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German DD's

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All i can say is with tier 5 and above u guys need to buff these ships. at least look into them.

 

 

Thanks

 

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German Destoryers are amazing but it's not easy mode like some other destoryers have been in the past. (I mean. When it was 20k torpedoes with little chance of spotting). There is a learning curve just like the British Craiser line. It just takes time.

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You havent even played the IX and X, definitively the highlight of the line. They're not so bad, just a higher skill floor                              

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They seem fine to me

That's because they just got introduced and it takes a while for stats to average out. Most people haven't even played them either playing other trees and finishing them or because like most, DDs are nerfed to $h!t and people don't play them because of that. I'm on Z-46 and I have no reason to recommend this line. I rather play my Fletcher or Udaloi over Z-46 at this point. Even Yuugumo is a better gunboat when spec'd right. The firing bloom that kills it, the guns don't pen even the 150mm ones. You think a caliber used on Light Cruisers would be able to do something but nope, and I know they're DDs but Germans DDs feel like they can't take a hit at all. They're not bad, just very underwhelming. Look at reviews from CCs on YouTube, even they find any reason to go down this tree. 

But from the Q&A it sounds like WG is waiting for the final numbers to come in before deciding what to do with them but with more Russian DDs on the horizon (Maybe with rockets?) that might be the final nail in the coffin for German DDs. Shame for a class to be dead on arrival like this but it's what WG gets for nerfing a class before release. GG, WG, you brought this on yourself. 

Edited by Stark23

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"DD's"

seriously, I see this all over the forums: "DD's" "CA's" "BB's"

 

haven't any of you passed elementary school English?  Do you really not know that an apostrophe S makes a possessive?  Do you also say, "I like dog's and cat's?"

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"DD's"

seriously, I see this all over the forums: "DD's" "CA's" "BB's"

 

haven't any of you passed elementary school English?  Do you really not know that an apostrophe S makes a possessive?  Do you also say, "I like dog's and cat's?"

 

Not to nitpick, but judging from the multitude of errors in your post, your "elementary school English" could be considered somewhat suspect as well. 
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Not to nitpick, but judging from the multitude of errors in your post, your "elementary school English" could be considered somewhat suspect as well. 

 

it's one thing to ignore some capitalization and commas to make an internet forum post completely formal, but it's entirely different to be consistently making such a blatant mistake over and over.  It would annoy me less if I didn't see it all the time, and from so many people at that.
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it's one thing to ignore some capitalization and commas to make an internet forum post completely formal, but it's entirely different to be consistently making such a blatant mistake over and over.  It would annoy me less if I didn't see it all the time, and from so many people at that.

 

Nope. If you're going to be a grammar nazi you better not make any mistakes yourself because you will be judged for it just like you judged others.
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Nope. If you're going to be a grammar nazi you better not make any mistakes yourself because you will be judged for it just like you judged others.

 

that's the thing though, they're not mistakes- I know I should have started off this sentence with a capital T, and I know that I should have used a period or a semi-colon after mistakes instead of a dash, and I know I should have just put quotation markers around the word mistakes.  But it's casual talk on an internet forum, so I don't.  It's not the same as regularly typing "you're" when you mean "your" or saying "ship's" when you mean ships in the plural.
Edited by Ju87s

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The T-22 is in a bad spot, definitely. And the Maass is pretty outperformed by its competition and large enough that it needs a 10 point captain with CE to be effective.

 

But the Gaede can do okay with the 150s (CE would help a ton, though!) and the Z-29 is a viable ship with CE and the Concealment Module if you don't try to cap.

 

 

The issue is that starting with the Gaede, you'll consistently run into Belfasts and Fijis hunting you and encounter Bensons, Kievs, Blys, Lo Yangs, and Akizukis at caps.

 

You can't consistently outrun or outfight any of those and they all have better smoke than you.

 

 

Also, the AP on these DDs is such low caliber, so floaty-angled, and so bounce-prone that it's almost useless. German shells on these DDs in general are stupidly floaty and could use a buff.

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Hey

I'm not the worlds greatest DD player but just got a fully upgraded Gaede and having fun with it.  Question:  Should I get the 150mm guns or just stick with the 128mm guns?

