Jump to content
You need to play a total of 20 battles to post in this section.
Benedict99

RPF Opposition: Even More Community Contributor Evidence

201 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

Members
304 posts
4,008 battles

 

To the dismay of many players, including myself, the toxic captain’s skill “Radio Position Finder” made it into the second round of the 6.0 play test.  That was extremely disappointing given the player base’s avalanche of criticism against the skill and the megaphone criticism of Community Contributors like Flamu.  There is no issue in WoWS that is ever unanimously supported, but the consensus against RPF is as overwhelming as any I’ve ever seen on any subject.

 

But since WG is apparently still considering RPF, we need to point out the continuing stream of evidence against RPF.  So I thought I’d start this thread showing the newest arguments against RPF in the Community Contributors.  (A new thread is necessary because of this new evidence, and because previous threads criticizing RPF were massive.)

 

iEarlGrey

 

            An extremely powerful condemnation of RPF comes in iEarlGrey’s “

” in which he leaves his typical studio-style setting to vividly demonstrate RPF’s toxicity in actual gameplay. 

            As demonstrated beginning at 9:30 or so, RPF allows him to hunt down a DD that did nothing wrong.  iEarlGrey directly laments that he knew right where the Fubuki was even though the DD had never been spotted by anyone during the entire game.  The Fubuki player is shown to be skilled in the use of dodging, disengaging, smoking—and none of it matters, because RPF just keeps pointing right at his position.  Dead.  The only thing the Fubuki did wrong was not take RPF itself.  And even if he had?  Then all that IJN DD player still could have done is to have kept well clear of the battle zone, keeping behind his teammates until the coast was clear.  Again, as has been repeatedly noted in other threads, a lack of RPF will turn a DD into a helpless victim; but even taking RPF will simply turn a DD into a rear-field camper, only able to move up in the absence of opposition.

            Moreover, at 13:40, iEarlGrey shows an incident in which RPF “again gave me an unfair advantage” by allowing him to find a DD that had never been seen by anyone in the whole game.  iEarlGrey wasn’t even hunting that DD—RPF just pointed it out.  Again, the red DD did not do anything wrong, but that doesn’t matter under RPF.

            Indeed, in the same video iEaryGrey shows the truth behind the lie that RPF will only benefit the player with it.  At around 15:50, he waggles the RPF indicator to triangulate a hidden ship’s position—a ship that had never been spotted the whole game—then pings the map and explains in chat to his teammates that an hidden enemy is there.  As a result, all the team players turn toward that hidden ship, both their courses and their guns (iEarlGrey: “all those guns were forewarned to turn to that point”) and the DD is instantly massacred, leading iEarlGrey to directly announce “that’s why this [RPF] skill has to go.”  After all, what was the red DD’s fault that got him massacred?  Nothing.  Nothing other than the fact that he didn’t camp out safely behind his teammates.  Notably, this executed DD had been doing the very thing that all teams want their DDS to do: he was attempting to contest a cap zone early in the game.  RPF will ensure that this pro-team bravery will end, and zones will tend to be capped only when they are empty of opposition or are contested by CAs and BBS.

 

NoZoupForYou

 

        Another new call for RPF to not be in the game comes from NoZoupForYou in a video that bears the unequivocal title, “

.”  He notes in the video and its description that his previous comments about RPF were too neutral, so he wanted to be clearer about his opposition.

 

Aeroon

 

        Even the so-called pro-destroyer possibilities of RPF are actually ruinous to gameplay.  In a recent

, he argued that having an RPF in his Shimakaze was ‘useful’ (his favourite euphemism for it).  And he illustrates this with a situation in which having an RPF pointer aimed at a distant Yamato allowed him to know that the path was perfectly clear for him to approach that Yamato.  True?  Certainly.  But consider that certainty in a game of strategy can be toxic to the game play.  In that example, Aeroon did not need to gauge the tactical situation and use judgement to infer the positions of ships based on minimap info—all skill-based calculations of risk.  Instead, RPF removed the calculation; instead, RPF removed the risk.

