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pikohan

Grinding XP in PvP vs PvE

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Is this a troll post? Maybe, this is a little bit hypothetical, but I thought about it a bit, and I wanted to share my thoughts.

 

Ever since we started getting rewards (missions, crates, tasks, etc) that required grinding XP in PvP or PvE, I had the suspicion that there could be conditions where it would be faster to grind said XP in PvE fights due to the high winrates and low fight durations. Aside from things you usually have to buy (Premium time, Premium ships, Premium camos) the biggest XP booster the game gives is 1) winning and 2) daily win bonuses. The nature of PvE means that you can take advantage of these bonuses in almost every game, but is it enough to compensate for the lower base rewards?

 

So to do this comparison I want to first figure out my average base XP without the winrate multiplier. I will call this B'. Most people know that WoWS rewards XP for tactical actions such as dealing damage or capturing points, and on top of that the winning team gets a 1.5x boost. This is what the game considers base XP for missions, etc. I will call the average B.

 

 

Qu7xvp5.jpg

 

To find B', I can take my B and average winrate (W) and use the following formula:

 

B' * (1 + 0.5 * W) = B

 

So using my B and W from warships.today (this would have to be done differently if I use a considerable amount of Premium time - I would have to adjust for it because the premium multiplier, for whatever bizarre reason, is factored into the average XP figure):

 

 

iT57k07.jpg

 

B' * (1 + 0.5 * 0.5217) = 861 so my PvP B' is 683.

 

 

 otar4ai.jpg

 

B' * (1 + 0.5 * 0.9618) = 358 so my PvE B' is 242.

 

This is where the calculation is a bit theoretical: B' is basically a measure of tactical play that the game deems rewarding. Saying B scales with winrate and B' is a constant assumes that I play just as well personally on wins and losses, which may or may not be true. But I'm sure everyone has had those potato victories and carry losses, so that assumption should be in the realm of believable. Anyway, the plot of B vs W:

 

 

 3nIm9Pn.jpg

 

I've marked the spots on the curve where my B is on both curves. You can also see that the top of the PvE curve doesn't even get close to the bottom of the PvP curve. Even if I lost every PvP game I played and won every PvE game I played, I would never be getting more XP per game in PvE than in PvP

 

But this is where the time component comes in, because I don't care about XP per game, I care about XP per unit time. Unfortunately, average time spent per battle is not a recorded stat, so I've had to gather data with admittedly a small sample size (time is in seconds):

 

 

NvThqLA.jpg

 

So in PvP over seven games, I spent an average of 895 seconds per game, and in PvE over ten games I spent an average of 365 seconds per game. Dividing XP per game by average time per game (T) adjusts the charts a bit:

 

 

 

 PJcbVZf.jpg

 

I've once again marked where I actually am on these curves. Suddenly you can see that I'm making 0.98 XP/s in PvE at a winrate of 96% compared to 0.96 XP/s in PvP at a winrate of 52%. This is only a small difference, but wait! There is one more multiplier to consider, and that is the daily win bonus. Average modified XP (MB) per second can be calculated using:

 

(B' * (1 + * 0.5  * W) * (1 + 0.5 * W)) / T = MB


So if I only play ships that still have the daily win bonus, the curves look like this:

 

 

 Ug8NO7K.jpg

 

With the daily win bonuses, PvE XP per second is 1.45 at a winrate of 96% and PvP XP per second is only 1.21 at a winrate of 52%. With the given B' and T, I would need to win something like 75% in PvP before I was making as much XP per second!

 

So my takeaways:

  • Without daily win bonuses, XP/s scales linearly with winrate, with daily bonuses, XP/s scales exponentially, and that's where you could take advantage of the near 100% winrates in PvE.
  • Regardless of how accurate/representative my numbers are, you can see that for some combinations of B', T, and W playing PvE can give more XP per unit time than PvP, if played efficienctly.
  • XP rewards in PvE probably should not be buffed, but I won't say anything about credits. 
  • If you are a really good player, you will probably never make more XP/s in PvE.
  • Winrates in PvP are often streaky, so even if your XP/s in PvE is slightly lower than in PvP, the consistency may be valuable. And maybe reduced frustration.