I have also read that the 150mm are only good with HE unless very close and broadside, then switch to AP, True?  Is the 150MM reload an issue compared to the nice reload of the 128mm.  Is E.M. Needed, as I find turret rotation kind of slow for my liking?

Also:  I only have a low point capt.(6pt) with P.T., L.S. and SI, what should be the next skill to get (I'm thinking torp boat but without CE, my choice is limited some). Save up for CE or go for TAE, or even BFT since I have the 128's.  Thoughts?

 

Pete

Edited by sasquatch_research

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On 9/13/2017 at 5:45 PM, sasquatch_research said:

Hey

I'm not the worlds greatest DD player but just got a fully upgraded Gaede and having fun with it.  Question:  Should I get the 150mm guns or just stick with the 128mm guns?

I have also read that the 150mm are only good with HE unless very close and broadside, then switch to AP, True?  Is the 150MM reload an issue compared to the nice reload of the 128mm.  Is E.M. Needed, as I find turret rotation kind of slow for my liking?

Also:  I only have a low point capt.(6pt) with P.T., L.S. and SI, what should be the next skill to get (I'm thinking torp boat but without CE, my choice is limited some). Save up for CE or go for TAE, or even BFT since I have the 128's.  Thoughts?

 

Pete

Hey

Any suggestions?  I had a game with my Maass and had fun but lost a surprise battle with another DD due to the fact my guns where so slow to rotate, I never could hit him after the initial shot.  Normally, concealment is needed but I am trying to decide about faster guns since at close range, concealment is meaningless.  Thoughts?

 

Pete

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On 1/13/2017 at 6:13 PM, C4ble said:

All i can say is with tier 5 and above u guys need to buff these ships. at least look into them.

 

 

Thanks

 

Z46 and Z-52 are some of the best knife fighters in the game...actually they are the best. Z-52 has supplanted Khab for highest WR in 10 I believe (unless conq beat both of them). They are unbelievably good. Yesterday in clan battles I fought a Moskva and Gearing that were teamed up against me with no support and over the course of 5 minutes killed both of them. 

 

They have a high skill barrier to entry but extremely high skill ceiling. I've won all but two 1 v 1 knife fights in my Z-52 (I keep track), I win roughly 2/3 of 1 v 2 knife fights, and I've even won one or two 1 v 3 knife fights (really lucky on those to be honest, although skill breeds luck).

 

A few notable victories have been:

  • Killing a Gearing and Khab hiding in Gearing smoke. 
  • While under fire from two moskva's I killed one gearing, launched a torp salvo, died, and nailed the second gearing 30 seconds after the launch during clan wars. 
  • Killed a moskva and gearing in clan wars
  • Killed a minotaur in smoke by staying out of his hydro and keeping him in mine 

 

Those are a few that stick in my head. I've had a lot of other interesting and weird kills with the Z-52, it is a wonderful ship. The AP demolishes and the torps are real sprinters. The advantage of that hydro range is tremendous, torpedo spotting at 4 km is excellent. 

 

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As 1An0maly1 stated the Z-46 and Z-52 are great ships. High skill level to be sure but devastating in the right hands. I've yet to loose a gun fight vs other DD's 1v1. ( other Z's excluded there)

 

The ONLY draw back and thing that needs to be fixed IMO to the line is the full damage from ALL AP. I can give WG Cruiser/Secondary AP doing full damage. But a 460mm Yammy AP is a bit much. IMO they should cut the Full Damage down  to 283mm or less doing full damage. Yes that means the Scharnhorst and  Graf Spee would still do full damage but nothing bigger. Of course that would take a little coding on their part but hey they can do for us for once instead of always doing the money grab with new ships all the time.

 

sasquatch as far as the gun rotation goes, grab the 2 point  Expert Marksman skill it will help alot. Also use the Main Battery Modification 2 if that isn't fast enough turret turn for you. I don't  because I find that the skill is usually enough to allow me to get shots on someone no matter how close we are and how hard we are turning.

