poeticmotion

RPF/Radio Location is not OP. It's a potato skill. But it's still a bad idea for the meta.

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RPF (or, as it's now called, Radio Location) is not OP. It's not something that DDs should be afraid of, or any other ship. But I still think it's a terrible idea given the current game meta, not for what the skill can do, but for the effects the skill will have on an already camptastic high-tier meta. 

 

I played the test server extensively and tested out skills and builds with various ship lines, and as I suspected, the RPF skill is not that big a deal for smart players. I'm a DD main, and I'm fine with facing it. Why? Opportunity cost. If someone spends 4 points on RPF, that's 4 points they can't spend elsewhere, weakening their build. Good players have solid instincts for knowing where ships are, where they'll appear, the flow of the game. RPF is useless to those players, and for potatoes, they won't be able to make good use of it and they'll be giving up other valuable skills.

 

For example, with German BBs...if you take RPF, it's going to be a suboptimal build. My German BBs will use a secondary build (for a 19pt capt): Preventive Maintenance, Jack of All Trades, Expert Marksman or high alert (haven't decided yet), Super (for extra charge of heal and hydro), BFT, AFT, and Manual Secondaries. 19 points. You can't get RPF without giving up a needed skill for a secondary build (imo). It's even worse for cruisers and DDs; I've theorycrafted builds for most of my ships and there's no way that RPF doesn't block you from getting a more useful skill, because 4 points. 

So, why do I think RPF is a mistake and should not be included? Because potatoes. 

The NA server is campy AF. And it's hard enough to get DDs to go cap. Hell, part of the reason I play mostly DD is because it's so obnoxious to lose games when DDs won't cap and play the objective.  So now, you've got this skill that every potato on the server thinks is OP, and every potato DD driver thinks will result in being permaspotted. Which means getting DDs to push up, cap, and spot will become even harder. Getting cruisers to play aggressive will become even harder. People will camp harder. The high-tier meta is already damn near unplayable, and now you're adding a skill which will make everyone BUT battleships afraid to push up...and that might be worth it if most BBs would play more aggressively as a result, but let's be honest, they won't. So everyone will camp in back and t10 will be even more miserable.

 

 RPF is not a skill that people should be afraid of, but they are. As a DD main, radar did not ruin my game. I adapted. RPF will not ruin my game. I will adapt. But there are so many DDs who freak out about radar and won't push or cap or scout (you'd think they'd just stop playing DD if they're afraid to go do DD stuff, but that makes too much sense.) I see RPF as being just like radar; it will create more lopsided steamrolls when you have DDs on one side that are smart and push, and DDs on the other side that are like "OMGWTFBBQ THEY HAVE RPF I CAN'T GO CAP BECAUSE THEY'LL KNOW EXACTLY WHERE I AM OMGPANIC!" Those are the games that make me just stop playing for a day or two or three because it's so frustrating. Close, hard fought losses are part of the game. I can get enjoyment out of a loss, if it was a good game.  But when I go on a streak and lose t10 game after t10 game where I'm performing at or above server avg level but my teams are terrified to push, that makes the game not fun anymore. Even when it works against the other side (because I acknowledge this will go both ways, it's just extra frustrating when it happens to my team several times in row,) it's still frustrating, because landslide games aren't as fun as tough, hard-fought, intelligently played matches.  And I think RPF is going to exacerbate this problem greatly, not because the skill is OP, but because potatoes will overreact to it. 

TL;DR: We need to rethink RPF. I am disappointed to see that it is being added to the game. If, overall, NA server players were less whiny about change, smarter about learning the actual effects of skills, and less scared of getting their paint scratched, I'd be totally OK with RPF, because I can adapt to it and it weakens my opponents that choose it. But I am very concerned about how many 'bad losses' we'll see because DDs overreact to the existence of RPF and camp instead of capping and/or spotting. 

 

Edit to add this note because some people are missing a major point here: I am not arguing that it can come in handy in some scenarios. It's a potato skill because of the opportunity cost, and the fact that taking it prevents you from using those 4 points on other skills. If it was a 1 or 2 point skill, it'd be silly NOT to take it. I'm glad it's a 4-point skill, because it would be unbalanced if someone could have RPF along with all the other useful skills they want. 

 

Edited by poeticmotion

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I agree with this post for the most part. It will change things a little, but it won't make DDs unplayable. Use it to your advantage to throw off the enemy, make them believe there is a threat to them when you're really engaging someone else. 

 

I know I won't be using this skill. I can find destroyers just fine on my own using that whole "brain" thing. This will change very little.