            I also note that in this video, in which RPF seems to help a DD cap a zone, there were no enemies anywhere near Aeroon’s DD hunting it.  Aeroon capped the zone and pointed out that he did so safely because RPF allowed him to know that the cap was devoid of enemies.  But this is pyrrhic support for RPF: it shows that yes, indeed, RPF works fine for a DD when the DD does not have any enemies around.  What would Aeroon, in his Shimakze, have done if RPF told him there was a ship near that zone?  Particularly one with RPF?  He damn well would not have gone in there and capped it—again, other ships would have had to do so.

            Aeroon has other videos in which RPF is similarly ‘useful.’  At 11:07

he announces his intention to use RPF to repeat Flamu’s famous video feat of torpedoing a completely undetected ship using RPF—its ‘last position’ was not even on the minimap, since nobody on his whole team had seen that ship.  And Aeroon seems surprised to discover that this blind torpedo launch works.  (“Oh my God, I actually hit the torpedo!  Do you believe that?  Do you believe that?”)  Notably, the utterly undetected player he torpedoes is a gifted unicum “_TheSneakySnake_” (divisioned up with Notser at the time) who did nothing wrong in the game.

            To summarize, Aeroon’s videos on RPF show a dynamic present in other videos in which a commentator does not directly criticize RPF, yet they actually end up providing evidence that RPF should be banned.  Indeed, I invite everyone to not only watch the Aeroon videos, but also to read the comments of his viewers posted below the videos.  They are, like the vast majority of players who learn about RPF, extremely opposed to RPF.  What does it say when a Community Contributor who says positive things about RPF isn’t even close to convincing his own viewers?

         

A Final Thought

  

            Finally, I want to point out that—among the many poisonous downsides of RPF identified so far—there is one that hasn’t been discussed directly yet.

            If you watch the videos on RPF, you’ll become aware that the player ends up focusing on RPF indicator.   Staring....  Staring....  The experience becomes like that of a person with a metal detector wandering a beach, not looking at the sea or swimmers or sky—just at that little needle on the dial.  The game experience starts to become all about that little tyrannical magic pointer. 

            RPF becomes the tour guide.  You follow it around; you look at what it tells you to look it.  Tactics become tourism.

 

            War Games—get rid of RPF.  To paraphrase commentators like NoZoupForYou: Who exactly was asking for RPF anyway?

 

Edited by Benedict99
  • Cool 48

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,614 posts
10,688 battles

And yet we will still have people saying it's "worthless" and "too expensive". After abusing it to death on the PTS I can't find any way this skill isn't horrendously OP. It goes way beyond Destroyers. But if it goes live it will only be a matter of time before players start figuring out how insane the skill is and start using it way more than people think.

 

The lower tiers are going to be drowning in salt once the RPF seal clubbing starts.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
1,180 posts
7,853 battles

Yes, if RPF goes in as is it is going to be a huge problem. Expect the DD population to drop pretty significantly if people start taking RPF on their captains.

 

My hope is that they add a radar switch that lets you turn off comms to combat RPF. Right now, knowing that you are lit by RPF does nothing. You can't get away in most cases. But if you could turn off your radar (and then not be sending or receiving information from teammates about enemy ship positions) it at least gives the DD a way to combat against RPF.

 

Or, they could add some randomization to the RPF. Have it cycle like a radar where it blips every so often and isn't so exact in how it represents the DD location.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,614 posts
10,688 battles

Yes, if RPF goes in as is it is going to be a huge problem. Expect the DD population to drop pretty significantly if people start taking RPF on their captains.

 

My hope is that they add a radar switch that lets you turn off comms to combat RPF. Right now, knowing that you are lit by RPF does nothing. You can't get away in most cases. But if you could turn off your radar (and then not be sending or receiving information from teammates about enemy ship positions) it at least gives the DD a way to combat against RPF.

 

Or, they could add some randomization to the RPF. Have it cycle like a radar where it blips every so often and isn't so exact in how it represents the DD location.

