Jump to content
You need to play a total of 20 battles to post in this section.
dseehafer

Calculated Statistics for RN Gorizia (Zara class)

28 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

4,791
[HINON]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
8,856 posts
3,680 battles

Greetings all,

 

   Today we'll be looking at Italy's heavy cruiser RM Gorizia which was the longest lived of the four Zara class heavy cruisers. It has been suggested that the Zara class cruisers take up the tier 8 spot in the Italian Cruiser tree so we'll run with that and compare her calculated statistics with those of the Admiral Hipper since both ships share some similarities, specifically, they both have a main battery of 8x 8" guns.

 

 This is basically an ADLA but uses calculation instead of speculation to show how a particular ship is most likely to perform in game. This is possible thanks to the formula's provided us by fellow forumite Fro5ty. Here are the specific formulas we'll be using for this review.

 

Burn chance: 5.0447 X (Bursting charge mass (kg) ^ 0.4612)

HE damage formula: 886.3 X ((Shell weight (kg) X Bursting charge mass (kg)) ^ 0.1658)

AP Damage (with weird outliers removed like German AP) = 18.588 x ( (Shell weight in kg x muzzle velocity in m/s) ^ 0.4787 )

Cruiser HP Formula: (1.8631 X tonnage (metric tons)) + 9859.4

 

Note: all calculations are rounded to the nearest hundredth.

 

Other statistics such as turret rotation speed and reload times come from Navweaps while armor statistics come primarily from Navypedia.

 

    Now then, sometimes WG will artificially inject a "flavor" into a ship's/nation's play-style which can, and often will, mess with these calculations. For example, German AP damage is increased while German HE damage is decreased and Royal Navy Cruisers only fire special AP rounds. However, for the majority of the ships in game these formulas prove remarkably accurate. Therefore, while they may not be 100% accurate, they are the best way us lowly players have of guessing how a particular ship is likely to perform in game.

 

b3aDE9H.png

 

Displacement

1: Hipper - 18,210 t

2: Gorizia - 14,330 t

 

Hitpoints

1: Hipper - 43,800

2: Gorizia - 36,600

 

Top Speed

1: Gorizia - 33kn (possibly as high as 35.2kn as that was attained on trials)

2: Hipper - 32kn

 

Main Battery

Both: 4x2 203 mm (8")

 

Main Battery ROF

1: Hipper - 4.6 (shot every 13s)

2: Gorizia - 3.8 (shot every 15.7s)

 

Main Battery Initial Shell Velocity

1: Gorizia - 900 mps for AP shell (940 mps for HE shell)

2: Hipper - 925 mps (both shell types)

 

Main Battery Turret Traverse Speed in Degrees per Second

1: Hipper - 8

2: Gorizia - 6

 

Main Battery AP Citadel Damage

1: Hipper - 5,900

2: Gorizia - 4,700

 

Main Battery AP Broadside Citadel Damage

1: Hipper - 47,200

2: Gorizia - 37,600

 

Main Battery AP Broadside Citadel Damage per Minute

1: Hipper - 217,120

2: Gorizia - 142,880

 

Main Battery HE Citadel Damage

1: Gorizia - 2,700

2: Hipper - 2,500

 

Main Battery HE Broadside Citadel Damage

1: Gorizia - 21,600

2: Hipper - 20,000

 

Main Battery HE Broadside Citadel Damage per Minute

1: Hipper - 92,000

2: Gorizia - 82,080

 

Main Battery HE shell Burn Chance

Both - 13%

 

Secondary Battery

1: Hipper - 6x2 105 mm (6 guns to a broadside)

2: Gorizia - 6x2 100 mm (6 guns to a broadside)

 

Secondary Battery Reload Time

Hipper - 3.35s

Gorizia - 5s

 

Secondary Battery HE Citadel Damage

1: Gorizia - 1,400

2: Hipper - 1,300

 

Secondary Battery HE Burn Chance

1: Hipper - 9%

2: Gorizia - 6%

 

Torpedo Battery

1: Hipper - 4x3 533 mm

2: Gorizia - None

 

Long Range AA Battery

1: Hipper - 3x2 105 mm

2: Gorizia - 3x2 100 mm

 

Medium Range AA Battery

1: Hipper - 18x1 40 mm

2: Gorizia - 6x2 37 mm

 

Short Range AA Battery

1: Hipper - 4x2 20mm, 6x4 20 mm

2: Gorizia - 4x2 13.2 mm

 

