB's" that aren't exactly taking losses or be a 2/0/2. If I wasn't afraid of balance issues, especially with things like Manual Drops still in play I'd suggest it, but writing these on the off chance Wargaming people look and go "That's a good idea" or it gets a following, rather propose ideas in a format that should be balanced for the game (at the time of the writing) so Wargaming would really just have to model the ship/aircraft, program it and plug in the numbers. Especially as one of the opponents to Saipan's existence in game let alone place on the tech tree to be buyable unlike Nikolai.

 

And yes, a long shot border-lining impossible, but maybe enough people show interest, Wargaming considers it because money.