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GhostSwordsman

PSA: Don't Commit to Only One Flank. Especially in Standard

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Replay: https://wowreplays.com/Replay/26957

 

Welp folks, here you have it, a shining example of why you don't, along with your team, all go one direction and abandon your base.

 

Now, I've found this to be a rather... controversial topic of conversation among team members. Often times I find players calling to not split up and instead stick together and consolidate numbers. While I can personally see the soundness in that reasoning, the group as a whole needs to be alert and ready to respond to any and every threat, not just the one directly in their sights. Which you very often won't find in randoms, as with this battle I'm sharing.

 

I personally prefer the team always combine into two separate task forces, with one being larger than the other so the chances of both groups being overrun are smaller than if the team was further split up or had an even split. While this may make sense for standard, so a group can either run a pincer move on the opposite flank or just guard the base, it also goes for domination as well. Why? Because if your team is in two distinctly different groups, you can cover more of the map and press two bases instead of one. Consolidating into one big group is nice for defense, and works well to overwhelm and take one base, but what happens when the base has been captured and the enemy holds the other two? In my personal experience, usually the team stagnates at their one base, going into defense mode, when they should rather be pressuring the next closest cap zone and overwhelming it as well.

 

Now for a quick breakdown of the game above. I spawn in on Neighbors and decide to basically head straight out from my spawn location to spot the enemy fleet, knowing the risks I'd be taking if I found a larger force and getting spotted out alone. To my surprise, the first enemy I spotted was heading north. Nothing else in sight, so I pressed on. I had a Nicholas following me, so I felt a bit better if I encountered one of the many enemy destroyers. I then tell my team I was going to get in the enemy base and see if I could force the red team to about face to me(and to stop their point flow). I wasn't planning on staying in it and capping the entire time and fully expected to have to bail out of the base and return later in the game. This didn't happen. Aside from them having one DD AFK, not one other ship, save for a lone DD that took the long way around the south end of the map was on my side(who wasn't spotted until he was close to our base because of the route he took). And to top it all off, only two ships, yes two, responded to their base being captured. A poor stock NM and an Atlanta(which would have been troublesome, had I not had the Nicholas, two BBs, and at least one cruiser tailing behind.

 

In summary, not really a fun game. Sure, I'm happy I won, but really, these types of games are no fun for either team. As you'll see below in the after battle report, not a single other player scored above 500 base exp. And, if the red team had been given a fair fight, they probably would have won, because they were up on points and ships, and they had a DD on our back line near our base.

 

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Edited by GhostSwordsman

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Generally I find something like an 8/4 split to have decent success, especially if the "4" know how to stay alive or at least sell themselves dearly.

 

 

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What players do and say are sometimes NOT the same.  Its just a game and some have a very SHORT attention span.  Some games are great where you travel as a team and at least get to some destination together then split up but sometimes its together then everyone goes into four directions. Oh well. When that happens I always make a turn toward the 'Herd' and see what my plan will be. Going alone almost always gets you into three or four enemy ships which detect you and if you don't turn back your done and deleted.  Been there too many times...lol! 

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If there is no CV, a couple of DDs can do a lot to slow the rush while yelling for help. Everyone else lemming one way. Usually the slow BBs are still near the cap anyway.

 

Hence lemming is very viable tactic...

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Any lemming train needs other people to go elsewhere and play for time and compensate for the train's reluctance to react to developments on the minimap. I rarely follow the lemmings because the team needs a responsible adult and it's not like anyone else is going to volunteer. Consequently:

 

Lemming trains are cancer in Domination. Lemmings tend to go for the safest cap, which is rarely the one in the middle. As a result, once a lemming train forms be prepared to be down a cap and possibly face the entire enemy team alone because all the lemmings will be safe and sound on the far edge of the map. You can often look at the initial deployment 30 seconds into a match and tell with certainty that it will be a defeat.

 

In Standard, I find that lemming trains tend to work a bit better, though it's still very much map dependent. Provided the train doesn't lose its momentum (which is a big if) there's a solid chance that it will collectively fail its way into the enemy cap and ultimately start capping or at least leeching points. If the adults on the team manage to delay the enemy attack on the other side long enough, this is often a hard-won victory right there. The worst case scenario is when two lemming trains meet head-on and at that point whichever one wins is a roll of the dice. This is of course bad news for an above average player because now you can't influence the outcome as much because the fight is elsewhere. This is particularly annoying on Two Brothers.

 

There are better alternatives to lemming trains in both Domination and Standard. El_Judarino mentioned 4/8 above and I think it's a pretty good rule of thumb.

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The problem is not committing to one flank. It's going to one side of the map then sits there.

 

If a team has a definitive numerical advantage in one flank, the team should push ahead and engage enemies in that flank decisively then turn around to kill the other half.

 

It's simply math.

 

12 vs 6, everything else being equal, the 6 will ALWAYS lose. The damage output on both sides are simply too different and favoring the team with more ships.

Edited by NeutralState

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You have to have at least a few compotent people holding your weak flank.

 

Standard battle is my least favorite battle mode as you can pretty much know who is going to win these days once you see the deployment.

 

Most good players do not want to have to be the punching bag for a team that loads one side super heavy, then never pushes. Unless I have a divison that is balanced I no longer have any interest in trying to fight 2v9 on one side of them map, and watch my team sit and snipe behind islands 9v4 simply because they can not look at the mini map and count the red dots. 

 

On the other hand if I am running a division with with a DD I will almost always take my group to the weak side as I know we will have smokes, sonar/radar and spotting and we are going to be able to at least make a reasonable stand.

 

I think as this game evolves more and more you are going to see an increasing amount of lemming trains as the way to win Standard battle is pretty abstract for most people.

