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TheGreatBlasto

Try to picture those deck launchers being reloaded with torpedoes

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Imagine you're on an early DD in the midst of a battle.

 

Your tin can is swerving wildly left and right in a desperate attempt to avoid being blown out of the water as it attempts another shot at a BB. The twists and turns are so violent that men are in danger of being knocked overboard. Yet despite all the danger the torp team needs to lift the heavy torps and push them into the launchers.

 

Damn, I have broken out into a cold sweat just thinking about it.

 

 

:amazed:

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I think in reality most DDs didn't even carry reloads of torps. I seem to recall reading that somewhere... 

 

Now imagine /that/ next time someone demands realism. 

 

That said, the deck guns on early DDs and cruisers that are basically just open air field artillery bolted to the deck are scary to think about manning too!

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I think in reality most DDs didn't even carry reloads of torps. I seem to recall reading that somewhere...

 

Now imagine /that/ next time someone demands realism.

 

That said, the deck guns on early DDs and cruisers that are basically just open air field artillery bolted to the deck are scary to think about manning too!

 

HMS Ardent fired 7 salvos of torpedoes at the Scharnhorst in it's last engagement under heavy fire from the Scharnhorst' secondaries. No hits.

 

All hands lost save two, one of which later died.

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If I recall correctly the IJN were the only ones that carried torpedo reloads, if you look at the IJN Cans they have the big box containers and cranes near the launchers.  I believe Hara indicated that Amatsukaze  got off a couple salvos during 13 November night action which must have been absolutely crazy.

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Really? No reloads?

 

I assumed that IRL they'd had one reload and have always been amused by the seeming infinite supply of torps in the game.

 

 

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If I recall correctly the IJN were the only ones that carried torpedo reloads, if you look at the IJN Cans they have the big box containers and cranes near the launchers.  I believe Hara indicated that Amatsukaze  got off a couple salvos during 13 November night action which must have been absolutely crazy.

 

The Minekazes, Mutsukis, and Fubukis had reloads stored on deck and had to be wheeled/craned in.  Took 30min-1 hour on a good day at calm seas.

Starting with the Hatsuharus, their reloading devices could get the job done in 3-5minutes.  Usually took longer to rotate the torpedo launcher into reload position than the actual action of sliding the torpedo in.

Shimakaze had no reloads, but 15 ready torpedoes.

 

These reloaders are ingenious things

 R1s53yY.jpg

 

Most navies (USN, RN, etc) thought the idea of reloading torpedoes at sea was crazy and never looked into it considering how unwieldy it was to reload while in port.

 

 

HMS Ardent fired 7 salvos of torpedoes at the Scharnhorst in it's last engagement under heavy fire from the Scharnhorst' secondaries. No hits.

 

All hands lost save two, one of which later died.

 

  A class destroyers had two quad launchers and no reloads...  I've read these 'salvoes' were likely single shots as dictated per RN destroyer doctrine.

 

Edited by Jinxed_Katajainen

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If DDs had 1 reload they would become useless after the first 5 minute of the game. that's why this game is not supposed to be a realistic simulator.

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If I recall correctly the IJN were the only ones that carried torpedo reloads, if you look at the IJN Cans they have the big box containers and cranes near the launchers.  I believe Hara indicated that Amatsukaze  got off a couple salvos during 13 November night action which must have been absolutely crazy.

 

That is correct. Only the IJN considered the danger of reloading in battle acceptable. For every other nation even if reloads were carried they were only reloaded when out of combat.

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HMS Ardent fired 7 salvos of torpedoes at the Scharnhorst in it's last engagement under heavy fire from the Scharnhorst' secondaries. No hits.

 

All hands lost save two, one of which later died.

 

 

 

 

That's understood to mean 7 individual launches of the 8 torpedoes carried. There's no way she carried 48 extra torpedoes.

 

Imagine you're on an early DD in the midst of a battle.

 

Your tin can is swerving wildly left and right in a desperate attempt to avoid being blown out of the water as it attempts another shot at a BB. The twists and turns are so violent that men are in danger of being knocked overboard. Yet despite all the danger the torp team needs to lift the heavy torps and push them into the launchers.

 

Damn, I have broken out into a cold sweat just thinking about it.

 

 

:amazed:

 

The IJN doctrine was for the ship to retire from the battle line, reload the torps (if they had them), and rejoin the line. The exercise took about 15-20 minutes. Doing it in the heat of battle invites the crew to get killed or wounded by incoming fire. US and Brit DDs didn't carry reloads.

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The IJN doctrine was for the ship to retire from the battle line, reload the torps (if they had them), and rejoin the line. The exercise took about 15-20 minutes. Doing it in the heat of battle invites the crew to get killed or wounded by incoming fire. US and Brit DDs didn't carry reloads.

