Jump to content
You need to play a total of 5 battles to post in this section.
Lert

Lert's tier 5 experiment

260 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

1,326
[CUTE]
Members
5,202 posts
3,461 battles

 

There's no way to compile that data into a single figure though. I think it's best to count all T7 matches as T7 matches, even if there is only one T7 ship. 

 

Are you trying to say that a match with 5 tier 7 is equal to one with a single tier 7 then? 

If that's the case then perhaps if there is a single tier 5 we can call it a tier 5 match by the same metric?

 

You'll have data but I'm not sure what you're gleaning from it if you aren't counting the proportion of higher tiers in matches.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Supertester
3,005 posts
10,086 battles

As stated previously, I hope you're listing the number of tier 7 ships in the battle. If it's 1 tier 7 DD in the match that hardly makes it a "tier 7 battle" to me anyway and I've been that DD many times.

 

That's the MM spread though. With the way the MM is designed, at least the way it was broken down a long time ago in a stream, you could have that 1 Tier 7, 1 Tier 5 and 10 Tier 6's. 

 

However, add up the actual Tier numbers in any given match per team and they should be almost spot on (within a couple of numbers). Though this wasn't always the case with the true "fail divisions" IE Tier 10 divisioned with a couple of Tier 2 or 3's. Those lower tiers would get uptiered and throw off the MM. 

 

But, back to the Tier 7 topic, 1 Tier 7 in a match with a Tier 5. Why wouldn't that constitute being counted? I'm counting it, just curious on your take.

 

@Lert,

 

I'll PM my results to you when I'm all done, but also for the sake of the thread, I will also update via post a time or two depending on how quickly I get it done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,485
[AXANR]
Members
3,373 posts
17,161 battles

 

Those are good points. These will all be solo battles, but I will note server population when entering the queueueueueue.

 

 

I asked Mouse if she would, and you're welcome to join in as well.

 

I'll track my next 100 tier 5 games if it will help. Need any data besides simply how many top/middle/bottom tier?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Supertester
3,005 posts
10,086 battles

And you CAN put it into a number. Add tiers, divide by 12. Bam. Average tier.

 

Exactly, so you answered your own question. A match with 5 Tier 7's is in fact the same as a match with 1. How a player plays the ship, what "type" of ship, well those are outside variables that the MM doesn't consider. But, boiling it down by just the Tier numbers, yup, they are indeed the same.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,326
[CUTE]
Members
5,202 posts
3,461 battles

Yeah ill put in some tier 5 games as well. I will buy back Nicholas seeing as I did well but only played it through the grind so maybe give the little boat and other whip around along with my new Gremmy.

 

I'll be marking down my average tier faced rather than seeing a single 7, throwing my hands up and saying "ehrmagherd, bottom tiered again!"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,339
Members
7,047 posts
4,534 battles

And you CAN put it into a number. Add tiers, divide by 12. Bam. Average tier.

 

So are you saying collect the average tier instead of the tier bracket? I guess that could work.........But I personally think that it's more useful to know the percentage of each tier bracket than the average tier. The average tier is a lot less clear, because for example, if you have an average tier of 6 it could mean that you could be getting lots of both T5 and T7 ships in your battles, or just a lot of T6 ships, if that makes any sense. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24,407
[HINON]
Supertester
20,092 posts
13,558 battles

And you CAN put it into a number. Add tiers, divide by 12. Bam. Average tier.

 

So if that returns 6, does that mean I had 1 T5, 1 T7 and 10 T6, or 6 T5, 0 T6 and 6 T7?
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Supertester
3,005 posts
10,086 battles

Yeah ill put in some tier 5 games as well. I will buy back Nicholas seeing as I did well but only played it through the grind so maybe give the little boat and other whip around along with my new Gremmy.

 

I'll be marking down my average tier faced rather than seeing a single 7, throwing my hands up and saying "ehrmagherd, bottom tiered again!"

 

lol You don't have to convince me of anything.  I'm only explaining how the MM works. I also haven't ever bought into the "woe is me, I can't do anything as I'm only a Tier 5" nonsense. 