 

Also see this post:

 

Edited by pikohan
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Great info +1! I grind PvE almost exclusively HOWEVER with the Santa's Convoy deadline approaching, I went into PvP for faster gains. I don't know exactly what my stats are but am guessing 90% in PvE and probably 50%ish in PvP. I found that a loss in PvP gave me about the same exp as a win in PvE. A win in PvP where I did a small amount of damage was just super gigantic though and was able to grind out the mission fairly quickly, get stupid amounts of credits, and managed to level several captains. Your exploration of the subject has just given me evidence of what I kind of figured out a while back. I can get 3 or 4 games done PvE in about the same time it takes to play one PvP game and overall make about the same exp. I always try and play the first win bonuses with camo and flags to really get the numbers up. Playing with Premium time coupled with first win/camo/flags just makes life nice. I think your evaluation is spot on, well done and well said.

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Exactly. When some people ask for bigger rewards in PvE, they fail to remember and consider that the WR is nearly 100%in Co-Op, and games usually take a third of the time they take on PvP (Random Battles).

 

That goes for XP. A case could be made for a boost in credit rewards for Co-Op, however.

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I have not look into the matter too closely and didn't read thoroughly (sorry!) but I have my rough estimated.

I beleive I spend 7 minutes in co-op and 15 in pvp (basically half). Which is quite close to your number. My xp for pvp is 150% of co-op. So in my case, pvp gain higher.

But then again I did not timed myself properly, just estimate.

 

A point to consider is camo and flags are use per game. Mean pvp yield more return per "money" spend.

 

 

If you equally conformable in both mode. I say it's not too bad to play pve even when the goal is exp.

An option is to play pvp till you spend first win of the day, then move to co-op. To maximize xp.

Edited by Hero_of_Zero

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A point to consider is camo and flags are use per game. Mean pvp yield more return per "money" spend.

 

This is a good point, and I agree. Premium time is purchased by day, so it will affect PvP and PvE the same with respect to these calculations. You won't be wasting it one way or the other.

 

Premium camos, though, are indeed spent on a per-game basis, and as such you want to maximize the multiplied XP gained with each camo use. I for one never use camo or premium consumables or flags in PvE.

 

An option is to play pvp till you spend first win of the day, then move to co-op. To maximize xp.

 

As per the final calculation, I don't think this is true unless you are a really good player, in which case you should always play PvP anyway. Maybe if you want to maximize the amount of XP multiplied by the daily win bonus, but I'm not sure what situations would warrant that optimization.

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Interesting analysis. Well done. I play a mix of PvP and PvE. This info is beneficial and matches my experience.

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I have had roughly 1/3 to 1/2 of my PvE games go just about as long as PvP.  I certainly am not experiencing an average of 1/3 the game time in PvE as opposed to PvP.

 

I needed somewhere around 600-700 xp to finish a task.  I jumped in PvE for a quick game.  The game went well over 10 minutes, and I ended up 3 or 4 xp short of what I needed.  That was a bit frustrating.

 

With a win I commonly hit 1200-2000 base xp in PvP.  Add bonuses and I can earn 6000-9000+ xp.  Add in the credit earnings of 200k+ credits.  For me, PvP is just far more profitable and yields much more xp.

 

I certainly don't mind a game in PvE when the only requirement is to "play a game", or "play a game with x ship".  While PvP is for me much more profitable and much more engaging, I really enjoy a shoot-em-up, easy PvE game now and then.  Some torp attacks I make in PvE would be utter suicide in PvP.  :D

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DAMIT,,,,,  My friend makes fun of my CooP habit but your analysis is spot on. My 103,000,000+ silver pool helps to verify your findings. Only a unicums WR in PVP puts a dent in your theory. Quickly and quietly delete this thread please before your secret gets out. +1 for you.