 

Exactly.  This is where the super long range of the Type 93 "Long Lance" torpedo comes in.  In the IJN interpretation of the Mahanian "Decisive Naval Battle" doctrine, the tactical concept was that IJN DDs and Cruisers would have license to range substantially ahead of the main battleship group, and on contact with the enemy fleet, the leading DDs and Cruiser groups could launch volleys of torps at long range, before gunfire had been initiated.  Bear in mind that the Type 93's effective firing range of ~22km was right at the upper limit of the practical naval gunnery range in the pre-radar era, so it was believed that even if the IJN ships were spotted, the enemy would not be able to effectively respond to these torp launches with gunfire.  The Japanese didn't expect to get many hits from this long-range torp volley; the hope was that the torpedoes would at least disrupt the enemy formation and sow confusion.

 

While this first group of torpedoes was traveling to target (bear in mind that IRL even the relatively speedy Type 93 would take a good 20 minutes to travel ~20km), the IJN cruisers and DDs would initially turn away to break contact and reload their torp tubes, and then turn back and to close the range for a combined gunnery and torp duel, hopefully being able to take advantage disruption in the enemy formation caused by the first wave of torpedoes.

 

Having shorter range torpedo designs and also doctrinal differences which dictated that the DDs and cruisers should remain closer to the main BB group where they were unlikely to have the opportunity to re-load torpedo tubes mid-engagement, the USN did not make torpedo reload capability a priority in their surface ship designs.

 

As it turned out, the pre-war doctrine of both the IJN and the USN was somewhat flawed, and the naval war in the Pacific unfolded in a way neither side anticipated.

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Exactly.  This is where the super long range of the Type 93 "Long Lance" torpedo comes in.  In the IJN interpretation of the Mahanian "Decisive Naval Battle" doctrine, the tactical concept was that IJN DDs and Cruisers would have license to range substantially ahead of the main battleship group, and on contact with the enemy fleet, the leading DDs and Cruiser groups could launch volleys of torps at long range, before gunfire had been initiated.  Bear in mind that the Type 93's effective firing range of ~22km was right at the upper limit of the practical naval gunnery range in the pre-radar era, so it was believed that even if the IJN ships were spotted, the enemy would not be able to effectively respond to these torp launches with gunfire.  The Japanese didn't expect to get many hits from this long-range torp volley; the hope was that the torpedoes would at least disrupt the enemy formation and sow confusion.

 

While this first group of torpedoes was traveling to target (bear in mind that IRL even the relatively speedy Type 93 would take a good 20 minutes to travel ~20km), the IJN cruisers and DDs would initially turn away to break contact and reload their torp tubes, and then turn back and to close the range for a combined gunnery and torp duel, hopefully being able to take advantage disruption in the enemy formation caused by the first wave of torpedoes.

 

Having shorter range torpedo designs and also doctrinal differences which dictated that the DDs and cruisers should remain closer to the main BB group where they were unlikely to have the opportunity to re-load torpedo tubes mid-engagement, the USN did not make torpedo reload capability a priority in their surface ship designs.

 

As it turned out, the pre-war doctrine of both the IJN and the USN was somewhat flawed, and the naval war in the Pacific unfolded in a way neither side anticipated.

 

That pre war doctrine of fire and retire was rarely ever implemented as planned and reloading would often take place in or extremely close to the action, they needed those guns in the fight.

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That pre war doctrine of fire and retire was rarely ever implemented as planned and reloading would often take place in or extremely close to the action, they needed those guns in the fight.

 

Practically speaking, this meant that IJN DDs launched only one set of torps in any given engagement. I've combed resources like the TRoMs on combinedfleet.com for confirmation of an IJN DD firing more than one set of torps during a continuous engagement, and have yet to find it.  Where torp launches are  specified in detail, even with IJN DDs, one salvo of all tubes and then no torps for the rest of the battle seems to be the most common usage.  

 

So maybe carrying a set of torp reloads gave the IJN DDs better tactical endurance in that they could fight one battle, and then reload their tubes and be able to launch torps in another engagement without having to return to port or a tender ship. But in the span of one hot engagement, AFAICT the torp batteries on DDs were pretty much one-and-done for everybody. 

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Practically speaking, this meant that IJN DDs launched only one set of torps in any given engagement. I've combed resources like the TRoMs on combinedfleet.com for confirmation of an IJN DD firing more than one set of torps during a continuous engagement, and have yet to find it.  Where torp launches are  specified in detail, even with IJN DDs, one salvo of all tubes and then no torps for the rest of the battle seems to be the most common usage.  

