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kinnard63

DDs the new BB

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Ive noticed lately a lot of DDs refuse to scout or cap. Or the DD that Set up at c and decides a would be better especially by themselves. I play DDs a lot and die alot but I feel like if your going to play a dd you should try to fulfill your role and at least scout for the fleet. I know a lot of destroyers arent great at caps ( Detection etc.) But DDs are the front line and you leave your team in bind when you dont even try scout or cap and set half a match next to island waiting for someone to blunder into torp range. Kinda like the BBs that group behind islands and snipe and if the rest of the fleet does the dirty work they grow balls and actually move into open water and lumber into the cap that was taken 5 mins before. 

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The game has changed a lot, DD's aren't as stout as they once were, they need support from cruisers if they're going to push up.

Cap values as far as points go is small, so risking being sunk just to claim a cap needs to be weighed all the time.

The list goes on and on.

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   DD's do seem a little more hesitant. I've been playing a little more of them out of frustration since playing a DD right feels like the best way to control your win rate.

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Agreed, clearly im a little frustrated. My play style is push and damn the torpedoes which is why my stats are sunk. But i lose it when i notice the shima 300 k from the action or caps spamming torps and chasing cvs . Sorry just venting-On a lighter note I love this game glhf

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The game is becoming campier in general. For example, low tier battles used to be fun brawls where almost no one camped. But now, it's no different from the higher tier matches. 

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Ive noticed lately a lot of DDs refuse to scout or cap. Or the DD that Set up at c and decides a would be better especially by themselves. I play DDs a lot and die alot but I feel like if your going to play a dd you should try to fulfill your role and at least scout for the fleet. I know a lot of destroyers arent great at caps ( Detection etc.) But DDs are the front line and you leave your team in bind when you dont even try scout or cap and set half a match next to island waiting for someone to blunder into torp range. Kinda like the BBs that group behind islands and snipe and if the rest of the fleet does the dirty work they grow balls and actually move into open water and lumber into the cap that was taken 5 mins before. 

 

Glad you brought up the subject.... here's a viewpoint... 

 

I am not going to "drag race" cruisers to a cap at the start of a match. I do not believe they have concealment values anywhere near my Kami R, as an example. Do I want to be neck and neck with a cruiser that has a 10km concealment range? Heck no! Do I want that cruiser anywhere closer than 5km behind me? Again, heck no! 

 

Sure - red can presume a DD is moving to cap but having a cruiser anchoring itself to your stern as you attempt to cap is a sure-fire way to ensure the cap mission will fail. Now - on top of this - add the cruiser and battleship players who tell you it is your role, your job to lead the way. Nope - complete fail mission if any red are near the cap. 

 

I will not race a cruiser to cap. The "meta" seems to indicate cruisers attempting to play the role of destroyers these days. It never ends well.

 

Nor does firing on red targets already targeted with torps by a destroyer. Especially at the end of a match. If the people driving those "big boats" would engage the reds then destroyers could/would cap. When they do not, destroyers must attack and try to cap and do everything possible to reduce the number of reds and win the match. 

 

Those big ships firing at reds when a destroyer has torps on the way only forces the target to alter course; not because they see torps but because they are taking enemy fire. A sure kill turns into a waste of torpedoes. Again. Again. And again. 

 

So roles when being discussed need to encompass the entire spectrum of game play. There are times for you to fire and engage... there are other times when you can act in a defensive manner to draw the reds into a kill zone, not push them out of one. 

 

TL;DR - Roles are dynamic. Everyone can spot, everyone can cap. Be fluid like a river, not a boulder. 

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I'm sorry, but in my Russian destroyers I'm simply NOT going to be pushing caps early in the match. That just gives away all my boats advantages and plays into the hands of US destroyers. 

 

I actually LIKE that destroyers on my team don't speed off alone to the nearest cap. 

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Ive noticed lately a lot of DDs refuse to scout or cap. Or the DD that Set up at c and decides a would be better especially by themselves. I play DDs a lot and die alot but I feel like if your going to play a dd you should try to fulfill your role and at least scout for the fleet. I know a lot of destroyers arent great at caps ( Detection etc.) But DDs are the front line and you leave your team in bind when you dont even try scout or cap and set half a match next to island waiting for someone to blunder into torp range. Kinda like the BBs that group behind islands and snipe and if the rest of the fleet does the dirty work they grow balls and actually move into open water and lumber into the cap that was taken 5 mins before. 