Armor Belt

1: Gorizia - 150mm

2: Hipper - 80mm (plus 30mm turtleback and 20mm torpedo bulkhead)

 

Armor Decks

1: Gorizia - 20 + 70 mm

2: Hipper - 25 + 30 mm

 

Turrets Faces

1: Hipper - 160mm

2: Gorizia - 150mm

 

Barbettes

1: Gorizia - 120-150 mm

2: Hipper - 80mm

 

 

 

Cocnlusion: Perhaps the Zara class cruisers have no business being at tier 8... at least not without some major fantasy help from WG. The lack of torpedoes really hurts them. WG can give her more AA guns and artificially buff her ROF and get away with it... but adding torpedoes that didnt exist might be pushing it a bit too far.

 

Edited by dseehafer
  • Cool 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
5,424 posts
3,448 battles

As you said, no way this is a tier 8. The amount of fantasy tack-ons it'd need to make tier 8 worthy would just make the ship unrecognizable.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,168
[SYN]
[SYN]
Members
9,312 posts
18,896 battles

I think T8's a bit of a stretch. The only positive column is decent MV and the belt armor of Des Moines.

 

8 guns and 3.8 RPM is insufficient punch even for T7. No torpedoes is in the negative column.

 

Killing the other guy first, which needs solid damage output can be as effective as armor when under attack, and makes you more useful when you're not. USN cruisers are comparatively more tanky, it doesn't seem to get them far.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
11,668 posts

 

 

It seems like a logical conclusion, though RoF is in the table as a manipulated stat, otherwise the Aoba needs to be put at Tier 5.

 

Without a major RoF buff to at least 5 rounds a minute, virtually every Euro CA --- including the British County class, French Algerie, would have problems competing even in Tier 7, much less Tier 8.  

 

The York class aka HMS Exeter, if given her historical rate of 4 rounds per minute, can only be assigned to Tier 5.  

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
278 posts
3,457 battles

This as a tier 8, I am sorry but no, it would be absolutely obliterated. looking at how so many of the stats you have here are worse than or about the same as hipper she would be incredibly uncompetitive, being Italian it is unlikely she will get radar and therefore she would just be a worse Hipper. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,791
[HINON]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
8,856 posts
3,680 battles

 

 

It seems like a logical conclusion, though RoF is in the table as a manipulated stat, otherwise the Aoba needs to be put at Tier 5.

 

Without a major RoF buff to at least 5 rounds a minute, virtually every Euro CA --- including the British County class, French Algerie, would have problems competing even in Tier 7, much less Tier 8.  

 

The York class aka HMS Exeter, if given her historical rate of 4 rounds per minute, can only be assigned to Tier 5.  

 

 

 

At least those ships have torpedoes...

 

I'm thinking the Italian cruiser line will be like the British one.. all Light cruisers with some premium heavy crusers. Italy had some kick-a$$ light cruisers during WWII.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,791
[HINON]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
8,856 posts
3,680 battles

This as a tier 8, I am sorry but no, it would be absolutely obliterated. looking at how so many of the stats you have here are worse than or about the same as hipper she would be incredibly uncompetitive, being Italian it is unlikely she will get radar and therefore she would just be a worse Hipper. 

 

That's exactly what we're saying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
1,879 posts
21 battles

Don't the German get an arbitrary buff to AP? If so it is a moot point comparing a German cruiser with another not yet implemented. Anyway if deemed unfit there's always the original project which had aroumd 14000 tons standard diplacement(like Hipper) and torpedoes, reducing drastically the gap(plus 200 mm belt for the lolz)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,791
[HINON]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
8,856 posts
3,680 battles

Don't the German get an arbitrary buff to AP? If so it is a moot point comparing a German cruiser with another not yet implemented. Anyway if deemed unfit there's always the original project which had aroumd 14000 tons standard diplacement(like Hipper) and torpedoes, reducing drastically the gap(plus 200 mm belt for the lolz)

 

Yes and also a nerf to HE which evens things out. "An eye for and eye", if you will.
Edited by dseehafer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
1,879 posts
21 battles

 

Yes and also a nerf to HE which evens things out. "An eye for and eye", if you will.