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Your time averages could be more meaningful if you played the same ships in each PvP and PvE.  This helps to remove the ship survival variable, and account for your skill levels.  The PvE appear to be mostly cruisers and the PvP seem to be mostly BB.  Depending on your aggression level of play this could really change the results.  

Edited by surratus
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Another factor is daily win bonuses.  To maximize this offset you would have to continue switching ships after each win.  An experienced player with a stocked port can do this easily, a less experienced player...not so much.

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Great post OP, thank you for the analysis.

 

An observation about the condition of daily bonuses, something to have into account is you only have 1 daily bonus per ship. Your amount of iterations per ship is limited to one, lets say you are grinding 5 ships, in PvE you'll play your 5 matches faster, lets round up in about half an hour. In PvP the same 5 victories could take you well over an hour, yes you take a lot more of time per day, but you will be finishing the grind in a lot less of days. So, if you only play for a victory a day, it is a lot faster in PvP than in PvE in terms of days.

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But this is where the time component comes in, because I don't care about XP per game, I care about XP per unit time. Unfortunately, average time spent per battle is not a recorded stat, so I've had to gather data with admittedly a small sample size (time is in seconds):

 

Spoiler
<data chart here>

 

So in PvP over seven games, I spent an average of 895 seconds per game, and in PvE over ten games I spent an average of 365 seconds per game. Dividing XP per game by average time per game (T) adjusts the charts a bit:

 

The small sample size isn't the issue here. Why are the ships you used in PVP different than the ships you used in PVE? (battleships+1 destroyer vs cruisers etc) 

 

Then you go on to sample 7 pvp games, and then 10 pve games. why would the sample sizes be different?

 

I have a lot of trouble with conclusions drawn from this data, its a bit too haphazard for me. There's just too much left to a lot of chance.

 

 With the daily win bonuses, PvE XP per second is 1.45 at a winrate of 96% and PvP XP per secnd is only 1.21 at a winrate of 52%. With the given B' and T, I would need to win something like 75% in PvP before I was making as much XP per second!

 

With respect to the above, I note that this conclusion is based off the ship's daily win bonus. So all of this data only applies to the first battle of the day for that particular ship as well, so I'm not sure what sort of gravity this has for pve vs pvp xp rates, unless you only ever play one battle per day per ship, and if you're playing *all* of your ships in port as well.

 

I feel a better conclusion drawn from this would be 'to make the most of your daily bonus with an assured win rate, one can engage in pve battles to achieve a reasonable xp over time'

 

I can't agree or disagree that coop has more, as I've not made any measurements myself.

 

Not trying to give you a hard time here, but looking at the numbers, I'm not there with you.

Edited by SinisterSe7en
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Co-Op, and games usually take a third of the time they take on PvP (Random Battles).

 

 

^^^This^^^

 

Which is why it's better to grind some task in Co-op.  Did this for Missions 5, 6, and 7 in Santa Convoys.  Co-op and the niche tasks made a big difference in speeding through those missions.

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Regarding the small sample sizes: yes, I think the sample sizes should be larger, and I will see if I can amend the data and/or see how much it changes after I have time to play more.

 

Regarding the variety of ships played in each battle type: I'm a little torn on this, on one end I do feel like it is the most rigorous to test the same ships in PvP and PvE, but in my personal experience I find that I play certain ships better/faster in PvP than PvE, so it's a bit of a gut-based optimization for using the ships I'm most proficient at (and of course, this is what you should be doing to optimize XP gain, but again, less scientific). I think in the end it doesn't matter that much, because each individual will have a certain selection of ships played in PvE and PvP (and they may be same or not), and their numbers will reflect that, and the calculations will also reflect that.

 

Regarding the number of daily wins: yes, this calculation does assume that you are only playing a ship until you get the daily win. That's one of the main reasons why PvE may be able to grind XP faster, because you can leverage all of our daily win bonuses very quickly. If you say are trying to grind XP for a particular ship, only the second calculation really applies, in which case the delta between PvP and PvE XP/s is probably much closer. 