 

There are three groups of factors feeding this problem:

 

(1) WG's formulaic and unimaginative map construction which creates cramped, walled caps. These caps leave few exits for a DD that gets in trouble, and there are many of them -- A and C in Hotspot, B in Loop, A in Okinawa, etc. I never go in B in Loop in the opening minutes of a match, it is suicide, and similarly avoid walled caps on other maps. Since WG wrecked the Fire map capping in a DD on it is extremely difficult, especially since some idiot made sure that the DDs spawned away from A, the only open water cap. WG hates open water because it creates maps that permit flexibility and teamwork and result in long games, while WG wants brawls that end in collapses. So expect more cramped, constricted, unplayable maps in the future, meaning that this problem will not go away.

 

(2) Power creep: the high tiers used to be populated by BBs with 30 second reloads and cruisers with 15 second reloads. Now the British cruisers with 4-6 second reloads can fire out of smoke at a DD, and many powerful gunboat DDs can wreck -- all the Russky DDs, as well as the Akizuki. Stealth capping DDs have been power creeped out of a job. I decided after several unfortunate games in recent weeks that I will cap in a 6.6 detect or higher DD only in caps with lots of open water, like the two side caps on Two Brothers. The Belfast is especially cancerous, one of the most OP ships in the game in the hands of a skilled captain.

 

(3) Radar is a cancer on the game, and it is spreading. Now even battleships sport it. At some point in the not too distant future it will be possible to field entire teams in which every ship is radar equipped, and similarly, at some point radar will creep down to T6 and probably, T5 (what? history? what's that?). Radar makes playing a DD even more of a trial, and makes capping by DD even more hazardous. When radar ships are present many DDs hesitate to offer themselves as sacrifices.

 

As a DD main, I find myself more and more playing cap denial rather than cap contesting. Teams are better off contesting caps by shoving cruisers and BBs into them as rapidly as possible. Rather than relying on DDs to push forward. Frankly, I am tired of being radared and then erased. It does not make for fun and engaging gameplay, but dragged out, demoralizing gameplay. I doubt WG will reconsider the cancerous addition of radar, though. It wants DDs dead, and fast.

 

Thus, like it or not, WG has screwed the previous and extremely fun meta by wrecking T5 and T6 where DDs can still cap and there is no radar, forcing everyone to play at the brutal, collapse-infested higher tiers of 7-10. The game's meta is evolving rapidly, so expect even less DD capping in the future...

Edited by Taichunger
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Radar does seem to be crumbling the destroyer role as a scout and/or capper.  Your detection range means little when you know a cruiser 9.5 km away can light you up with radar at any moment.  Perhaps you can evade his shots for 30 seconds...unless he has other ships with him.  So, destroyers become even more shy.  As the game evolves and radar is put on more ships, and other 'interesting' spotting mechanics like RPF make their way in, destroyers continue to suffer.

 

I am not saying the destroyer aspect of the game is broken, but it does seem to be moving that way.

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 As a DD main, I find myself more and more playing cap denial rather than cap contesting. Teams are better off contesting caps by shoving cruisers and BBs into them as rapidly as possible. Rather than relying on DDs to push forward. Frankly, I am tired of being radared and then erased. It does not make for fun and engaging gameplay, but dragged out, demoralizing gameplay. I doubt WG will reconsider the cancerous addition of radar, though. It wants DDs dead, and fast.

 

I'm with you on this... looking back you can clearly see how DD roles have been forced to change. Intentionally or not, their roles have changed. 

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I still try to cap but, at the first sign of danger I abort. I find myself doing area denial more than anything now. I scout, try to provide cover for bb's, and spot for cruisers. As far as aggressively capping, i fear those days are gone.

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Update after update, WG has worked to neuter the lone wolf scout/cap DD. The result is DDs now have to stay with the fleet for safety. The fleet gets less early spotting as a result and DDs have to worry about clear lines of fire for their own TT and taking red TT meant for somebody else.

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Driving an IJN DD, I always move ahead to scout. But I don't cap unless I know the opposing gun boat DDs and radar CAs are not coming to the same cap. Capping is great. Dying for it is not.

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Driving an IJN DD, I always move ahead to scout. But I don't cap unless I know the opposing gun boat DDs and radar CAs are not coming to the same cap. Capping is great. Dying for it is not.

For me in a IJN DD, sure race to the cap at the start, but if the odds are not in my favor, it's time to scoot. Why do I want to lose half my health or get sunk in the first 5 minutes? No suicides! 

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the game is constantly evolving and changing.  Thats part of the "magic Formula" that keeps it fresh.. playable is as much a measure of perception as of mechanics and structure.