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Still not gonna stop me from putting it in my Imperator Nikolai. :)

 

Still not going to stop me from waiting until you're engaged on opposite side and putting six torps into your flank with my Clemson. :D 

 

If anything, RPF is even less good at lower tiers because the maps are smaller. But in fairness, since manual secondaries skill isn't that good for t6 and below BBs, and since the smaller and more congested/island-infested maps at low to mid-low tiers provide more ambush opportunities, t6 and below BBs are about the only ships you could possibly justify using RPF with if you're a good player, imo. I wouldn't use it, but I can see where it is at least not as bad a choice as it is on most other ships. 


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I just need a way of isolating the player who is using Radio Location so I can report the scrub for "plays poorly". 

:trollface:


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Still not going to stop me from waiting until you're engaged on opposite side and putting six torps into your flank with my Clemson. :D 

 

If anything, RPF is even less good at lower tiers because the maps are smaller. But in fairness, since manual secondaries skill isn't that good for t6 and below BBs, and since the smaller and more congested/island-infested maps at low to mid-low tiers provide more ambush opportunities, t6 and below BBs are about the only ships you could possibly justify using RPF with if you're a good player, imo. I wouldn't use it, but I can see where it is at least not as bad a choice as it is on most other ships. 

 

I mean AFT hardly extends the range of my already bad secondaries, and no other T4 skill is worth using in IN, so why not use a stupid and unhealthy skill to magically know where stealthed enemies are?

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I mean AFT hardly extends the range of my already bad secondaries, and no other T4 skill is worth using in IN, so why not use a stupid and unhealthy skill to magically know where stealthed enemies are?

 

Fair. For some reason I thought Nikolai's secondaries were decent (well, decent for its tier) Edited by poeticmotion

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Edited...

 

I wont cap anymore until the game time is 14 min left...

 

Also avoid all islands by 9 km because cruisers.

 

I also dont spot for my team because they wont target things that threaten me......

 

 

 

 

Edited by Zhadum101

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The big impact of this fake skill will be endgame, when only one ship on one team remains, and that ship is automatically direction spotted.

Someone explain to me how one ship, all by itself, can be spotted by "radio location"; when does it use the radio?

"Skill" is pure nonsense, and needs to be removed.


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I just need a way of isolating the player who is using Radio Location so I can report the scrub for "plays poorly". 

:trollface:

 

No need to triangulate, just report me if you see me in game.  As a hint, this skill isn't useful just for hunting down DD's.  It's also a proverbial canary in a coal mine when running toward an empty looking cap.  

 

Can't tell you how many games I've had where I headed toward an empty stretch of water only to get ambushed by half their team.

Edited by Misniso

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You're wrong about it being a potato skill,  that's kind of like calling wallhacks in Counterstrike back in the day a potato hack.  it gives you information that you have no other way of getting.  It won't be an autopick on all ships, but lets face it no skill is.

 

It's absolutely fantastic for a Khabarovsk, there is no way for a Khab to get detection down to the point it can spot another DD at roughly the same time and barring lots of obstructions to use it can be a pain to try to find a speed boosting Shima running for it's life.  Plus, it's dangerous since if you guess he broke right and he broke left, you're eating a massive wall of skill with no chance to dodge.  Except if you have RPF, then you just keep that little cone straight ahead and now he has no chance to hit with torps, no way to outrun you, and absolutely no way to outfight you.

 

Since I love the Khab it's a great skill for me, but since I enjoy a balanced game I don't want RPF to be anywhere near it.  You could replace Shima with Gearing in the above and the result is the same, though it will involve taking more damage in the killing.  

 

The end result will be, any game with a Khab will have every other DD hanging back with their CA for protection.  They're going to be hanging back with their BBs for protection or out of LoS because of the enemy BBs.  We all know how well it works to wait for a BB driver to get aggressive.

 

It's a bad skill for the game, just bad.


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don't like it then don't use it

 

Congrats on missing the entire point of the post! You're the very type of person that inspires my pessimistic view of how bad the camping might be after this skill is implemented. 

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Hi, good dd player here. I don't know where enemy dd players are all the time and this skill will be highly useful for that both early game and late. It's not for potatoes only.


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If you try using RPF outside of what the discerption on the skill tree says it does you'll back pedal on your opinion that its a potato skill.

 

Edited by Vekta408

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If you try using RPF outside of what the discerption on the skill tree says it does you'll back pedal on your opinion that its a potato skill.