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I've played German DDs up the line to T9.  Many ships are worth playing.  While there is considerable praise here for the Z-46 and Z-52, I believe it's overrated -- at least for the former, and most likely the latter.  At upper tiers, radar makes these ships significantly over-matched.  German DDs, which have short gun ranges and 10K torp ranges, can't land shells and torps from outside the radar zone.  Striking the enemy is near impossible; capping is often suicide.  So trying to play hero, while fantasizing about gallant knife fights like ones recalled elsewhere on this thread, is more like playing Don Quixote.  Radar makes these ships about as obsolete as cavalry charging into a machine gun nest.  The result: the best game play is in the lower tiers.  Otherwise, you'll be swimming along the edges most of the match.  And that makes for boring game play.

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Hey

I wish they had slightly better concealment than they do and then slightly longer smoke as it's barely enough to get the job done, especially when compared to some other nations.  Overall, not a bad line and have been having fun.   You do need from T5 to T7 concealment (10pts) and added perks up to around 14-16pts on captain skills to really make them fully useful.  I'm still learning but I like my Maass so far, have not gotten to Z23 yet.  

 

Pete

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Z-23 really is the turd of the line. It's not particularly good at anything.   Going into Z-46/Z-52 will be a real treat for you. They're the best DDs, hands down.  They have a massive tool bag of offensive capabilities. 

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2 hours ago, JochenHeiden said:

Z-23 really is the turd of the line. It's not particularly good at anything.   Going into Z-46/Z-52 will be a real treat for you. They're the best DDs, hands down.  They have a massive tool bag of offensive capabilities. 

Stright up floating blitzkrieg...love those boats. 

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On 12/17/2017 at 9:39 PM, U505_Gunner said:

I've played German DDs up the line to T9.  Many ships are worth playing.  While there is considerable praise here for the Z-46 and Z-52, I believe it's overrated -- at least for the former, and most likely the latter.  At upper tiers, radar makes these ships significantly over-matched.  German DDs, which have short gun ranges and 10K torp ranges, can't land shells and torps from outside the radar zone.  Striking the enemy is near impossible; capping is often suicide.  So trying to play hero, while fantasizing about gallant knife fights like ones recalled elsewhere on this thread, is more like playing Don Quixote.  Radar makes these ships about as obsolete as cavalry charging into a machine gun nest.  The result: the best game play is in the lower tiers.  Otherwise, you'll be swimming along the edges most of the match.  And that makes for boring game play.

Wait, short gun ranges? The Z-52 has the highest base gun range of any destroyer in game. Radar lasts 30 second, 50 seconds maximum. I rarely see games with three or more radars. Game lasts 20 minute max, 13 minutes average. Saying: Radar ruins a dd, when radar can only cover maybe 15-20% of the game time and 10% of the map area at any given time is a hell of a sweeping statement. I have my own personal tactics for dealing with radar.

Personally I do get into the cap fights you dread, and I do win them, and I do survive radar. With survivability you have 22k-ish health. A radar lasts long enough for one, maximum two battleship salvos, and maximum 5 salvos from Moskva or 10+ from des Moines (assuming these ships have the radar module). 

It takes at least three ships shooting well (or a competent minotaur and another cruiser) to kill me in that time frame in my experience. Radar isn't the end of the world, but you can kiss 60% of your health goodbye which is difficult to deal with. I'm not inclined to hand out the tricks of the trade that have let me survive radar, mainly because it took a lot of deaths and a lot of painful games at the hands of those ships for me to figure them out. Practice makes perfect and there are ways to deal with radar and negate most of its effectiveness.

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On 12/17/2017 at 11:39 PM, U505_Gunner said:

I've played German DDs up the line to T9.  Many ships are worth playing.  While there is considerable praise here for the Z-46 and Z-52, I believe it's overrated -- at least for the former, and most likely the latter.  At upper tiers, radar makes these ships significantly over-matched.  German DDs, which have short gun ranges and 10K torp ranges, can't land shells and torps from outside the radar zone.  Striking the enemy is near impossible; capping is often suicide.  So trying to play hero, while fantasizing about gallant knife fights like ones recalled elsewhere on this thread, is more like playing Don Quixote.  Radar makes these ships about as obsolete as cavalry charging into a machine gun nest.  The result: the best game play is in the lower tiers.  Otherwise, you'll be swimming along the edges most of the match.  And that makes for boring game play.