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It's true for PvE at low tiers, but it changes higher tier you get.

By T6, it's more rewarding to play PvP as per my own findings.

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I disagree.  Experience gain in PvE is gimped hard compared to PvP, at least at tiers 5+.  Maybe it's the same for lower tiers too but then a little xp goes a long way there. 

 

Take the first game from this video:

 

He wins a PvE battle with the Scharnhorst.  50K damage dealt, no kills.  Survived.  Game lasts 7minutes 30 seconds.

 

He earns 306 base xp. 

For winning. 

And he's in the top 3 xp earners for his team.

 

Let me tell you right now.... that sucks.  I mean, he's using Halloween camo (+100%xp) and a bunch of flags, so he wants xp.  But playing PvE is giving him not a lot of it.  I tried a few games in my Scharn to compare and in every match that we won, even the lowest player on my team got 600xp minimum. One of them was in an Omaha with zero kills and I'm guessing he didn't do 50K damage.  In fairness, if you prefer playing PvE, I have no problem with that; I really like that it's an option.  But to say that PvE xp gain compares even remotely to PvP is just untrue.  I'm guessing it's -50% like the credit earning.

Edited by Salinity

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Another advantage of coop is that it doesn't tire you out.  3 intense PvP games can leave your heart thumping hard, and its probably a healthy idea to take a break and relax for a while.  That's basically how games can potentially damage your cardio.  Coop games with only a moderate level of excitement means you can probably carry on without a break longer, although inevitably its always healthy to take a break once in a while.

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OP, this holds true till you probably run into tier 9. After that it falls way off because not as many people get to those tiers.

 

But for tiers 5 and 6, probably the fastest way to grind out a couple of lines to get to tier 7. Probably going to do that for the few lines I haven't gotten up to tier 7.

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Yeah but the Coop earnings are a joke for the numbers you put up.....

 

PVE: 168,000 dmg, 4 kills and without a 50% Credit camo on my Alabama, it woulda been like a 20k net gain cuz lol PVE earnings have to suck cuz we dont wanna buttblast the PVPers.....

 

XP in PVE sucks [edited], you only get more then 400-500 if you run absolutely every bonus you can scrounge up in this game, then you might break 1000 if you have an otherwise amazing game.

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It's an interesting thread and I appreciate the OP's time and efforts. However, in real application the simple bottom line is PVP, on the whole, drastically out rewards PVE. You could have a 0% WR in PVP, and thus lose every single game you play (but play well/average just not win), and out earn a 100% WR in Co-op where you play equally as well or even at Unicum levels. 

I actually showed the following 4 screen shot examples in another similar thread not long back. 2 Bayern PVP losses where I did average numbers vs 2 T10 Co-op games (Montana & Yamato) where I did high damage and carried games. The Bayern losses just had premium time and perma camo while the T10 games had premium time, perma camo, and lots of flags. The T10 Co-op excellent wins barely beat out the T6 PVP average losses. So add in average games and losses in Co-op and PVP will always out earn Co-op even if you always lose and play average. AS IT SHOULD.

Note - FWIW I placed 1st on team in all examples below

G2qmZfx.jpg

1Abr2Rs.jpg

hcPgRZD.jpg

dpd0eNq.jpg

As far as time goes. Yes, you can squeeze in more Co-op games p/ hour on the whole BUT you won't get the games like I post of the 2 T10's done in 5-7 minutes each ( was 25 minutes + for them combined). Those fast games earn you FAR less. The good games like those 2 T10 games take far longer. It tales as long for some of those as it does Random matches (which btw can end in 5 minutes too - been there done it).

A low end below average game in those 2 T10 BB's in a Co-op win with the various reward boosters (camo, premium, flags), that happen too often in a really short 5 min +/- game, would be like this Yamato one which is a LOT less than the Bayern games above and was just over 6 minutes in length. Wasn't enough time to do much..

