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DaJokr

Turtleback Armour Not Just German...?

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I thought turtle back armour was a German ship thing, but today I was looking at why I was having a hard time getting citadel hits on a few ships that I used to be able to just hammer in a brawl. Since when does kongou, fusou, and new mex to name a few, get turtle back armour? I thought Amagi was the only non German bb to get turtle back armour. 

 

Before you all call me a troll like the people in my last game did, look for yourself. I'm guessing this came in a recent patch, maybe I just missed it in patch notes. Would have been nice to know about the change though, I've wasted many waterline shots needlessly when I could have done much more damage aiming at the deck or stern/bow.

 

 

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I thought turtle back armour was a German ship thing, but today I was looking at why I was having a hard time getting citadel hits on a few ships that I used to be able to just hammer in a brawl. Since when does kongou, fusou, and new mex to name a few, get turtle back armour? I thought Amagi was the only non German bb to get turtle back armour. 

 

Before you all call me a troll like the people in my last game did, look for yourself. I'm guessing this came in a recent patch, maybe I just missed it in patch notes. Would have been nice to know about the change though, I've wasted many waterline shots needlessly when I could have done much more damage aiming at the deck or stern/bow.

 

 

Um, nope. If people are calling you a troll, they're probably just giving you benefit of doubt that you're being obtuse on purpose. 

 

I would have noted if patchnotes had made BB armor changes as that's a major change that would affect where I aim. There have been no major recent changes to armor schemes.

 

Small sample size. If you can usually citadel things and then you haven't been able to recently, you're either going through a bad RNG patch or you 're doing something differently. 

Edited by poeticmotion

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Nope. Quite a few ships have turtlebacks, like the KM CAs. AFAIK, NM has a turtle-back style armour layout. I think the same goes for Kongo. The point is, the turtleback armour scheme is not only used by the KM BBs. 

Edited by Aduial

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For example, Amagi at under 8 km can also be very hard to citadel--she also have a turtle back! It's not nearly as think as the German armor, and will not stop bb rounds from slightly longer distances like 9-15km, however, it is enough to induce auto-bounces inside the ship when she goes close and personal

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The original HMS Dreadnought had sloped citadel roofs. 

 

It's actually not that unique a thing. You have to remember during the time frame of the steel battleship and dreadnoughts the most basic form of protection a ship had was a protected deck. Aka sloped citadel roof. Armored cruisers built on top of this putting on belt armor much lack battleships.

 

I honestly don't know where the term 'turtleback' came up from. I suspect it's something coined out of the era of over grandizing German machinery much like the Tiger tank.  Anyway many ships had it, such as the New Mexico, Kongo, Nagota etc. The USN phased it out because as more and more long ranged 'plunging' fire became the doctrine it was actually a disadvantage then having a flat to the water line armored deck because a shell could come over the belt and hit the slope flat on.

 

The Royal Navy had phased it out by the Nelson class as well.

Edited by Cragger

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A lot of the IJN BB's have a turtle back of sorts from the Myogi to the Izumo.  

 

These turtle backs are not quite the same as the German turtle backs as they are thinner and aren't as sharply angled.  The IJN citadel sits above the waterline unlike the German BB's where it is below the waterline.  So at point blank ranges, if you can penetrate the belt and the angled citadel, you will get citadels, whereas with the Germans, once you penetrate the belt, you are likely to bounce off the top of the citadel.  The Gnies and up are basically immune to citadels from close ranges with shells entering at flat angles.  Also with the German turtleback, in order to penetrate at close ranges, you have to hit the water, go through armor, travel through the dead space, and penetrate a little bit more armor.  The fact that your shell hits the water and armor means that is likely to be travelling too slow to reach the citadel or have enough remaining penetration.  

 

The term turtleback is definitely misleading.  Most BB's have turtlebacks.  Is it the "German" turtleback?  No, but do these ships have a turtleback, yes.

 

[edit] Just loaded the game and saw that most of the IJN citadels are actually at the water line.  It makes you wonder why the IJN BB's sit in the back when sitting farther back actually increases their chances of being cit.

Edited by AhosChaos

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The phrase, Turtleback is actually a British Phrase, and was started sometime in the late 19th century by dockworkers and personnel since the armored deck would be riveted in before the top deck, making the ship look like a turtle on the slip with the rigging holding it up from the dock/slip walls.

 

To answer the OP, all British, Japanese, German, French, and Italian designs used them up until the 1920s. The US however, stopped using them, but kept them in a splinter deck fashion at least up until the New Mexico. So only the Nevada, Pennsylvania, and New Mexico classes did this, by the Tennessee class into the Colorado class, they discontinued the usage of a sloped splinter deck. This was due to the Post Jutland damage reports which they found that such a thin splinter deck did little to nothing to stop incoming shells, so opted to remove such and to increase the spacing for anti-torpedo protection near the belt by expanding the gap upward directly behind the main belt.

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The germans definitely had the better designs with regards to sloping armor.

 

Some battleships had their armor slope outwards, which stopped shells coming in flat, but allowed plunging shells to bypass it completely.

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A lot of BBs have turtleback armor in the strictest sense of the word, but the angles of the German turtleback are the only ones that offer tangible benefits.  Shells will hit the slope of German turtlebacks at autobounce angles, and thus you get a normal pen instead of a citadel; this isn't the case with the turtlebacks of any other nations' BBs.  Even so, the internal armor does offer additional armor to help stop shells.

Edited by TenguBlade

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Fair enough. I thought when they originally launched the patch to look at armour that most of the BBs excluding a couple of the higher tier ijn had a standard deck and citadel. At least that's what I remember from the first time I looked at it. Oh well, I guess I was wrong. Apologies folks.

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Most of the IJN BBs above and including the Fuso have some form of turtleback armor, though it's more vertical and doesn't have the horizontal/angled coverage that the German layout does. The Dunkerque actually has a turtleback very similar to the Germans as well, thinner but keeps her from getting citadeled at anything other than perfect broadside, and makes her borderline immune to bow pens.

 

 

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