You are so wrong. Z-52 Gun range is 14.5 KM more than enough to stay out of  radar Range. And Capping, Z-52 is the best at it. HYDRO of 5.88 km means that if they can see you pop hydro and smoke then you've got them.You can see them they can't see you. Use AP DO NOT USE HE in a German DD. AP does twice the damage as anyone else's HE. 3-4 salvos and any enemy DD is dead. As far as radar ships spotting you at a Cap, 42 kts in a Z-52 your there quick enough to cap, Kill an Enemy DD and get out b4 any Radar ship get's in range. There are other tricks to survive Radar but not giving those out. The biggest thing for a Z-46 or Z-52 to fear is a Radar equipped Minotaur(or another Z-46/52). But even they can be dealt with.

As far as the "short" torp range well if your don't know how to score hits at 1-2 km beyond your torp range then I'm not going to tell you how. Most of the time any torp shot beyond 8 km is going to miss anyway's unless the target is a potato.

Basically Me and 1An0maly1 have debunked your entire post. I hate to use the old argument but here it is. Learn to play. In this case KM DD's. They are not your IJN Torp boats or russian/American Gun boats but in the right hands by far the best line in game.

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The Z-46/52 look to solve the major problem that the T5-8 KM DDs had:   being severely outmatched by US DDs when capping.

At those levels, the US DDs had several significant advantages:

  1. Better concealment
  2. Significantly better turret rotation
  3. Better turret angles (i.e. more guns to bear on a wider ship angle position)
  4. Better ROF
  5. Better HE damage
  6. Better in-smoke firing concealment

This added up to between a 50% and 75% DPM advantage in a typical capping knife-fight, one which the KM's Hydro and better HP pool simply can't offset.  That's a huge advantage, and results in the US DDs being able to shove off KM DDs very easily. The LoYang and Pan-Asian ones are showing the same dominance.

The mid-tier KM DDs need some sort of a buff to make them more competitive cappers.  I don't think they should be able to beat US DDs consistently, but it would be nice if they could usually hold their own, which they can't now.

 

Ranked battles are showing this now, where the Benson and Kidd and LoYang are totally dominating cap battles and even the Hsienyang is winning consistently against the Z-23.

Edited by EAnybody

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Hey

It would have been interesting to see how the German DD line would have been against it's competitors before they Nerf'd the entire line, pre release.  I doubt there will be any buff's to the German DD line since there seems to be an underlying dislike for all of the German lines in general by Wargaming.

 

Pete

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On ‎1‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 7:16 PM, Stark23 said:

I'm on Z-46 and I have no reason to recommend this line

Then you are definitely doing it wrong, because my Z-46 eats Fletchers for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

On ‎1‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 7:16 PM, Stark23 said:

The firing bloom that kills it, the guns don't pen even the 150mm ones.

Not true; I've gotten citadel hits on cruisers with German AP in Z-46 and Gaede.

On ‎1‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 4:50 PM, Nanostrike said:

the Z-29 is a viable ship

There is no German DD named Z-29; do you mean Z-23?

On ‎1‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 4:50 PM, Nanostrike said:

But the Gaede can do okay with the 150s

IMHO (and ONLY my opinion, mind you) the 150's on Gaede are like the 20K torps on Shimakaze; nothing but noob bait. I run the 128's, use AP a lot, and enjoy the ship more than I expected to. (I also chose the 150's when I first got Gaede; and I also was disappointed and thought of her as an underperformer. When I got her again during North Cape I chose not to upgrade and have never been sorry.) Despite getting an extra gun out of the deal, Gaede with the 150's suffers from an absolute crap ROF for a DD, which means if you miss a shot or two you can fall behind all those other DD's you face in the damage lottery quite quickly when knife-fighting. Add in that the 150's, for heir caliber, are rather underwhelming in their performance, and the 128's are a much more desirable package.

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