Hatsuharu vs Fubuki - Should Hatsuharu / Fubuki be Tier VI?

[Personator]

I'd like discuss why Fubuki & Hatsuharu are both tier 6 ships, yet Fubuki is clearly better than Hatsuharu by a long shot due to the extra triple launcher torpedo tube. Let's look at the stats.

 

Hatsuharu AA at 3.09km - 89 DPS
Ryuujo TB plane - 1210 HP
89 / 1210 = 7.4% chance of shooting it down

Again, the slightly better concealment doesn't matter in the long run. Sure Hatsuharu can get closer, but will the Hatsu have a higher chance of a guaranteed a hit when she's given only 2 chances at hitting a battleship?

"Thin spreads have higher potential for damage, and widespread have higher potential of getting a hit." ---Yes to the first, no to the second.

If you shoot widespread, this gives your enemy a better chance at maneuvering between your torpedo salvo, causing you to miss.Shooting at a very close range like 6km will give a high potential of hitting your target battleship should he attempt to maneuver between the torpedoes, and will give you a high potential of dealing high damage in one shot. So why fire widespread at 6km?

Furthermore, having 3 different torpedo tubes gives you 3 chances of hitting a battleship - by this, I mean that

Should your battleship player be smart and attempt to randomly maneuver to dodge your incoming salvos, and if you aren't firing all of your torpedoes at the white line but rather spreading your salvo out

then the Fubuki would have a better time attempting this and get more guaranteed hits. Additionally, should you fire only 2 salvos at different points, you will still probably miss as he can then just sail in a straight line calmly between both salvos (I have had this happen enough to make me go REEEEEEEEEEEE)
 

My buff proposal
I think Hatsuharu should get at least 5.5 second reload (like Yuugumo for consistency's sake) and increased range of up to 11km to compensate for the lack of torpedoes.

 

Guns (HE) - 57600
Torpedoes - 77105

Total: 134705

Guns (HE) - 54000

Torpedoes - 115658

Total: 169658

Guns (HE) - 78480

Torpedoes - 77105

155585

 

This way, Hatsu would be closer to being more competitive against Fubuki, plus it would give more merit to the "gunboat" IJN DD line. Furthermore, it would encourage players to actually try out using Hatsuharu as a gunboat as opposed to being a torpedo boat, and then they would make their choice as to whether they will stay on the Shiratsuyu or proceed to Akizuki.

 

Thoughts?

[TenguBlade]

Neither ship needs a buff over the other, at least not on an individual basis: both ships suck about equally.

 

Even when considering only T6, the only buff these two need is the [edited]ing 6km stock torpedoes either removed or buffed to Mutsuki's 8km fish.  The rest of their problems - bad concealment, slow turrets, barely-competitive DPM and fire chance - are representative of the entire IJN DD line and should be fixed along with the rest of their tree-mates rather than on a case-by-case basis.

[Aduial]

Hatsuharu has a much better concealment. That makes all the difference in the world when you're trying to torp someone.

[Umikami]

both ships suck about equally.

 

WoW calls this "balance", while I agree with the definition above.

[centarina]

hatsuharu wasn't a tough grind.  didn't take that many matches and  i thought it was usable (I didn't even bother upgrading hull or torps,  used stock one for the whole grind)       It has enough concealment and enough guns to be usable.  I also had aft, which helped with range of guns.    pretty much ran it like standard US DD with torpedo ambush and stealth gunfire or from smoke.      it was ok for t6 and frankly, I prefer stealthy DD. 

[Aduial]

hatsuharu wasn't a tough grind.  didn't take that many matches and  i thought it was usable (I didn't even bother upgrading hull or torps,  used stock one for the whole grind)       It has enough concealment and enough guns to be usable.  I also had aft, which helped with range of guns.    pretty much ran it like standard US DD with torpedo ambush and stealth gunfire or from smoke.      it was ok for t6 and frankly, I prefer stealthy DD. 

 

I played it back when it was T7, and I still thought it was good. 

[Dodgy_Cookies]

Hatsu looks worse on paper but that minor concealment difference makes a huge difference in games and is the better performer at T6.

 

No way Hatsu is getting buffed as she was the best tech DD and now only behind the Gaede.

 

Fubuki might get some tweaks as she is lagging in performance but with Shinonome performing great currently, it probably will not happen. One extra double turret doesn't account for the huge gap in win rate and damage. So even taking into account the extra turret, Shinonome is what fubuki looks like in fully trained form with a good driver.

 

Until the stats stabilize, I doubt we will see any changes to to T6.

 

High tier IJN DDs need help way before the T6.