 

The problem is that the two "errors" don't compensate each other since Zara should be AP oriented(the guns aren't that different). By the way should be RN Zara, RM is Regia Marina while RN is Regia Nave

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,168
[SYN]
[SYN]
Members
9,312 posts
18,896 battles

Eh, so apparently I've completely reversed my opinion from 2 months ago: http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/102360-the-case-for-the-gorizia-as-italys-tier-viii-premium-cruiser/page__p__2516901#entry2516901

 

Hmm, maybe I got carried away with the combat record, though even higher MV sounded nice. Maybe less so compared to Hipper so directly. If you had moderately useful HE and stand off capability...

 

 

The Italian line I still see as a hybrid. Some of the CL are pretty solid, but maybe can't get high enough. Could need to be a mix. Is Abruzzi a T6 candidate, strong ship but the best of the built light cruisers.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,791
[HINON]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
8,856 posts
3,680 battles

 

The problem is that the two "errors" don't compensate each other since Zara should be AP oriented(the guns aren't that different). By the way should be RN Zara, RM is Regia Marina while RN is Regia Nave

 

I though Regia Marina was correct?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regia_Marina

 

Anyways I fixed it.

 

Even if we go with the argument that comparing her to a German ship is unfair that doesnt change the fact that she doesnt have torpedoes, has low hitpoints, inadequate AA and is still under-gunned in most respects for a tier 8 cruiser.

Edited by dseehafer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,791
[HINON]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
8,856 posts
3,680 battles

Eh, so apparently I've completely reversed my opinion from 2 months ago: http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/102360-the-case-for-the-gorizia-as-italys-tier-viii-premium-cruiser/page__p__2516901#entry2516901

 

Hmm, maybe I got carried away with the combat record, though even higher MV sounded nice. Maybe less so compared to Hipper so directly. If you had moderately useful HE and stand off capability...

 

 

The Italian line I still see as a hybrid. Some of the CL are pretty solid, but maybe can't get high enough. Could need to be a mix. Is Abruzzi a T6 candidate, strong ship but the best of the built light cruisers.

 

 

 

I'd have Abruzzi as tier 7 even. 10 guns (although with slightly underwhelming rof for their size), adequate AA, superb protection for a light cruiser (heck for any cruiser), torpedoes, good speed.. she's a bit light but that should be balanced out by her armor.

 

Compare her to Pensacola.. both have 10 guns. Abruzzi's are smaller but fire 1 round per minute more than Pepsi's and Abruzzi has torpedoes to boot, pepsi weighs about 1,000t more (1,000t of extra hitpoints) but her armor cant hold a candle to Abruzzi's. Abruzzi is also faster than pepsi. Abruzzi really only loses out in the AA and hitpoint category's.

Edited by dseehafer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
11,668 posts

 

At least those ships have torpedoes...

 

I'm thinking the Italian cruiser line will be like the British one.. all Light cruisers with some premium heavy crusers. Italy had some kick-a$$ light cruisers during WWII.

 

 

People will look at them and think Kirovs with 6" guns.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
3,229 posts
7,820 battles

If the New Orleans can run in tier 8 with 35,000 HP and no torpedos with lower broadside salvos than Hipper, so too can all the others.  

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
1,879 posts
21 battles

 

I though Regia Marina was correct?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regia_Marina

 

Anyways I fixed it.

 

Even if we go with the argument that comparing her to a German ship is unfair that doesnt change the fact that she doesnt have torpedoes, has low hitpoints, inadequate AA and is still under-gunned in most respects for a tier 8 cruiser.

In AA there were mounts planned so they could use those(since the same argument can be said for the French or even the Germans if you don't count past 1943 mounts). Displacement wise shouldn't be that far off from other cruisers(Hipper is probably the heaviest at that tier). Torpedoes might be useful but not that vital since even with those she would deal damage primarily with guns. The lack of guns might be a problem but seeing as Hipper behaves shouldn't be an issue(considering they can arbitrarily buff Rof and/or alpha damage)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
193
[WG-CC]
-Members-
385 posts
4,941 battles

 

At least those ships have torpedoes...

 

I'm thinking the Italian cruiser line will be like the British one.. all Light cruisers with some premium heavy crusers. Italy had some kick-a$$ light cruisers during WWII.

 

 

Geez, I will take any Italian ship at this point. Just give me something in game so I can start working on captains for them.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
11,668 posts

 

 

Stretching the Italian light cruisers all the way to Tier 7, meaning Raimondo on Tier 5, Aosta or Savoia on Tier 6, Abruzzi on Tier 7, then straight to Zara, solves one problem --- below the Zara class, Italian heavy cruisers like the Trento have crap armor.  The Abruzzi would have more survivability than the Trento at Tier 7, the Trento only having 60mm, which is less armor than the Duca d'Aosta.

