z-23(t8) > z-46(t9) and z-52(t10)?

[HolyWaterCow]

I'm now on the z-46 after really enjoying the z-23 (which was the first German DD I enjoyed since the lower tier German DDs) and I feel like I took a step down by moving on to the z-46.

The z-23 has the option of 150mm guns but the z-46 and z-52 are stuck with only the 128mm guns. The 150mm are slower firing and slower to rotate but they are significantly more powerful and most importantly, their fire starting % is much higher.

 

z-23's 150mm guns: HE shells 2,200dmg; stock 12% chance of fire (16% chance of fire with flags and capt skill 'demo expert')

z-46 and z-52's 128mm guns: HE shells 1,500dmg; stock 7% chance of fire (11% chance of fire with flags and capt skill 'demo expert)

 

The guns on z-46 (t9) and z-52 (t10) are inferior to those of the z-23 (t8).

The torpedoes are improved only very slightly each tier (1 extra knot and .5 extra km).

The AA improves quite significantly but let's not kid ourselves that even a DD with (relatively) excellent AA will do much of anything against the DBs/TBs from a t8-t10 CV.

Survivability improves moderately.

 

A downgrade in main battery and just slight, incremental improvements in other areas of the ship are very disappointing. To those of you with the z-52, is it worth playing for? Perhaps I'm missing something. If not though, I don't want to continue down a line that maxes out at tier 8.

[madgiecool]

TY for the info.

 

I got the Gaede for the weekend special.

 

Still not enjoying the Ge DD line as much as I would like.

 

Nice to know they get Better/Worse at the higher tiers.

[MrDeaf]

Z-52 has proper german hydro, so it gets 5.88km ship detection range.

[Destroyer_KuroshioKai]

I have had pretty good results killing DDs with German AP on Z-46 and 52.  Retesting the 128mm on Z-23 right now with the same tactics.  So far the results are promising.  I dont miss the 150mm and have better range.

 

As a long time IJN DD main, I am really excited about this line.

[SneakyBote]

The Z-23 is severely under gunned in my opinion. While the 15cm guns have excellent HE alpha damage, they have poor overall HE DPM (same as the Kagero), and significantly worse AP DPM than the 4x 128mm option. The Z-46's 6x128mm guns not only have much better HE DPM (still not up to USN levels though), but they have the best AP DPM of any DD. Getting success out of the 128mm guns is all about putting that AP to use, even against DDs.

[Destroyer_KuroshioKai]

Some replays.  Maybe it can help someone.

 

Z-23 4 kills 177k damage I forget if I was using the 150mm on this replay.  I find I prefer the 128mm these days.

http://wowreplays.com/Replay/26402-Destroyer_KuroshioKai-Estuary

 

Z-46 5 kills 144k damage - Has some good DD fights

http://wowreplays.com/Replay/26285-Destroyer_KuroshioKai-Shatter

 

Z-52 1 Kill 174k damage

http://wowreplays.com/Replay/28233-Destroyer_KuroshioKai-Shatter

[Nanostrike]

The Z-23 is severely under gunned in my opinion. While the 15cm guns have excellent HE alpha damage, they have poor overall HE DPM (same as the Kagero), and significantly worse AP DPM than the 4x 128mm option. The Z-46's 6x128mm guns not only have much better HE DPM (still not up to USN levels though), but they have the best AP DPM of any DD. Getting success out of the 128mm guns is all about putting that AP to use, even against DDs.

What's the best way to use 128mm AP on an emeny DD?  I always get bounces or overpens, nothing in-between.

[SteeLeviathan]

Whats the point of using the z-23 if you are not running the 150mm. That 150mm allows you to have the extra gun, as well as deal more damage then 128mm. It also has enough strength behind its shells to cit tier 10 ships like the Zao. Sure you sacrificed speed for the extra damage, but really, speed is only necessary for those times you knife fight with other dd, and depending on what you are fighting, you will often lose. Benson, fletchers and Gearings will always hit you faster and harder then what you will with he and your ap is not reliable enough to use it against them. I have tried several times with the 128mm to knife fight and it never ends well for the z-23. It doesn't have a good enough turning to dodge the rounds for dd and the gun bloom always attracts the attention of other ships when you fight and they are the ones to finish you off. In truth, the german line should never try to fire there guns unless they need to defend themselves or they have a chance of hitting a target that doesn't have others around it that can take advantage of your gun bloom. The way I play the Z-23 now, is as a torpboat, because that is basically what the entire line is, a rapid firing torpedo boat. I don't know about the Z-46 or the Z-52, as I haven't played them, but that 90 to 81 second reload on your torps is a beast. I would also think the top tiers would also be fast as they can get the torpedo reload that would drop there reload down to something along the lines of 61 seconds, if I can remember what I heard. So playing as a torpedo boat, you should try your hardest to stay hidden. Only use your guns on ships that you know you will get away with hitting. 

 

 

Edited. Though the torps reload fast, they don't have the damage output that is required to be considered a good torpboat, so perhaps I don't know what to say what the german dd are considered. I just know that it the turret rotation of the z-23 is not good enough to knife fight other dd. the z line works best when they have some distance between their targets, similar to a Russia destroyer in a way. 

[Ju87s]

What's the best way to use 128mm AP on an emeny DD?  I always get bounces or overpens, nothing in-between.

 

I'm with you dude.  Whether it's the 128s or 150s, I've had absolutely no success with AP against DDs.  Was just giving it another shot in my Z-23 against a full broadside Gaede a minute ago.  was lighitng him up right in the "citadel spot" and I was getting 1200 hits at best.

[Nanostrike]

I'm half-convinced someone is spreading misinformation about this whole "German AP is good vs DDs" thing.

 

Just testing last night, I had nothing but overpens no matter where I aimed on broadside DDs.

[SneakyBote]

What's the best way to use 128mm AP on an emeny DD?  I always get bounces or overpens, nothing in-between.

German AP is consistent against broadside DDs that have a wide beam and high freeboard, such as the Gearing, VMF DDs T7+, German DDs, and Akizuki. Against narrower DDs you'll only get penetrations on the engine block and magazines (which can be hard to hit reliably), and even then only when they're slightly angled. Fortunately, the DDs that you can't reliably murder with AP when they show broadside are IJN DDs that you can outgun with your weak HE anyways. Fletcher and Benson are the only problematic DDs.