SNXCmAB.jpg

To put it even more into perspective here are a couple pretty average (ie; normal) Co-op wins for me in Bayern to compare to those average Bayern game losses in PVP I posted above. These would be just perma camo and premium time like the PVP game losses above. No flags although the daily 1st win bonus and/or some event XP modifier was obviously in play on one which it was not in the PVP losses... 

RVLNbNz.jpg

nxbDVql.jpg

So, in the 2 PVP losses where I was 1st on team that are shown (near top) using Bayern w/ premium account, perma camo, and no reward boosting flags, that took me a combined 22+ minutes to play (ironically both were just a hair over 11 minutes each), I earned a total of...

  • 437,260 Credits
  • 2717 XP
  • 137 Free XP

Now, in the 2 Co-op wins shown right above where I was 1st on team using Bayern w/ premium account, perma camo, and no reward boosting flags that one had some type of reward boost (1st win of day or an event?) that took me a combined 24+ minutes to play, I earned a total of...

  • 212,531 Credits
  • 2935 XP
  • 148 Free XP

So it actually took 2 minutes MORE in Co-op to earn less in 2 Bayern wins vs the 2 Bayern PVP losses. The XP and Free XP are slightly higher due to some type of reward boost I got for that one Co-op win in Bayern as said otherwise XP/Free XP would be 50% or less just like the credits. 

None of this is to complain about Co-op rewards. I am fine with making less playing there. I hope it illustrates however that you can twist things and look at it from this angle and that, until you get it to look like what you want, but when it comes down to the bottom line PVP out earns PVE (Co-op) by around 50-60% when everything is equal. I don't even think you can throw match length/# of games played into it either as quick Co-op games net very low damage/kill numbers and low rewards.

You have to play at least out to the 8-10 minute + range  to even begin to see decent numbers 99% of the time. So even if you can play 3 X's the Co-op games to one Random (I think it is more 1.5-2 max but...) you would have to always come in 1st, have excellent stats, win, and use all the reward boosting resources available just to break even at best with average losses in PVP.

Don't play Co-op thinking it is faster than PVP to grind XP or earn more credits because you can squeeze more games in. You might be able to make it look that way on paper with funny math (LOL not meant to insult OP) but when it comes down to playing you won't see more in PVE (Co-op). Nope, not going to happen. If you want to play PVE and bring in excellent rewards than play the PVE Scenarios/Op's. They pay very well.

An average player with average stats playing PVP will out earn a Unicum PVP player playing Co-op and always winning with greats stats and such. Play Co-op for the less stress and friendly more fun environment. And, remember, patience is needed to slowly grind the lines.

Not meant offensive to anyone. Just discussing the topic. 

 

 

 

Edited by AdmiralThunder

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You are my new hero!

Ive been saying this for ages, the less skilled a player you are, the worse pvp is for you.

Edited by Kconvey_1

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48 minutes ago, Kconvey_1 said:

You are my new hero!

Ive been saying this for ages, the less skilled a player you are, the worse pvp is for you.

Actually from an earnings perspective that is 100% wrong and I showed that above with actual results. You can be a PVP Tater and out earn a Co-op Unicum.

As far as the enjoyment you get from the game, your contributions to the team, etc... that is different. Strictly from a rewards perspective PVP will get you more even if you lose every game.

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3 hours ago, AdmiralThunder said:

Actually from an earnings perspective that is 100% wrong and I showed that above with actual results. You can be a PVP Tater and out earn a Co-op Unicum.

As far as the enjoyment you get from the game, your contributions to the team, etc... that is different. Strictly from a rewards perspective PVP will get you more even if you lose every game.

 

On a game by game basis, you're right. But the analysis is based on the time spent. If you're spamming games as quickly as you can while maximizing your daily win bonus in each ship, the XP earnings for Co-op become competitive. Granted, it's based on the assumption that Random games last 2.45x longer than Co-op games. If that ratio is less, then the XP profitability of spamming Co-op games decreases. 

Again, this is assuming an average or below average winrate in Randoms. If you're consistently performing above average, then Co-op will never earn as much... even if you play your cards perfectly as outlined by the OP. 

 

Edited by Kombat_W0MBAT

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