 

The problem is whether the Aosta can hold on to Tier 6.  Her armor seems weak.

 

You can of course, throw the Zara down to Tier 7, Trento at Tier 6.  Trying to juggle the light and the heavy cruisers together, but it seems there is going to be overlap, some will have to be thrown out and put into premium territory.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
1,879 posts
21 battles

Trento has 70 mm which is marginally worse than other counterparts, plus the French has even crappier armor excluding La Galissoniere and Algerie. Regardless it's safe to assume that the cruiser line would need a rework in light of the recent arrivals and the arrival of the French

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
288
[NO2BB]
[NO2BB]
Beta Testers
541 posts
11,967 battles

 

I think if OP did the exact same thing except compared New Orleans to Hipper, he'd come to the same conclusion that New Orleans has no place being tier 8...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
344
Members
1,797 posts
7,977 battles

Greetings all,

 

   Today we'll be looking at Italy's heavy cruiser RM Gorizia which was the longest lived of the four Zara class heavy cruisers. It has been suggested that the Zara class cruisers take up the tier 8 spot in the Italian Cruiser tree so we'll run with that and compare her calculated statistics with those of the Admiral Hipper since both ships share some similarities, specifically, they both have a main battery of 8x 8" guns.

 

Cocnlusion: Perhaps the Zara class cruisers have no business being at tier 8... at least not without some major fantasy help from WG. The lack of torpedoes really hurts them. WG can give her more AA guns and artificially buff her ROF and get away with it... but adding torpedoes that didnt exist might be pushing it a bit too far.

 

 

 

Compared to her competition, your calculations paint her in such a poor light that if they released her like that, it would have to be in the USN cruiser tree.  Clearly inferior to Hipper in every meaningful way and, I note, Hipper is a ship that is beloved of certain KM enthusiasts, but not well regarded by the community at large.

Edited by Mahrs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,889
[HINON]
Members
7,797 posts
2,144 battles

Umm...

 

Are you sure you're using the right guns? It's sounds like you're using that of the Trento-class.

 

The AP for any of the Zara sisters should be 4900 after the MV reduction to 900mps, and 5000 if using the original 950 or 960mps.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
1,879 posts
21 battles

 

 

Compared to her competition, your calculations paint her in such a poor light that if they released her like that, it would have to be in the USN cruiser tree.  Clearly inferior to Hipper in every meaningful way and, I note, Hipper is a ship that is beloved of certain KM enthusiasts, but not well regarded by the community at large.

 

To be fair without the German AP buff the alpha damage would be exactly the same rounded(Zara is 4872.117244, Hipper is 4873.77148). For all intents and purposes the guns are are quite similar(Zara has less muzzle velocity but the shell is heavier). Besides Zara is drastically superior in protection which is meaningful(especially at long range)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,889
[HINON]
Members
7,797 posts
2,144 battles

The only things Hipper has a Zara doesn't have is torpedoes, AA (assuming the Zara doesn't see some semi-fictional blend of planned AA upgrades and some more invented ones. For example, the 13.2mm MGs were to be swapped out with 20mm cannons), the damage boost German cruisers get (+1000 for the 203/210mm guns), and better RoF.

 

Gorizia has better penetration, especially if you use the original MV, is faster, has waaayyy better armor, and will also probably boast better turning abilities (not only is she shorter than Hipper, but her length/beam ratio is less, 8.71 vs 9.13).

 

And even the RoF issue is less painful than one might think. Let's take the American tier 8, New Orleans. It gets a RoF increase of 15% over it's historical maximum.

 

Apply that to the Zara class, and you're looking at 4.37 rpm, a 13.73 second firing cycle.

 

That gives them a broadside AP DPM of 171304 with the reduced velocity, and 174800 with the original velocity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,791
[HINON]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
8,856 posts
3,680 battles

Umm...

 

Are you sure you're using the right guns? It's sounds like you're using that of the Trento-class.

 

The AP for any of the Zara sisters should be 4900 after the MV reduction to 900mps, and 5000 if using the original 950 or 960mps.

 

 

I used this page as a resource for the guns.

 

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNIT_8-53_m1927.php

 

These guns were also used on the Bolzano class.. perhaps that's why you're getting them mixed up with the Trento's guns since Bolzano was a modified Trento?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×