[TenguBlade]

Fubuki might get some tweaks as she is lagging in performance but with Shinonome performing great currently, it probably will not happen. One extra double turret doesn't account for the huge gap in win rate and damage. So even taking into account the extra turret, Shinonome is what fubuki looks like in fully trained form with a good driver.

More like Fubuki without having the stat numbers halved by the atrocious stock grind.

[Dodgy_Cookies]

More like Fubuki without having the stat numbers halved by the atrocious stock grind.

 

And CE. Makes a huge difference in how you play the ship.

[RevolutionBlues]

Hatsuharu is garbage. It was garbage at tier VII and it's garbage at tier VI. It should be removed from the game, and the person who designed the in-game model should be sacked. The person who hired the person who designed the in-game model should also be sacked. Furthermore his house and crops should be burned, and the land salted so that nothing may grow. 

[Stampz]

Neither ship needs a buff over the other, at least not on an individual basis: both ships suck about equally.

 

Even when considering only T6, the only buff these two need is the [edited]ing 6km stock torpedoes either removed or buffed to Mutsuki's 8km fish.  The rest of their problems - bad concealment, slow turrets, barely-competitive DPM and fire chance - are representative of the entire IJN DD line and should be fixed along with the rest of their tree-mates rather than on a case-by-case basis.

 

I have to agree that both these ships are horrible stock and thy should come with the Mutsuki's 8km torps standard.

[centarina]

I played hatsu as t7 ship with 10km torps and at t6 ship with stock hull because it wasn't bad,  didn't want to lose a gun and I didn't want to spend 4k xp on torps.   my  stat on t6 hatsu is actually better than t7 hatsu.   you have to play it more like US DD, which I understand is tough for many to be good at if you look at server stat.   but it really isn't that bad a DD for t6.  it is much better than t22 at t5. that one is just garbage.

[horsedoc]

Currently grinding the Hatsu and (after going through the American and USSR DDs) I find myself ready to ditch the entire IJN DD series entirely.   I have yet to enjoy one past tier4.   Was hoping to find the secrets to making it work but seems it just sucks and there isn't a good fix.   Are the other IJN "gunboats" any better or even worth wasting the time on?

 

[BossmanSlim]

I am pretty close to finishing up the Hatsu grind.  I can see no redeeming features in the ship other than the concealment.  The guns suck in every major category and the torpedoes take forever to reload and you only have 2 triple launchers. This ship will be sold once I have finished it. 

 

It needs a turret rotation buff if nothing else or the torpedo reload booster module.

[JojoTheMongol]

I sold the Fubuki and picked up a Hatsu. The Fubuki was made into a complete turd. Its 1.5 knots slower than the Hatsu, but the main kicker is the the 60 more meter turning radius. On something the size of a DD, that's a huge difference. The Fubuki can't dodge incoming fire to save its life. Basically once you are spotted, you better have smoke ready (and you'll be spotted with that detection).

 

I would easily give up a torp launcher for more usable guns, better maneuverability, and concealment. Three things that make the Hatsu superior in my book.

[Jakajan]

This tier 6 hatsu is gold compared to the old T7 Hatsu.

[Stampz]

New Hat > Old Hat

New Fubuki < Old Fubuki

 

Currently the Hatsuharu is better than the Fubuki.

The only advantage the Fubuki has over the Hatsuharu is the more flexible 3x3 torp launchers.

 

I keep my Fubuki around only because this I loved this ship when it was tier 8.

[JojoTheMongol]

I had to sell the Fubuki. Its a shell of its former self. It dropped 2 tiers in the tech tree and hit every nerf branch on the way down.

[dwightlooi]

The opposite is true. I play the Hatsuharu in Ranked. I played the Fubiki before switching to the Hatsu.

Why? Because the first and foremost DUTY of a DD is spot, stay undetected and stay alive. 5.8km detect vs 6.1 km means that a Hatsu can turn and stay undetected when an enemy destroyer shows up whereas a Fubiki generally can't (not in time, most of the time anyway). Also, in order to stay useful to your team you have to be ALIVE. The Hatsu is shorter, turns better, accelerate faster, brake better and goes faster. This is important because Fubikis tend to eat torps by being too sluggish and clumsy to evade when the torps are detected. Also, when detected the Hatsu can pop speed boost, drop smoke and disengage from just about everything. The Fubiki is dead meat once being chased by a Farragut or any other gun boat. Also the Hatsu actually has usable guns -- not great, but usable because they are 25% faster than the Fubiki's guns. At medium range (7~9 km) where the USN gunboats can't hit worth a damn, a Hatsu can hold its own in a gun fight.

With the Fubiki you are giving up first look and the ability to evade effectively. You are giving up the ability to actually fight a gun battle. You become very prone to eating unexpected torps. All that for 3 torps? No thanks.