 

 

I tested it extensively on the test server, as stated. It's a potato skill in 99% of situations. Most of the time, I already have a pretty good idea of what's going on around me. Only time I would ever really miss this skill is in a late game 1v1 fight where I needed to find and kill the opposing ship, and the opportunity cost is too high in other situations. 

 

I am not arguing that it can come in handy in some scenarios. It's a potato skill because of the opportunity cost. If it was a 1 or 2 point skill, it'd be silly NOT to take it. 

 


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I tested it extensively on the test server, as stated. It's a potato skill in 99% of situations. Most of the time, I already have a pretty good idea of what's going on around me. Only time I would ever really miss this skill is in a late game 1v1 fight where I needed to find and kill the opposing ship, and the opportunity cost is too high in other situations. 

 

I am not arguing that it can come in handy in some scenarios. It's a potato skill because of the opportunity cost. If it was a 1 or 2 point skill, it'd be silly NOT to take it. 

 

 

Then you didn't do much with it. The skill is not just about your own situational awareness. You had the power to tell your team exactly where ship groups were coming from. You had the ability to accurately track and tell CV where they could find a ship to bomb and you had the tools to prevent the other team from having a 1v1 situation as long as you did your part with RPF. You completely missed the potential of what you could have done with this skill and failed to utilize it to your advantage.

Edited by Vekta408

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Then you didn't do much with it. The skill is not just about your own situational awareness. You had the power to tell your team exactly where ship groups were coming from. You had the ability to accurately track and tell CV where they could find a ship to bomb and you had the tools to prevent the other team from having a 1v1 situation as long as you did your part with RPF. You completely missed the potential of what you could have done with this skill and failed to utilize it to your advantage.

 

And how often do people communicate effectively in randoms? I already tell my team where ships or ship groups are coming from and it's ignored most of the time. 

 

And you're missing the point about opportunity cost. There is no way to build a capt with RPF without giving up skills that are more beneficial to you. Now, in clan battles, the meta may be different as communication will be much more important, and RPF will likely be a much more useful skill there. Being on TeamSpeak and saying "hey, my RPF shows a ship North-northwest from me" is useful. But in random battles, with the opportunity cost of the skill, I stand by what I said. "tools to prevent the other team..." um, no, because that assumes that people will do anything with the info you give them in random battles. 

Edited by poeticmotion

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I mean AFT hardly extends the range of my already bad secondaries, and no other T4 skill is worth using in IN, so why not use a stupid and unhealthy skill to magically know where stealthed enemies are?

 

that is something the FINE player base is overlooking. On a lot of ships like cruisers AFT doesn't come into play very often due to low CV counts. let's be honest, most people run hydro over DF so losing AFT will hardly change things a lot. Theres the 4 RPF points freed up which assures everyone using it that they will have a vastly better chance of not getting ambush torped especially late game for the win/loss. 

 

Who wouldn't severely consider a skill that actually will change the win loss column?

 

I would argue as well that CE is much over emphasized as a cruiser skill. Most cruiser players keep the guns hot enough that they will rarely drop off detect in a situation where physical cover is not in play and stealth firing cruisers are even rarer than CVs. I can count on both hands in my 7500 matchs the times when a stealth firing cruiser effected the game for me. They are annoying yes but every match there are numerous instances where an unknown postioned DD affect my play.

 

If we think in terms of what is in play most often that affects match outcomes like DDs vs what we hedge on, what if's like CV strikes, the skills we could pick would be plenty different.


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that is something the FINE player base is overlooking. On a lot of ships like cruisers AFT doesn't come into play very often due to low CV counts. let's be honest, most people run hydro over DF so losing AFT will hardly change things a lot. Theres the 4 RPF points freed up which assures everyone using it that they will have a vastly better chance of not getting ambush torped especially late game for the win/loss. 

 

Who wouldn't severely consider a skill that actually will change the win loss column?

 

I would argue as well that CE is much over emphasized as a cruiser skill. Most cruiser players keep the guns hot enough that they will rarely drop off detect in a situation where physical cover is not in play and stealth firing cruisers are even rarer than CVs. I can count on both hands in my 7500 matchs the times when a stealth firing cruiser effected the game for me. They are annoying yes but every match there are numerous instances where an unknown postioned DD affect my play.

 

If we think in terms of what is in play most often that affects match outcomes like DDs vs what we hedge on, what if's like CV strikes, the skills we could pick would be plenty different.

 

Stealth is life for most cruisers. I run CE religiously on cruisers because with proper positioning and awareness of who is where, you can fire, break contact, and get stealth back. 