 

So maybe carrying a set of torp reloads gave the IJN DDs better tactical endurance in that they could fight one battle, and then reload their tubes and be able to launch torps in another engagement without having to return to port or a tender ship. But in the span of one hot engagement, AFAICT the torp batteries on DDs were pretty much one-and-done for everybody. 

 

Seems like IJN DD did use their torp reload during the Battle of Kolombangara.

According to JP wiki (its wiki, so idk how true it is). The engamement started at 23:08, and IJN launched torp 5 mins after the fight started (so around 23:13). after the first salvo launched, IJN Yukikaze, Hamakaze, Kiyonami and Yugure disengage to reload torp and finished reload at 23:36 then they re-engage for a 2nd round fight.

 

If that is true, It is very possible that IJN can reload their torps in less than 10 mins (givin from 23:13 - 23:36, which include the time they spent to disengage)

 

So....its totally make sense for some IJN DD in game (Kagero, yugumo) to get torp reload as an extra consumable like the one on Shiratsuyu and Akizuki ? (as oppose to sharing the same slot with smoke)

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Seems like IJN DD did use their torp reload during the Battle of Kolombangara.

According to JP wiki (its wiki, so idk how true it is). The engamement started at 23:08, and IJN launched torp 5 mins after the fight started (so around 23:13). after the first salvo launched, IJN Yukikaze, Hamakaze, Kiyonami and Yugure disengage to reload torp and finished reload at 23:36 then they re-engage for a 2nd round fight.

 

If that is true, It is very possible that IJN can reload their torps in less than 10 mins (givin from 23:13 - 23:36, which include the time they spent to disengage)

 

Kolombangara does come very close to being a case example of torpedo deployment as envisioned by pre-war IJN doctrine.  One group of IJN DDs fired their loaded set of torpedoes between 0108 and 0114 by the Allied record of the battle (USN and IJN kept records using different time zones, which accounts for the discrepancy with your times), and then turned completely way from the battle, breaking contact entirely.  These IJN destroyers then continued to run at flank speed away from the battle for over 20 minutes until about 0136.  It was during this period, while disengaged and running straight without manuever, that they reloaded.  Then the IJN destroyers turned back to the fight, re-established contact with the Allied force at about 0157, and launched their second set of torps at about 0200 before turning again and running away, this time for good.

 

In total this group of IJN DDs was disengaged from the battle for about 40 minutes.  So it's not an example of reloading torps during a "hot" period of engagement -- while shooting, being shot at, or maneuvering in contact with the enemy -- but it is an example of reloading within the time span of what is considered to be one naval battle in the history books.  Hard to say how long the actual reload took, but you're probably right that they waited at least a couple of minutes after turning away to start the reload procedure.  I think your guess of 10 minutes is probably on the low side, but definitely within the range of possibility.  I have no doubt that in ideal (training drill) conditions, well-trained IJN DD crews could reload the torp tubes in 10 minutes.

 

 So....its totally make sense for some IJN DD in game (Kagero, yugumo) to get torp reload as an extra consumable like the one on Shiratsuyu and Akizuki ? (as oppose to sharing the same slot with smoke)

 

Best not to bring realism arguments into game balance issues; WoWs is an arcade game that draws inspiration from history but in detail at best bears causal resemblance to historical naval tactical combat.  If the game were historically accurate, All DDs except IJN DDs would have only one set of torps per game.  IJN DDs would have two sets but would only be allowed to reload their torps while not maneuvering or being fired upon.  But a single torpedo hit would also usually knock any ship up to CA size competely out of the battle, if not sink it outright.  So while torpedoes would be a very limited ammo weapon, torp hits would be a lot more deadly.

 

I certainly think makes sense for part of the the IJN "flavor" to be strong torpedo armament. Whether this means that some IJN DDs changed so they can carry smoke and the torp reload consumables at the same time is a game balance question.  Many players do seem to feel that the IJN DD lines in could use some buffs so I guess this is one way they could be buffed.  I haven't played the IJN DD lines past T5 yet so I don't feel qualified to offer an opinion on the matter.

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Imagine you're on an early DD in the midst of a battle.

 

Your tin can is swerving wildly left and right in a desperate attempt to avoid being blown out of the water as it attempts another shot at a BB. The twists and turns are so violent that men are in danger of being knocked overboard. Yet despite all the danger the torp team needs to lift the heavy torps and push them into the launchers.

 

Damn, I have broken out into a cold sweat just thinking about it.

 

 

:amazed:

 

Blasto!, How ya doin buddy!

If you think THAT scenario is amusing, imagine what an entire Battleship full of men busily "fixing" her during a full scale naval battle would look like, especially while the ship was still trying to fight!! (LOL!!)