 

No! remove the damn thing. Don't give them a reason to weasel this nonsense into the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
-Members-
6,960 posts
10,623 battles

Yes, if RPF goes in as is it is going to be a huge problem. Expect the DD population to drop pretty significantly if people start taking RPF on their captains.

 

My hope is that they add a radar switch that lets you turn off comms to combat RPF. Right now, knowing that you are lit by RPF does nothing. You can't get away in most cases. But if you could turn off your radar (and then not be sending or receiving information from teammates about enemy ship positions) it at least gives the DD a way to combat against RPF.

 

Or, they could add some randomization to the RPF. Have it cycle like a radar where it blips every so often and isn't so exact in how it represents the DD location.

 

RPF needs to be removed. There is no other alternative healthy to the game.

 

Whoever came up with this [edited] should be fired.

  • Cool 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
323
[KOOKS]
Alpha Tester
2,869 posts
4,864 battles

The damage has to be done before they will do anything to fix it...that's WG for ya.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
182
[WHS]
Beta Testers
1,073 posts
14,320 battles

I think there's mostly just a few very vocal people about it. People who usually know what they're talking about like iChase think it's not game breaking. I'm willing to give it a try personally tho I think it's a dumb thing to add, simply because it has no basis in reality of course. I don't see how it will be more useful to me with most ships I have than other options.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
304 posts
4,008 battles

And yet we will still have people saying it's "worthless" and "too expensive". After abusing it to death on the PTS I can't find any way this skill isn't horrendously OP. It goes way beyond Destroyers. But if it goes live it will only be a matter of time before players start figuring out how insane the skill is and start using it way more than people think.

 

The lower tiers are going to be drowning in salt once the RPF seal clubbing starts.

 

Indeed -- another player who has directly used RPF and wants it gone.

 

And I think you're right.  Some people hate RPF because they fear that it'll be a crutch for the unskilled players--and there's some truth in that.  Notser called it a skill "for the Bads."  I think this is why WG wants it.

 

But I think that experienced players like myself will pop RPF in a Gremy or their other favorite killer and tear a hole through anyone who's not a fellow experienced player with RPF.  Everyone who isn't a BB or a long-range sniper will need to have RPF, and only so that they can be equally miserable and not just the most helpless member of the food chain.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,614 posts
10,688 battles

I think there's mostly just a few very vocal people about it. People who usually know what they're talking about like iChase think it's not game breaking. I'm willing to give it a try personally tho I think it's a dumb thing to add, simply because it has no basis in reality of course. I don't see how it will be more useful to me with most ships I have than other options.

 

​Why do people keep bringing up iChase's weak reasoning for keeping RPF. His video was such a set up in his favor. He cherry picked the best situation he could possibly get and tried to make it look good. Don't give him credit he doesn't deserve. :sceptic:
  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
304 posts
4,008 battles

The damage has to be done before they will do anything to fix it...that's WG for ya.

 

Frankly, I think you're dead right.  This post should be on a t-shirt.

 

My only caveat: sometimes, WG doesn't fix the damage.  See the ongoing bleeding of the Tier 5 broken MM and the carriers and most of the IJN DD line and... and... and...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
304 posts
4,008 battles

Yay, in time for another "The sky is falling" thread.

 

:popcorn:

 

Parts of the sky already fell, friend.  Carriers.  Much of the US BB line (and its CA line).  Tier 5 MM.  We're already knee-deep in sky-blue rubble, and some of us are putting in a conscientious effort to keep from being waist deep next week and worse next month.

 

 

 

  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,999
[V_KNG]
Beta Testers
13,205 posts

It seems to me they cannot be this oblivious to the potential usage of the skill. So let's presume they considered all the ramifications of implementing it. Even against feedback from some of there most supportive YouTubers they continue to pursue it's implementation. Now you are forced to ask yourself one question. 

 

Why? 

 

It seems to me they are forcing a "meta change" down the proverbial throat of players. Like it or not, here it comes... open up the hangar because the plane is landing like it or not. You know? 