 

DD play has changes, and so has cruiser play and battlehips play and carrier play.. and the truth of the matter is most player get it wrong.. and not just a little bit wrong.  Furthermore there is no one single answer for every type of ship because the answer changes for each specific ship in a class and tier.  and the make up of the team/side your on in a match also changes and effects what you can and connot/should not do.  This has always been a part of the game.  And yes, I didn't figure this out over night at all!  When you add in my alt no one knows me account, my main account, my EU account, my RU account, and my test server account I've got easly over 6000 match under my belt and I'm still learning amazing new things.. someday I might even be scary good at everything and learn not to be so doggone over aggressive! (yea yea, in my dreams)

 

the place to see the highest level of play is not in ranked season play.. it's in supremacy league play right now, and in recorded and posted battles from same.   My own fleet has a policy.. in that if you have a video.. post it.  every video that gets posted deepens the amount of player knowledge.. it also increases the ability of player to toally screw it up if they do not view critically what they see correctly.. that mis interpretertation in very much the normal..  SO we're really not to worried about someone learning our "Secrets" because in the end it's not some secret super squirrel plan that's going to win the match.. it's how well players adjust and adapt on the fly and play well as a co-ordinated team..  Games are dynamic and player that fail grasp that critical fact are just going to do as well as they can.

 

Match are on;y 20 min..player that move so far away from the action that they are not shooting at anything for several min are useless to a team effort.

 

The DD role is exactly the same as the cruiser role.. escort the battleships, screen the battle ships and take advantage of the opportunities the battleships present.   If the Battleships don't move up to where they can constantly have their guns in play they are useless.  DD's should drop smoke around BB's and some cruisers...and move in front  or to one side of the smoke and provide spotting.  They should avoid using their guns and giving they're position away unless they are in a position to shoot and not be shot back at.  Cruiser should support the DD's and shoot at what ever shoots at them. help the DD's do their job and be ready to take over the DD's job.

 

The thing is, is there is no one single answer, or one single role.  Sometimes the BB's need to go scout because they're the only ship that will live long nuff to do so!

 

Random battle play is Chaos incarnate.. most player barley know how to move and shoot and use terrain to their advantage.  Far to many are so focused on avoiding damage that by the time they realize they better start killing some red teams ships it's all ready far to late.  Most player do not move to where they can place accurate fire into a zone of  the map and damage or kill anything that moves through.. they move to far out on a flank in big slow ships, or mask them selves behind island and do not realize that they are not contributing to the fight any longer and that everyone out their fighting and dieing is carrying their absent self.... and then they wonder why their team lost.. they're obviously a fail team you know?  They never see that the reason the team didn't do well is because they didn't contribute.

 

This might explain why most nations naval officer training programs last several years, and why the average age of ship captains in in the 40's to 50's...real world you don't want to hand command and responsibility for hundreds or even thousands of lives and billions of dollars of hardware to an inexperienced youth!  Bad thing happen!

 

I've been doing something very unusual lately in my play of world of warships and thats "stock" ships play... zero skill commanders, no upgrades, no flags, no cammo... No crutches!

My only "edge" has been my knowledge of the game and my experience as a player... I've managed to surprise myself on just how well I have done..  Go look my stats up for a couple ships...  The Tier IV premium Ishizuchi, and the ARP-Kongo...both of those ships I run with no commander that have no skills selected...ones got a like a 14 point commander right now, but nothing selected... and I run no upgrade modules.. the ishi does run it's special cammo but thats it.   My win rate in both ships is well over 50% and I play very agressivly and forward with both.. I can hang back and snipe but I don't.  Yea I get sunk a lot.. but the number of time where I've been the third or 4 ship sunk on my team but still places at the top of the score board on the winning team is pretty surprising..  I do it for the giggles.. I do it because its fun, and it's a challange.. and it's not seal clubbing.. MM with not allow me to go up against player that are total tyros and new to the game.  (that change was made over 6 months ago.. if your player rank 13, you will only be facing other player rank 13 players..)

 

It's much more difficult for DD's to perform their old roles of scout and cap in the higher tiers.. and I agree that it's to the point hat they really should not try.. in the higher tiers it just to dangerous.  You can still scout but you've got to do it from a distance. You've got to NOT attract attention.  You've got to not get those radar equipped ships to have a reason to light you up... unless you can a manage to get them to waste their radar.  In higher tier play your most important tool is a clock on your desktop to pay attention to shen they fire off radar, or hydro, and knowing how long it lasts.. Maybe noticing that your still spotted even though the consumable should have expired and realizing that the players commander has that extended consumable skill that extends the time on radar, and smoke, and hydro etc.  and informing your team mates that THAT player is running THAT skill and needs to be erased because they are that much more of a threat because of it.