[Sabot_100]

I notice that currently (last 2 weeks) the Hatsu is doing better than the Fubuki in Win Rate. Damage is about the same. Both have bad survival rates and Hatsu has a slightly higher torp hit rate (but fires fewer torps).

Shinonome is crushing them all.

Stats do change and the Kamakaze sisters demonstrate that identical ships can have different stats.

 

https://na.warships.today/vehicles

 

[dwightlooi]

Shinonome has the same problems the Fubiki has. It simply trades 10km torps for slightly faster 8km torps and two more guns. As I said, the priorities of a DD is to stay alive and SPOT. The Shinonome has the same tendencies to be found and to eat unexpected torps as the Fubiki. The two additional guns help in gun duels a bit, but not as much as one thinks because they fire just as slowly as the Fubiki's.

One way to look at it is that it is not a 300m detection range difference specifically. It is the gap between the 6.6km of the Farragut and the 5.8 of the Hatsu. That 800m and greater maneuverability allows you first look and fast enough turn to stay hidden. The speed allows you to keep the opposing ship(s) from catching you. Meanwhile they are being spotted and (hopefully) rained on by your cruisers and BBs. The Fubiki and Shinonome simply can't do that. And, that gets you murdered. Extra torps and guns don't really matter when you are getting rained on.

[Pete_Darling]

21 hours ago, dwightlooi said:

Fubikis tend to eat torps by being too sluggish and clumsy to evade when the torps are detected

 

I noticed that too. I like the feel of Hatsuharu but both work.  

[dwightlooi]

17 hours ago, Pete_Darling said:

 

I noticed that too. I like the feel of Hatsuharu but both work.  

If you play the Fubiki and/or the Shinonome in Ranked, then Vigilance (+25% detection range for torps) is a must. The problem is that I'll rather not have to take that skill.

After the Standard slew for DDs -- Preventive, Expert Marksman, Basic Fire training and Concealment -- you have 9 points left.

With a Fubiki you'll do Demolition, Vigilance and Survivability.

With a Hatsu you CAN do that, but you also have the option to do Demolition + Inertial fuse + Adrenalin or Demolition + Adv Firing + Adrenalin

Just much more flexible.

[Pete_Darling]

3 hours ago, dwightlooi said:

If you play the Fubiki and/or the Shinonome in Ranked, then Vigilance (+25% detection range for torps) is a must. The problem is that I'll rather not have to take that skill.

After the Standard slew for DDs -- Preventive, Expert Marksman, Basic Fire training and Concealment -- you have 9 points left.

With a Fubiki you'll do Demolition, Vigilance and Survivability.

With a Hatsu you CAN do that, but you also have the option to do Demolition + Inertial fuse + Adrenalin or Demolition + Adv Firing + Adrenalin

Just much more flexible.

 

I agree. I play it with my Hybrid type build that I use in Yugumo and it seems work well. Where Hatsuharu seems to excel over Fubuki is positioning and ability to bait ships without getting wrecked. It's almost like Hatsu is a cross between Anshan and Fubuki.

I wonder if you did a cross between who played IJN in Season 6 and Season 7 I would almost bet that the Akatsuki players are playing Hatsu and Shiratsuyu players are playing Fubuki. 

When it comes to which one is better, I agree with Urpeacekeeper and would really suggest to play the ship you are most comfortable in. 

[dwightlooi]

46 minutes ago, Pete_Darling said:

 

I agree. I play it with my Hybrid type build that I use in Yugumo and it seems work well. Where Hatsuharu seems to excel over Fubuki is positioning and ability to bait ships without getting wrecked. It's almost like Hatsu is a cross between Anshan and Fubuki.

I wonder if you did a cross between who played IJN in Season 6 and Season 7 I would almost bet that the Akatsuki players are playing Hatsu and Shiratsuyu players are playing Fubuki. 

When it comes to which one is better, I agree with Urpeacekeeper and would really suggest to play the ship you are most comfortable in. 

Are you kidding? The reverse is true. The Shira is the stealthier boat. The Shira (in season 6 anyway) also has the ability to sling 16 torps (8+8) with the third slot consumable -- something they nerfed away in the latest update. The Akat... well... simply loses. It is big, it doesn't turn, its detection radius sucks, it has cannot sling more than 9 torps, and yes, it has one more gun... so what? Akat just sucked. I took a Shira into top 5, I didn't see ANY Akats there.

Shira was king in Season 6 in large part because of the 16 torp salvos it put out and its ability to disappear. Speed matters so little with the Belfuck in the that season seeing 8.5 km. Shira got nerfed after that...

Hatsu is a very good DD in Season 7 because of the 5.8km detection range (vs the mid 6s for all the DDs that out guns her) and because there is no radar.