 

Also, after a couple thousand battles, one should have a pretty good idea of where DDs are going to go and what they're likely to do. Plus having hydro and radar (where applicable) Especially for radar cruisers, RPF is a waste. 


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Stealth is life for most cruisers. I run CE religiously on cruisers because with proper positioning and awareness of who is where, you can fire, break contact, and get stealth back. 

 

Also, after a couple thousand battles, one should have a pretty good idea of where DDs are going to go and what they're likely to do. Plus having hydro and radar (where applicable) Especially for radar cruisers, RPF is a waste. 

 

Not really, it fills in the gaps during those times when they're cooling down.  Especially because, last I checked, the premium consumables were getting additional cooling down time.  You can also delay the use of hydro or radar because you have a general idea of where the enemy ship is and what it's doing.  That means, once you get closer, you can keep the destroyer from escaping out of detection range.

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I am taking rdf and pt for many of my cruisers and DDs.   having good intelligence about enemy formation is very important for both classes.  i doubt I will take it for  BBs  even though I am pretty aggressive and tend to lead from front even in BB.   :D

 


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It's absolutely fantastic for a Khabarovsk, there is no way for a Khab to get detection down to the point it can spot another DD at roughly the same time and barring lots of obstructions to use it can be a pain to try to find a speed boosting Shima running for it's life.  Plus, it's dangerous since if you guess he broke right and he broke left, you're eating a massive wall of skill with no chance to dodge.  Except if you have RPF, then you just keep that little cone straight ahead and now he has no chance to hit with torps, no way to outrun you, and absolutely no way to outfight you.

 

Hmmm, a perk that will buff RU vehicles. Nope! No bias there.

 

Also, after a couple thousand battles, one should have a pretty good idea of where DDs are going to go and what they're likely to do.

 

Depending on the number dd's in a match, you just might guess wrong as to where they will go.

 

I've seen plenty of matches with 3 dd's per side, and all 3 of the red team went to the same cap while our team had 1 at each, or 2 at one and one to another.

 

In random's there is no 'pretty good idea of where DDs are going to go and what they're likely to do.'

 

Good luck and fair seas.


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And how often do people communicate effectively in randoms? I already tell my team where ships or ship groups are coming from and it's ignored most of the time. 

 

And you're missing the point about opportunity cost. There is no way to build a capt with RPF without giving up skills that are more beneficial to you. Now, in clan battles, the meta may be different as communication will be much more important, and RPF will likely be a much more useful skill there. Being on TeamSpeak and saying "hey, my RPF shows a ship North-northwest from me" is useful. But in random battles, with the opportunity cost of the skill, I stand by what I said. "tools to prevent the other team..." um, no, because that assumes that people will do anything with the info you give them in random battles. 

 

Oh?

 

Lets say I'm a Russian DD.  I have AFT already.  My next choices for a 4 point skill are SE or CE.

 

SE is decent for having 4k extra health for slugging it out with USN DDs or taking an extra hit or two from a CA or BB.  CE is mildly useful for getting closer to an enemy DD before you get spotted, but you're still getting spotted a huge distance before the enemy DD is, with CE I would be running a 8.9ish km detection range, which is good for a cruiser but terrible for a DD.  

 

On the other hand you have RPF.  If an enemy DD is spotting me I will know right where they are.  I can either break contact or hunt them down.  That's far more valuable than either the either health or slightly better stealth.

 

It would be stupid to take as a first 4 point skill over AFT, but it's great to replace either DE or SE in a 3x4 build.


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And how often do people communicate effectively in randoms? I already tell my team where ships or ship groups are coming from and it's ignored most of the time. 

 

And you're missing the point about opportunity cost. There is no way to build a capt with RPF without giving up skills that are more beneficial to you. Now, in clan battles, the meta may be different as communication will be much more important, and RPF will likely be a much more useful skill there. Being on TeamSpeak and saying "hey, my RPF shows a ship North-northwest from me" is useful. But in random battles, with the opportunity cost of the skill, I stand by what I said. "tools to prevent the other team..." um, no, because that assumes that people will do anything with the info you give them in random battles. 

 

​Telling randoms were a ship is going to be is like ringing a dinner bell. I don't know what PTS you were playing on but the one I was playing on they loved the free damage I provided them with RPF tracking way before situational awareness kicked in. *pings mini map* ship will appear here...*ship appears* oh look at all the focus fire. It's like they were ready for a ship to appear there or something. Magical RPF had nothing to do with it....nah... :P Edited by Vekta408

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