 

Ideally, you want to load one side very heavy and kill the enemy and have about 60-70% of your forces that remain push to the enemy cap and the other ships turn back and defend your weak side and simply focus on resetting.

 

Standard battle really comes down to who's weak side does the most work, or lasts the longest.

Edited by Cpt_RickSchwifty

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The problem players have with SB is that they don't understand why someone should pick a side. Lemmings just follow the train instead of considering where their ship excels. I usually wait for scouting and then decide based on my ship. BB fight BB, torp boats can hold weak flank, etc. It's not hard, but this potato playerbase sure does make it look so. Even in Domination, I despise when slow BB abandon their side. It's hilarious seeing a Colorado sail from C to A on North. People don't realize that when you take yourself out of the game that long, you may as well be AFK/bot.

Edited by awildseaking
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The problem is not committing to one flank. It's going to one side of the map then sits there.

 

If a team has a definitive numerical advantage in one flank, the team should push ahead and engage enemies in that flank decisively then turn around to kill the other half.

 

It's simply math.

 

12 vs 6, everything else being equal, the 6 will ALWAYS lose. The damage output on both sides are simply too different and favoring the team with more ships.

 

While this seems the obvious and logical conclusion, since the team numbers are equal a 12v6 on one side, translates to a 12v6 on the other side. So pushing hard will most likely lead to a loss as the faster the heavy flank pushes in, the easier it for the enemy to collapse back to cap and then out number you once you arrive.

 

This is the big problem with standard battle and why it turns into a lemming train or a camp fest. If you don't push at all, and one team does the team pushing generally looses. If both teams push opposite sides, the team pushing the fastest, generally looses. The pushing team is going to often be at a numerical disadvantage, even if they are 12v6 on one side.

 

What ends up happening is that 12v6 turns into an 11v4 and the 4  kite back to base, and then 8-10 of the enemies on the opposite flank turn back to base, while one or two yolos keep pushing preventing your weak side from pushing in. Thus your "strong side" ends up out numbered, in a bad position, and sunk.

 

 

The ideal way to win a standard battle is for your "weak side" to not die and bait the enemy team to push, while your storng side collapses back to base to crush them.

 

Now the best laid plans of mice and men can easily be ruined by a few good citadels which can turn the tide and just create a tsunami for the push on the "strong side" but that is far less likely to occur than a collapse back to base especially since many people will not push if anything is within range. 

Edited by Cpt_RickSchwifty

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Any lemming train needs other people to go elsewhere and play for time and compensate for the train's reluctance to react to developments on the minimap. I rarely follow the lemmings because the team needs a responsible adult and it's not like anyone else is going to volunteer. Consequently:

 

Lemming trains are cancer in Domination. Lemmings tend to go for the safest cap, which is rarely the one in the middle. As a result, once a lemming train forms be prepared to be down a cap and possibly face the entire enemy team alone because all the lemmings will be safe and sound on the far edge of the map. 

 

It's not bad at all if they don't stay at that first cap. I've won plenty of games where we've steamrolled the first cap, and defeated the enemy piecemeal at the next 2. 

 

The best tactics allow for flexibility depending on what the enemy does IMO. The lemming to one cap isn't really flexible, but you've got a 2/3 chance to have superiority at the first cap, then a 1/2 chance for superiority at the next cap.

 

IOW, it's not a horrible tactic, and it has the advantage of being dirt simple. "Cap A, then move through B to C" pretty much covers it with no misunderstanding. (whether teammates cooperate or not is another kettle of fish, and is an issue with ANY tactic)

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tl/dr

 

Lemming trains of death aren't called lemming trains of victory for a reason.

 

Lrn2analyze and put ur [edited]wherevur needed.

 

Yah...like that will ever happen.  I kek sir. 

 

Kek.

Edited by Venom81

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Tuesday night playing two brothers, a fail div of 3 harrass the team into a lemming train to one side(east),I swung back across the map to guard the flank and the our spawn cap as I am fighting to hold off a team that did play, IMO, smart and split sides. I look to the mini map and I have a circle jerk sitting above the cap going in just that circle as the other team has capped 3 and would have had all 4 if it hadn't been what Defence  I managed to provide. I post in chat that was exactly why the lemming train in a fail strat because none of them wanted to push the cap and that had allowed the enemy to take 3 caps while they sat outside of the one cap they went too. Now I assume it was the the fail div that didn't care for someone pointing out their fail that I was chat banned for saying what I just posted. I will ALWAYS rage against the lemming train and refuse to play as part of one. I finally got some help when a DD and another CA came west because the reds sent 2 up the slot. FYI I killed 3  and finished with 84K damage and was 2nd on the boards. Damn I love the Graf Spee

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Is the gist of this to not lemming? 

 

If so I would concur. I've rarely seen that work. 

 

Not necessarily. It's more of a 'pay attention to your surroundings and mini-map', than anything else.

 

I told my team that I initially intended to only stay on their cap for a minute or two. I was attempting to 'force' their ball of ships to collapse in confusion as they tried to decide to push on our weakened flank(remember they were up by at least 3 ships and points), or to return to their base and stop our 4 or 5 ships from capping them out, and to stop their point flow. Because they didn't return to base, outside of the two ships that did, I stayed on the cap and gave my team the win. Had any more than one or two of them been paying attention, the whole group would have about faced and returned to base, giving them the win. They had one DD on our back line near our base, and another one(which was likely the one that started capping out base) that was never spotted. Had they forced our small group to abandon our cap attempt, they would have won by capping us out because we had no way of responding to the threat of our base being capped out.

Edited by GhostSwordsman

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