 

In fact, my first game tonight was in my New York, you know, everyone's favorite ship to complain about ("it's too slow", "it's range sucks", "not enough hit points", "it turns like a bath tub", etc.)

 

While my match was a loss, I was bottom tier in a Tier 7 match. Yet I was able to kick out over 72k of damage with some other goodies (on my mobile ATM so I don't have my SS's available). 

 

I've been a firm believer in people making a ships strengths work to their advantage. This game allows that, people just have to be willing to see it. But, you wanted to kind of change how the matches would be tallied and that would be skewing how the MM works altogether.

 

I do like your example though and I'm not joking. lol It sums up some of the conclusions posted on the forums. Which is why I imagine prompted Left to start this. "Proof" 

 

The fact that a bunch of us are trying to help should hopefully bury the myth. /crosses fingers and toes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,326
[CUTE]
Members
5,202 posts
3,461 battles

 

So if that returns 6, does that mean I had 1 T5, 1 T7 and 10 T6, or 6 T5, 0 T6 and 6 T7?

You're right. It's just as flawed as seeing 1 tier 7 and implying you were in a "Tier 7" battle....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24,407
[HINON]
Supertester
20,092 posts
13,558 battles

You're right. It's just as flawed as seeing 1 tier 7 and implying you were in a "Tier 7" battle....

 

If you don't like the way I'm running this, feel free to run your own test and collect your own results in what way you deem fit and leave me to run it my way.
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,326
[CUTE]
Members
5,202 posts
3,461 battles

 

If you don't like the way I'm running this, feel free to run your own test and collect your own results in what way you deem fit.

 

Feel free to keep dodging my question too, Lert. Do you  or do you not consider seeing a single tier 7 then counting that as a tier 7 battle influencing your data in a less than ideal way? If that's the case you could probably conclude that most battles are from an "undertiered" position. Let's discuss this instead of getting butt hurt so we get the best picture here. 

You're going from 0 to bent out of shape here a little too quickly. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,339
Members
7,047 posts
4,534 battles

 

Feel free to keep dodging my question too, Lert. Do you  or do you not consider seeing a single tier 7 then counting that as a tier 7 battle influencing your data in a less than ideal way? If that's the case you could probably conclude that most battles are from an "undertiered" position. Let's discuss this instead of getting butt hurt so we get the best picture here. 

You're going from 0 to bent out of shape here a little too quickly. 

 

He's saying that your proposed data collection methods are not any better, so he'll stick to his original plan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24,407
[HINON]
Supertester
20,092 posts
13,558 battles

People complain about getting T7 battles all the time, without caring whether it's just 1 T7 or 11 T7s. I'm not going to count the average tier in my matches. If you want an experiment with that info collected, do it yourself.

 

Don't just come in here and keep hammering on and on and on about the same thing just because you don't agree with how I'm running this. I'm not going to run this your way, and that's the end of it. There is nothing to 'discuss'.

 

You are now on ignore.

  • Cool 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
478
[-K-]
Beta Testers
2,440 posts
8,653 battles

Had a happy coincidence where I read this thread, then hopped in the T-22 to continue that grind for a couple of games. Both top tier. :happy_cap:

 

I won't be really keeping track as I'm not too far out from getting through the T-22, but I'll keep my eyes on this experiment at least for interest if not for luck.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
325
[WSU]
Members
1,494 posts
10,207 battles

 

Feel free to keep dodging my question too, Lert. Do you  or do you not consider seeing a single tier 7 then counting that as a tier 7 battle influencing your data in a less than ideal way? If that's the case you could probably conclude that most battles are from an "undertiered" position. Let's discuss this instead of getting butt hurt so we get the best picture here. 

You're going from 0 to bent out of shape here a little too quickly. 

 

Maybe because you are TELLING Lert to do significantly more work to answer a question that YOU are interested in.  While your suggestion on a forum thread was fine, multiple follow-ups was rude.  

 

Also you seem to have missed the fact that as soon as there is 1 T6 or higher in the battle you are automatically bottom tier (because of the T4 MM restrictions).  Personally I think that this will answer a lot of questions regarding how the T4 MM restrictions are impacting T5.  