 

What do you guys think - aside from the broken/borked apsect of the skill... WHY? TIA for your comments :-) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,999
[V_KNG]
Beta Testers
13,205 posts

I think there's mostly just a few very vocal people about it. People who usually know what they're talking about like iChase think it's not game breaking. I'm willing to give it a try personally tho I think it's a dumb thing to add, simply because it has no basis in reality of course. I don't see how it will be more useful to me with most ships I have than other options.

 

He's been toasted by others who usually know what they're talking about - and those folks call it game-breaking. 
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
304 posts
4,008 battles

I think there's mostly just a few very vocal people about it. People who usually know what they're talking about like iChase think it's not game breaking. I'm willing to give it a try personally tho I think it's a dumb thing to add, simply because it has no basis in reality of course. I don't see how it will be more useful to me with most ships I have than other options.

 

Oh my goodness, sir.  People--players and CCers--have been criticizing RPF long and loud and widely.  "Just a few?"  Look not only at the threads with hundreds of entries on this very forum, go to the videos I've linked here and other threads and read through the hundreds of comments below them.  Indeed, I've referred to the POV of people like iChase who are not calling for an RPF in other threads.  But they're simply outweighed by the many other commentators and players are calling for a ban -- and doing so with more vivid evidence and arguments.

 

And as for "give it a try personally" -- I urge you to go back over the RPF threads, including this very one, in which players who have tried RPF in playtesting have called for it to be banned.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,614 posts
10,688 battles

It seems to me they cannot be this oblivious to the potential usage of the skill. So let's presume they considered all the ramifications of implementing it. Even against feedback from some of there most supportive YouTubers they continue to pursue it's implementation. Now you are forced to ask yourself one question. 

 

Why? 

 

It seems to me they are forcing a "meta change" down the proverbial throat of players. Like it or not, here it comes... open up the hangar because the plane is landing like it or not. You know? 

 

What do you guys think - aside from the broken/borked apsect of the skill... WHY? TIA for your comments :-) 

 

It's not going to change anything. It's just going to make camping worse. Now DD are going to start doing it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,521
[WOLF7]
Members
12,620 posts

Why do people have such a hard time with this? WG is going to cater to the masses, it should surprise no one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
777
[BARF]
Beta Testers
5,816 posts
5,484 battles

To the dismay of many players, including myself, the toxic captain’s skill “Radio Position Finder” made it into the second round of the 6.0 play test.  That was extremely disappointing given the player base’s avalanche of criticism against the skill and the megaphone criticism of Community Contributors like Flamu.  There is no issue in WoWS that is ever unanimously supported, but the consensus against RPF is as overwhelming as any I’ve ever seen on any subject.

 

But since WG is apparently still considering RPF, we need to point out the continuing stream of evidence against RPF.  So I thought I’d start this thread showing the newest arguments against RPF in the Community Contributors.  (A new thread is necessary because of this new evidence, and because previous threads criticizing RPF were massive.)

 

iEarlGrey

 

            An extremely powerful condemnation of RPF comes in iEarlGrey’s “

” in which he leaves his typical studio-style setting to vividly demonstrate RPF’s toxicity in actual gameplay. 

            As demonstrated beginning at 9:30 or so, RPF allows him to hunt down a DD that did nothing wrong.  iEarlGrey directly laments that he knew right where the Fubuki was even though the DD had never been spotted by anyone during the entire game.  The Fubuki player is shown to be skilled in the use of dodging, disengaging, smoking—and none of it matters, because RPF just keeps pointing right at his position.  Dead.  The only thing the Fubuki did wrong was not take RPF itself.  And even if he had?  Then all that IJN DD player still could have done is to have kept well clear of the battle zone, keeping behind his teammates until the coast was clear.  Again, as has been repeatedly noted in other threads, a lack of RPF will turn a DD into a helpless victim; but even taking RPF will simply turn a DD into a rear-field camper, only able to move up in the absence of opposition.