 

WOrld of warships is not longer a simple game (It never really was!) but with new ship types now commander skill, new maps new special abilities it only going to get more so.  You the player are just going to have to learn how to counter all of this, and learn when you cant counter it.  Of course the best counter to a player and ship with special abilities is to sink them!

 

Dead ships are no longer a threat.. though they may have a scout fighter flying about for awhile over their sinking corpse.

 

Life is much tougher for DD players..adapt, adjust, over come, and triumph!

 

Warlord sends.

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The DD role is exactly the same as the cruiser role.. escort the battleships, screen the battle ships and take advantage of the opportunities the battleships present.   If the Battleships don't move up to where they can constantly have their guns in play they are useless.  DD's should drop smoke around BB's and some cruisers...and move in front  or to one side of the smoke and provide spotting.  They should avoid using their guns and giving they're position away unless they are in a position to shoot and not be shot back at.  Cruiser should support the DD's and shoot at what ever shoots at them. help the DD's do their job and be ready to take over the DD's job.

 

This works well for helping the team win, but won't get you very many XP when the battle is over. The BBs and CAs will rack up big scores while you spend most of your time where your weapons are ineffective.  I can see in ranked battles team play is paramount but in Random where you are trying to level up your captain, get XP,  etc.(and communication is generally poor) there needs to be more of a balance between support ship and serial killer.

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Ive noticed lately a lot of DDs refuse to scout or cap. Or the DD that Set up at c and decides a would be better especially by themselves. I play DDs a lot and die alot but I feel like if your going to play a dd you should try to fulfill your role and at least scout for the fleet. I know a lot of destroyers arent great at caps ( Detection etc.) But DDs are the front line and you leave your team in bind when you dont even try scout or cap and set half a match next to island waiting for someone to blunder into torp range. Kinda like the BBs that group behind islands and snipe and if the rest of the fleet does the dirty work they grow balls and actually move into open water and lumber into the cap that was taken 5 mins before. 

 

Scouting is one thing, capping is another.  Most DD with half-decent concealment can scout with relatively low risk, but capping as entirely different story altogether.  

 

Between [edited], unrealistic map design with obstacles everywhere and abilities that reveal your position with the push of a button, it has become many times more difficult to contest caps.  The first thing most DD players look at is the matchmaking to check for CV/radar/hydro/other DDs, then based on that they try to figure out where they should go and how risky it is to contest whatever cap they are close to.  It's insanity to just arbitrarily head into the closest cap simply because you're a DD and the game has this fantasy notion that your job is to smash your face into other ships at close range to fight over bases.

 

Considering the tendency for DD to become more influential in a match the longer it runs, sacrificing yourself to take unreasonable risks hurts your team more than than anything else.  Early caps are generally not very important anyways, unless your team decides to melt in the first 5 minutes and you bottom out on points - but you're probably going to lose in that case regardless.

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it has become lot more deadly to DD, but if you get support, you can still do well.  Still, I only have  russian DD to tier 10  XD.     but overall, WG wants shorter matches, so I am playing lot more Cruisers.   frankly, BB is too easy to win with.   lol. 

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many times tonight ive seen DDs go to the edges of the map as if theyre waiting for everyone else to catch up. As a BB main, cant say i blame them

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A lot of times a ship that caps must also be able to hold the cap until it's done and then be able to leave it safely, some where along the line in this process a fightfight ends up being inevitable 90% of the time in my experience and many DDs can't hold the cap like that. Now DDs are great in mutual support of capping allied ships.

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It can be tricky for Destroyer captains in domination. Especially higher tiers T7 onwards. 

 

You make one mistake in a DD and that can result in you being sunk. And if you die early trying to contest the cap then what good was that move. 

 

There's radar, planes, and Hydro to prevent you from moving into a cap safely. Smoke isn't a safe option anymore with all these things and makes for a torpedo magnet from other DDs. Its not easy for a DD to just go into any cap now a days, and in an IJN dd you will be sunk in any gun duel by any other nations DD.

 

High tier cruisers (except for USN) have very high velocities, flat arc, good dispersion and 8 inch guns dealing very high HE damage, a good salvo from a T7+ cruiser can half your health, break your guns, break torpedo launchers, set fires and force your damage control. Smoke wont help you when they have radar that gives just enough time to finish you or force you out from a cap. 

 

No, i'm not saying DDs are weak and Battleships and Cruisers are overpowered. My point is you cant always expect a DD to rush a cap or be aggressive, DDs work best mid-late game where there is less cruisers (Radar/Hydro) and other dds that can interfere. In my experience the team which has more DDs mid-late game tend to win due to their ability to hit objectives more effectively than the team whose DDs rushed early and sunk or lost most of their health pool and are forced to go into hiding.  

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