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AdmrHackett

Gneisenau hull stock vs upgrade

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Going down the German BB line I noticed the reduction of secondaries on the Gneisenau's upgradable hull. At first I thought maybe this will be like the Bayern where the numbers are deceptive and the upgrade is better, but upon closer inspection nope not at all! You lose all those beautiful 105mm and 15cm HE lobbing guns for fewer 128mm pea shooters. I was like "This isn't an upgrade at all!" So who here runs their Gneisenau with the stock hull and a secondary spec'd captain?

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The ruddershift alone is reason enough to upgrade. And the 128mm are not bad secondaries at all, even if there are "less" of them. They preform well.

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The upgraded guns are DP and give a far better AA screen.

 

Read this thread for another opinion on the ship and the grind.

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Once you upgrade to the B hull, you get insane AA and also good secondary damage output.  Those 128mm guns are ferocious.

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I think the 128mm guns have a better overall DPM. Plus, you get more HP, WAY more AA, and a better rudder shift. 

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The 128s are all DP guns, while in the stock configuration, only the 105s were DP.

 

T7 is the tier right when CVs lose their one real weakness - small plane capacity.

 

That boost in AA power makes it worth it.

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Secondary-specced Gnei is nothing to laugh at either. 7.2km range and that RoF is nasty vs. CAs and DDs that linger.

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Secondary-specced Gnei is nothing to laugh at either. 7.2km range and that RoF is nasty vs. CAs and DDs that linger.

 

Just curious, what all goes into that? I only ask because my Gnei has 7.6.

Edited by Skpstr

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Just curious, what all goes into that? I only ask because my Gnei has 7.6.

 

7.6 is with the CQE flag IIRC. 

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One of the down sides you guys may not consider is with less secondaries you have a greater chance of losing them completely. Also the 105/150mm have almost double the fire chance.

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7.6 is with the CQE flag IIRC. 

 

Ok yes, I run that one on all BBs. 

Edited by Skpstr

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I understand how the increased AA and maneuverability may seem appealing, but with the rarity of CVs I don't see it as much of a problem. Plus there are 14 other players on my team I can stick with to provide AA support for me. The steering gears mod helps make the rudder shift adequate too. Although not getting that extra 7300 hp is definitely a bit of a drawback.

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One of the down sides you guys may not consider is with less secondaries you have a greater chance of losing them completely. Also the 105/150mm have almost double the fire chance.

 

True, the fire chance is pretty terrible. I don't know why the 128mm guns have such a bad fire chance. 

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The lower fire chance of the 128s is compensated for by the fact that they don't only shatter on targets like the 105s do, and thus your de facto fire chance is higher since non-pens automatically halve fire chance while maintaining similar rate of fire.  The amount of shells you're throwing out is much higher because of the replacement of those 150mm guns, which aids greatly against light ships that don't have thick-enough armor to shatter those shells.

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The lower fire chance of the 128s is compensated for by the fact that they don't only shatter on targets like the 105s do, and thus your de facto fire chance is higher since non-pens automatically halve fire chance while maintaining similar rate of fire.  The amount of shells you're throwing out is much higher because of the replacement of those 150mm guns, which aids greatly against light ships that don't have thick-enough armor to shatter those shells.

 

105mm guns don't shatter on light armored ships though right? Plus they can still pen the superstructure. Those 15cm guns also have 8% fire chance.

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Only thing about the 128mm secondaries that I don't like is they have a significantly less fire chance than the 150mm or even the 105mm. Why's this? 

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105mm guns don't shatter on light armored ships though right? Plus they can still pen the superstructure. Those 15cm guns also have 8% fire chance.

 

They'll penetrate T7 and lower DDs. T8 and higher DDs have 19mm hulls, which is immune to the 105mm HE.

 

And while some ships have superstructures the 105s can pen, secondary gun AI ALWAYS aims for centre off mass, i.e., at the belt armour.

 

See example here:

 

http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/111185-best-ram-ever/page__p__2708512#entry2708512

 

I was at 1 digit HP for the last kilometre on approach. The only reason I survived long enough to ram was because secondaries always aim for the belt (which they can't pen) and I was too close for them to miss.

 

All damage ever dealt by secondaries is due to the guns missing their target in a very specific way.

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Going from A hull to B hull, you trade in your 7x2 105s, 4x1 150, and 4x2 150s (26 total secondary guns) for:

 

-7300 hitpoints

-4.7 sec buff to your rudder shift speed

-11x2 128mm secondary DP guns (22 total secondary guns)  that has 0.8 km longer reach in the AA role and 

 

You'll do far more damage with that buff to HP and rudder shift with the B hull than those secondaries will ever buy you with the A hull. Best Tier 7 AA with the B hull is just a bonus. You're the only one that thinks going from A hull to B hull is a downgrade in the Gneisenau. 

 

 

 

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Going from A hull to B hull, you trade in your 7x2 105s, 4x1 150, and 4x2 150s (26 total secondary guns) for:

 

-7300 hitpoints

-4.7 sec buff to your rudder shift speed

-11x2 128mm secondary DP guns (22 total secondary guns)  that has 0.8 km longer reach in the AA role and 

 

You'll do far more damage with that buff to HP and rudder shift with the B hull than those secondaries will ever buy you with the A hull. Best Tier 7 AA with the B hull is just a bonus. You're the only one that thinks going from A hull to B hull is a downgrade in the Gneisenau. 

 

 

 

 

I can avoid torps just fine without the faster rudder shift and CV are so rare they're just not a problem for me.

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Rudder shift gives you far more than just dodging torpedoes, you can use them to get your guns on target faster and minimize your exposure to return fire when unmasking your rear turrets. The 7300 hp will let you survive one whole salvo more and let you repair 1k hp more per use of the repair party. The general increase in survivability will let you do way more damage than those secondaries on the A hull ever will. Gimp yourself all you want, but you are not convincing anyone that the Gneisenau A hull is  better than the B hull. 

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Rudder shift gives you far more than just dodging torpedoes, you can use them to get your guns on target faster and minimize your exposure to return fire when unmasking your rear turrets. The 7300 hp will let you survive one whole salvo more and let you repair 1k hp more per use of the repair party. The general increase in survivability will let you do way more damage than those secondaries on the A hull ever will. Gimp yourself all you want, but you are not convincing anyone that the Gneisenau A hull is  better than the B hull. 

 

Planning ahead can solve most of those issues and the stock mobility isn't as bad as you seem to make it out to be. Yes the 7,300 extra hp is a good point, but that aside the upgrade doesn't really have a huge advantage. The stock hull has 2,200 more damage per salvo and you essentially double your fire chance making it stronger for brawling. The upgrade makes for better versatility perhaps, but for a more specialized role I'd argue the stock hull would be a better choice.

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I've just made some calculations and the stock hull has about 66k more dpm then the upgraded hull. Granted this is theoretical dpm were the 105mm guns are the source of most of it. This is also assuming all shots hit using both stock and upgraded hull doing the stated avg. damage.

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I've just made some calculations and the stock hull has about 66k more dpm then the upgraded hull. Granted this is theoretical dpm were the 105mm guns are the source of most of it. This is also assuming all shots hit using both stock and upgraded hull doing the stated avg. damage.

 

66k DPM is negligible. Plus, those puny 105mm guns never penetrate anything below T7 very well. Overall, I would take the B hull just for that, because T7 ships see quite a few T8 DDs, and your 105mm guns will have a hard time doing any damage to them. 

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