            Moreover, at 13:40, iEarlGrey shows an incident in which RPF “again gave me an unfair advantage” by allowing him to find a DD that had never been seen by anyone in the whole game.  iEarlGrey wasn’t even hunting that DD—RPF just pointed it out.  Again, the red DD did not do anything wrong, but that doesn’t matter under RPF.

            Indeed, in the same video iEaryGrey shows the truth behind the lie that RPF will only benefit the player with it.  At around 15:50, he waggles the RPF indicator to triangulate a hidden ship’s position—a ship that had never been spotted the whole game—then pings the map and explains in chat to his teammates that an hidden enemy is there.  As a result, all the team players turn toward that hidden ship, both their courses and their guns (iEarlGrey: “all those guns were forewarned to turn to that point”) and the DD is instantly massacred, leading iEarlGrey to directly announce “that’s why this [RPF] skill has to go.”  After all, what was the red DD’s fault that got him massacred?  Nothing.  Nothing other than the fact that he didn’t camp out safely behind his teammates.  Notably, this executed DD had been doing the very thing that all teams want their DDS to do: he was attempting to contest a cap zone early in the game.  RPF will ensure that this pro-team bravery will end, and zones will tend to be capped only when they are empty of opposition or are contested by CAs and BBS.

 

NoZoupForYou

 

        Another new call for RPF to not be in the game comes from NoZoupForYou in a video that bears the unequivocal title, “

.”  He notes in the video and its description that his previous comments about RPF were too neutral, so he wanted to be clearer about his opposition.

 

Aeroon

 

        Even the so-called pro-destroyer possibilities of RPF are actually ruinous to gameplay.  In a recent

, he argued that having an RPF in his Shimakaze was ‘useful’ (his favourite euphemism for it).  And he illustrates this with a situation in which having an RPF pointer aimed at a distant Yamato allowed him to know that the path was perfectly clear for him to approach that Yamato.  True?  Certainly.  But consider that certainty in a game of strategy can be toxic to the game play.  In that example, Aeroon did not need to gauge the tactical situation and use judgement to infer the positions of ships based on minimap info—all skill-based calculations of risk.  Instead, RPF removed the calculation; instead, RPF removed the risk.

            I also note that in this video, in which RPF seems to help a DD cap a zone, there were no enemies anywhere near Aeroon’s DD hunting it.  Aeroon capped the zone and pointed out that he did so safely because RPF allowed him to know that the cap was devoid of enemies.  But this is pyrrhic support for RPF: it shows that yes, indeed, RPF works fine for a DD when the DD does not have any enemies around.  What would Aeroon, in his Shimakze, have done if RPF told him there was a ship near that zone?  Particularly one with RPF?  He damn well would not have gone in there and capped it—again, other ships would have had to do so.

            Aeroon has other videos in which RPF is similarly ‘useful.’  At 11:07

he announces his intention to use RPF to repeat Flamu’s famous video feat of torpedoing a completely undetected ship using RPF—its ‘last position’ was not even on the minimap, since nobody on his whole team had seen that ship.  And Aeroon seems surprised to discover that this blind torpedo launch works.  (“Oh my God, I actually hit the torpedo!  Do you believe that?  Do you believe that?”)  Notably, the utterly undetected player he torpedoes is a gifted unicum “_TheSneakySnake_” (divisioned up with Notser at the time) who did nothing wrong in the game.

            To summarize, Aeroon’s videos on RPF show a dynamic present in other videos in which a commentator does not directly criticize RPF, yet they actually end up providing evidence that RPF should be banned.  Indeed, I invite everyone to not only watch the Aeroon videos, but also to read the comments of his viewers posted below the videos.  They are, like the vast majority of players who learn about RPF, extremely opposed to RPF.  What does it say when a Community Contributor who says positive things about RPF isn’t even close to convincing his own viewers?

         

A Final Thought

  

            Finally, I want to point out that—among the many poisonous downsides of RPF identified so far—there is one that hasn’t been discussed directly yet.