This game is NOTHING like real life, and those expecting it to be are going to be bitterly disappointed.

GL/HF and see you in the game. 07!

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  I think your guess of 10 minutes is probably on the low side, but definitely within the range of possibility.  I have no doubt that in ideal (training drill) conditions, well-trained IJN DD crews could reload the torp tubes in 10 minutes.

 

Under drill/training conditions in calm seas, it's been said the reloader (using the attached motor) takes about 20-30 seconds to reload 4 torpedoes.  Even if the motor is broken and it had to be manhandled with ropes and pulleys, it only took 1-2 minutes.  So from firing the previous salvo, rotating launchers to reload position, reloading, and returning launchers to launch position, it was about 2-3 minutes total for a trained crew under ideal conditions.

For comparison, the Fubukis took about 10-15min to reload one launcher (3 torpedoes) manhandling using block and tackle.

Edited by Jinxed_Katajainen

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Imagine you're on an early DD in the midst of a battle.

 

Your tin can is swerving wildly left and right in a desperate attempt to avoid being blown out of the water as it attempts another shot at a BB. The twists and turns are so violent that men are in danger of being knocked overboard. Yet despite all the danger the torp team needs to lift the heavy torps and push them into the launchers.

 

Damn, I have broken out into a cold sweat just thinking about it.

 

 

:amazed:

 

You do what you had to do, really.  Imagining myself in that situation, it would be more about being focused on completing the task at hand than standing around contemplating my future existence...not like there's anywhere you could be 'safe' on a DD anyways.  That being said, the reload system for IJN DD torpedoes was quite quick(~3 mins on ships with the system implemented).  Other DD generally didn't have reloads, so it's a needless worry.

 

Crew working superstructure and secondaries on large ships also had the same issues when it came to dealing with smaller ones.  Swarms of smaller ships could overwhelm much larger ones, either by sneaking up and torping them(PT boats did this a lot) or just sweeping their decks clean and making secondaries inoperable(a few DD working together could do this to a BB).  In at least one major engagement, DDs got so close to BBs that the secondaries on the BB could not be angled low enough to fire on them.

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Imagine you're on an early DD in the midst of a battle.

 

Your tin can is swerving wildly left and right in a desperate attempt to avoid being blown out of the water as it attempts another shot at a BB. The twists and turns are so violent that men are in danger of being knocked overboard. Yet despite all the danger the torp team needs to lift the heavy torps and push them into the launchers.

 

Damn, I have broken out into a cold sweat just thinking about it.

 

 

:amazed:

 

Now imagine you're on Shiratsuyu and your captain orders you to reload all the tubes in 5 seconds. :P

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Imagine you're on an early DD in the midst of a battle.

 

Your tin can is swerving wildly left and right in a desperate attempt to avoid being blown out of the water as it attempts another shot at a BB. The twists and turns are so violent that men are in danger of being knocked overboard. Yet despite all the danger the torp team needs to lift the heavy torps and push them into the launchers.

 

Damn, I have broken out into a cold sweat just thinking about it.

 

 

:amazed:

 

In theory most Japanese Special Type Destroyers have it rather easy. On all the Destroyers above T6 except for Shimakaze you have a fast reload set behind or in front of each tube. They allowed a single Torpedo to be reloaded in 23 seconds. So in the worst case it takes you ~2 minutes to reload and you are good to go.

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In theory most Japanese Special Type Destroyers have it rather easy. On all the Destroyers above T6 except for Shimakaze you have a fast reload set behind or in front of each tube. They allowed a single Torpedo to be reloaded in 23 seconds. So in the worst case it takes you ~2 minutes to reload and you are good to go.

 

For the IJN, reloading torps isn't the challenging part. The challenging part is reload those torp in a safe condition. Those oxygen torp is so dangerous, if they get hit during reload, its almost sure a huge explosion.

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For the IJN, reloading torps isn't the challenging part. The challenging part is reload those torp in a safe condition. Those oxygen torp is so dangerous, if they get hit during reload, its almost sure a huge explosion.

 

That is the trade off

 

Good speed, range and explosive power against safety while reloading

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Crew working superstructure and secondaries on large ships also had the same issues when it came to dealing with smaller ones.  Swarms of smaller ships could overwhelm much larger ones, either by sneaking up and torping them(PT boats did this a lot) or just sweeping their decks clean and making secondaries inoperable(a few DD working together could do this to a BB).  In at least one major engagement, DDs got so close to BBs that the secondaries on the BB could not be angled low enough to fire on them.

PT boats tend to do very badly against larger ships. They don't do well getting shot at by lots of rapid-fire secondaries.

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