 

A separate, and much more involved data collection/analysis effort would be interesting to look at each tier you play and then collect and average the ships tiers to see which tier ships actually have to fight the most other ships that are at/above/below their tier.  But as I mentioned, that is an entirely different and more time consuming data collection effort.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,326
[CUTE]
Members
5,202 posts
3,461 battles

Ignore away! Guess the hurt was real. Man for someone that Internets as hard as you do that doesn't take much. So much for discussion, lol.

 

All you're going to do with those data points is just confirm that T5 sees more T7 battles, even though we don't have pre-MM change data handy.The way you plan on going about this is just going to confirm what people already believe.

 

You are not on ignore because I'm an adult that can handle a difference in opinion.

 

Edited by Canadatron

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
0
[CSNTF]
Members
5 posts
2,652 battles

I like the idea of this test, but i do see a small issue with it. Now that it has been posted on the fourm, it may cause more players to play tier 5 ships. This may scew the resaults a small amount. We know how Captains like to go lert hunting to add a nice skull to there throne. Just a thought from a nice crispy chip.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,326
[CUTE]
Members
5,202 posts
3,461 battles

 

Maybe because you are TELLING Lert to do significantly more work to answer a question that YOU are interested in. 

 

I'm not TELLING Lert to do a thing. I was only asking if when you see a couple T7 in battle if that truly makes it a tier 7 battle, which under this data collection scheme will obviously result in most battles being T7. I could do that at tier 8 and get the same result currently considering most times there is at least a single 10 in there.

 

I'm going to predict this one right now without all the battles and headaches. Tier 5 sees tier 7 most of the time under the data collection terms laid out for this experiment. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24,407
[HINON]
Supertester
20,092 posts
13,558 battles

I like the idea of this test, but i do see a small issue with it. Now that it has been posted on the fourm, it may cause more players to play tier 5 ships. This may scew the resaults a small amount. We know how Captains like to go lert hunting to add a nice skull to there throne. Just a thought from a nice crispy chip.

 

1) The forumgoing player base is only a small fraction of the total playerbase so even if people do this, the effect on MM will be minimal if any

2) I'm not announcing the times I'm playing T5s

3) Loading up a T5 to collect my skull with is folly when you could load up a T6 or T7 instead

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
0
[CSNTF]
Members
5 posts
2,652 battles

 

1) The forumgoing player base is only a small fragment of the total playerbase

2) I'm not announcing the times I'm playing T5s

3) Loading up a T5 to collect my skull with is folly when you could load up a T6 or T7 instead

 

 

1) The forumgoing player base is only a small fragment of the total playerbase

2) I'm not announcing the times I'm playing T5s

3) Loading up a T5 to collect my skull with is folly when you could load up a T6 or T7 instead

 

Very good points sir, happy hunting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,246 posts

 

That doesn't tell you how many of those battles were bottom tier. 

 

Actually, it sort of does.

 

If I were bottom tier all the time, there's no way in hell I'd have those stats.

 

I had just as many top tier and middle tier games as I did bottom. I'd get a streak of 8 or 9 games at bottom tier that got pretty frustrating, but I get that even at T8, so it makes no difference at all.

 

I had a much, much harder time (and it shows statistically) before the MM change. Hell, I couldn't get a middle tier or top tier game to save my life no matter what I played. It's far, far better now than it ever was before.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26,179
[WG-CC]
WoWS Community Contributors
9,684 posts
8,169 battles

Canadatron, it doesn't matter how many Tier 7s are in a match.  So long as it includes ships form tiers 5 through 7 in any combination, it's a tier 7 match. Yes, even if there's only one, that's still a tier 7 match.  Lert's experiment is purely determine how often he's top tier, bottom tier or simply facing tier 6s. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,994
[V_KNG]
Beta Testers
9,705 posts

Time of the matches/player population are two data points of value if you want to analyze the data. Theory being the lower the population the more MM has to monkey with putting together matches. It's your plan so all I may do is encourage you all to capture that information as well. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24,407
[HINON]
Supertester
20,092 posts
13,558 battles

Time of the matches/player population are two data points of value if you want to analyze the data.

 

You didn't read the entire thread, did you. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×