            If you watch the videos on RPF, you’ll become aware that the player ends up focusing on RPF indicator.   Staring....  Staring....  The experience becomes like that of a person with a metal detector wandering a beach, not looking at the sea or swimmers or sky—just at that little needle on the dial.  The game experience starts to become all about that little tyrannical magic pointer. 

            RPF becomes the tour guide.  You follow it around; you look at what it tells you to look it.  Tactics become tourism.

 

            War Games—get rid of RPF.  To paraphrase commentators like NoZoupForYou: Who exactly was asking for RPF anyway?

 

You forgot Jingles. He is certainly far more of a community contributor than Flamu. Jingles has also stated while RPF is a tactic that was done in war, it was not turned on all the time because it was not like a TeamSpeak server where no one shuts the [edited] up. Jingles has made his opinion clear that this should be a consumable, not a skill, and be temporary. 

 

Ugh, Flamu and community contributor only go together if the community is his ego

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
304 posts
4,008 battles

It seems to me they cannot be this oblivious to the potential usage of the skill. So let's presume they considered all the ramifications of implementing it. Even against feedback from some of there most supportive YouTubers they continue to pursue it's implementation. Now you are forced to ask yourself one question. 

 

Why? 

 

It seems to me they are forcing a "meta change" down the proverbial throat of players. Like it or not, here it comes... open up the hangar because the plane is landing like it or not. You know? 

 

What do you guys think - aside from the broken/borked apsect of the skill... WHY? TIA for your comments :-) 

 

This is indeed the fear that I think many of us have -- and I've alluded to it before on other threads.  The outcry against RPF is strong and the evidence of its damage is so clear that the fact that WG put it in the second round of patch 6.0 testing is chilling -- it supports your suggestion that WG wants to wreck the present game to change the meta.  They've intentionally wrecked other parts of the game before.  If they've decided to do so in this case, then we're in trouble.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
304 posts
4,008 battles

You forgot Jingles. He is certainly far more of a community contributor than Flamu. Jingles has also stated while RPF is a tactic that was done in war, it was not turned on all the time because it was not like a TeamSpeak server where no one shuts the [edited] up. Jingles has made his opinion clear that this should be a consumable, not a skill, and be temporary. 

 

 

Wow, I didn't catch that Jingles video.  Good share!  Could you--or someone--post a link to it?  (A time index citation for the exact point he discusses RPF would help people too.)

 

Notably, NoZoupForYou was also suggesting that if RPF wasn't banned, it should be moderated.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
777
[BARF]
Beta Testers
5,816 posts
5,484 battles

 

Wow, I didn't catch that Jingles video.  Good share!  Could you--or someone--post a link to it?  (A time index citation for the exact point he discusses RPF would help people too.)

 

Notably, NoZoupForYou was also suggesting that if RPF wasn't banned, it should be moderated.

 

Mingles with Jingles. I will have to try and find the timestamp where he talks about it

 

Edit:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
1,136 posts
4,017 battles

Nerf wasd harder plz, wargaming.

New wargaming captain skill-- emergency action. For 4 points, the autopilot will take over when torpedoes are detected and navigate you through the them automatically along the safest course.

 

And whatever happened to the talk of using secondaries to engage torpedoes? Wouldn't that be a less obnoxious soft counter?

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
777
[BARF]
Beta Testers
5,816 posts
5,484 battles

Nerf wasd harder plz, wargaming.

New wargaming captain skill-- emergency action. For 4 points, the autopilot will take over when torpedoes are detected and navigate you through the them automatically along the safest course.

 

And whatever happened to the talk of using secondaries to engage torpedoes? Wouldn't that be a less obnoxious soft counter?

Except for the odds of success being stupidly low to begin with. Have you ever shot a high velocity bullet into water? 

The bullets Shatter before they get more than a couple of meters into the water. I'm pretty sure torpedos did not sit on the surface

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,614 posts
10,688 battles

I support WG in this, RPF is a good thing

 

​It is a horrible thing that will dumb down the game even more. Have fun camping with everyone else.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×