German BB Hydro and Vigilance changes in 0.6.0

[Aduial]

(Before reading this, please note that I do play German BBs and do not intend to nerf them in any way. I just think that they do not need any buffs.)

 

Currently, German BBs and CAs have a HAS torp detection range of 3.84km, 3.93km, and 4.02km for tiers 8, 9, and 10 respectively. With 0.6.0, the captain skill Vigilance will stack with HAS, whereas right now it does not. While for most ships the Hydro range is low enough even with Vigilance, for German CAs and BBs, the range will be around 5km with this skill, and it will almost be enough to spot for a small fleet. But since CAs are technically supposed to counter DDs, I have no problem with German CAs getting access to very long range hydro. But for German BBs, HAS should be more of a self-defence tool, and should not have the ability to have such a long reach. Therefore, I suggest the range of KM BB HAS to be reduced as listed below:

 

	Before Suggested Change	Base	w/ Vig.	After Suggested Change (-15%)	Base	w/ Vig.
T8		3.84	4.8		3.26	4.08
T9		3.93	4.91		3.34	4.18
T10		4.02	5.03		3.42	4.27

The base range is still longer than that of any any non-KM CA ship, tier for tier. 

 

Thanks for reading.

 

*Edited for massive derp.

[Flametz]

Vigilance, if I recall correctly, only affects torpedo detection range, not ship detection range.

So no, not exactly needed.

[Aduial]

Vigilance, if I recall correctly, only affects torpedo detection range, not ship detection range.

So no, not exactly needed.

 

Derp. Well my point still stands, the range will be too long. Just gotta edit the numbers in the post.

[BlailBlerg]

 

Its teallu frustrating to me that germans have much better hydro than lo yang.  It just really feels like we don't have an eye for balance and giving ahips a role. Hat sounds good.  

 

[TenguBlade]

Hydro on the Grosser Kurfurst and Friedrich Der Grosse doesn't need to be nerfed; the ships have a hard enough time dodging torps with it active.  DDs that are still loitering in smoke while the ships approach with hydro active don't deserve the mercy of survival anyways.  Jingles wasn't entirely wrong in calling it simply a tool to give you time to bend over, tie your shoelaces, then kiss your [edited] goodbye as opposed to simply being caught by surprise.

 

Bismarck's hydro needs either a nerf or has to take up the same slot as the catapult fighter, and that's about it.  Right now it has too many tools to counter DDs given that it's maneuverability isn't markedly worse than same-tier BBs.

[BanditSE1977]

But would BB players waste that many points on a T3 skill? If you look through the new skill tree:

 

https://sea-group.org/?p=1869&lang=en

 

You are going to have to spend more points to get what you have now.Its like the complaints about RPF,players aren't going to waste skill points when they are struggling to rebuild out their captains under the new system.

 

My 11 point Tirpitz captain ( BOS/BFT/EM/HA/AFT )is going to need 15 just to fit it out in the new tree to match the old,and I haven't even got a T5 skill in the old one.

[Aduial]

But would BB players waste that many points on a T3 skill? If you look through the new skill tree:

 

https://sea-group.org/?p=1869&lang=en

 

You are going to have to spend more points to get what you have now.Its like the complaints about RPF,players aren't going to waste skill points when they are struggling to rebuild out their captains under the new system.

 

My 11 point Tirpitz captain ( BOS/BFT/EM/HA/AFT )is going to need 15 just to fit it out in the new tree to match the old,and I haven't even got a T5 skill in the old one.

 

First of all, even without Vigilance the KM BB hydro will be the second best, better than all non-KM cruisers. So it's not like they will have their advantage unfairly taken away. Second, 5km detection for HAS on a BB is ridiculous. HAS on BBs should be for self-defence, not for spotting for half the team. If you think about it, with Vigilance and HAS after 0.6.0, you can have a circle with a diameter of 10km in which all torpedoes will be spotted. 

 

Besides, skills like SI, FP, and BoS can be worked around by using your DRP wisely, and knowing how to spend your HP at the right moments. 

[Molonious]

Nerfing something just for it's *potential* use with a 3pt captain skill in a redesigned unreleased skill tree seems fairly silly at this point. It may prove to be an issue, but may not, and for those not using Vigiliance, would be hard to justify.

[Aduial]

Nerfing something just for it's *potential* use with a 3pt captain skill in a redesigned unreleased skill tree seems fairly silly at this point. It may prove to be an issue, but may not, and for those not using Vigiliance, would be hard to justify.

 

Except that's exactly what happened to the Mogami and Cleveland's turret traverse (well, it was a 2 point skill, but still.). And they still haven't fixed it. 

 

But honestly, giving the KM BBs the same HAS that the KM CAs get was a bad idea in the first place. And buffing it even further with the Vigilance changes would be a bad idea. 

[BanditSE1977]

 

First of all, even without Vigilance the KM BB hydro will be the second best, better than all non-KM cruisers. So it's not like they will have their advantage unfairly taken away. Second, 5km detection for HAS on a BB is ridiculous. HAS on BBs should be for self-defence, not for spotting for half the team. If you think about it, with Vigilance and HAS after 0.6.0, you can have a circle with a diameter of 10km in which all torpedoes will be spotted. 

 

Besides, skills like SI, FP, and BoS can be worked around by using your DRP wisely, and knowing how to spend your HP at the right moments. 

 

Yeah,and if I am going for only one skill at T3 so I can have more at T4 in the new tree,I would still get BFT to help the secondaries which the KM BB are good at.

 

I still see it as a non issue.If you lump it with the RPF skill that is being complained about,that's 2 skills worth 7 points that are better used elsewhere.

 

If it is going to be an issue,just restrict its use like is being done with RPF not being allowed on carriers.

 

 

Oh,do you know if its being talked about on the PT?Be interesting to see the what those testing think in actual use,and if its worth actually using on live?

 

 

 

Except that's exactly what happened to the Mogami and Cleveland's turret traverse (well, it was a 2 point skill, but still.). And they still haven't fixed it. 

 

Is that why Clevelands turret traverse is so slow? I stuck with the stock turret since waiting for the upgraded one to change angle was a pain in the butt!

 

 

 

[Landing_Skipper]

Hydro on the Grosser Kurfurst and Friedrich Der Grosse doesn't need to be nerfed; the ships have a hard enough time dodging torps with it active.  DDs that are still loitering in smoke while the ships approach with hydro active don't deserve the mercy of survival anyways.  Jingles wasn't entirely wrong in calling it simply a tool to give you time to bend over, tie your shoelaces, then kiss your [edited] goodbye as opposed to simply being caught by surprise.

 

Bismarck's hydro needs either a nerf or has to take up the same slot as the catapult fighter, and that's about it.  Right now it has too many tools to counter DDs given that it's maneuverability isn't markedly worse than same-tier BBs.

 

Grosser Kurfurst and Friedrich der Grosser didn't have Hydro initially. It was added to "balance" the ships. Their torpedo belts, especially the small island that is Kurfurst, are ridiculously weak.  IOW they need German hydro. And if either of those ships gets close enough to a DD to use the ship spotting aspect of hydro, they are in a desperate situation. 

 

Do I choose Vigilance over Superintendent for either of these 2 ships or Bismarck?  NO!  While not usually a fan of Superintendent, when it increases the number of Repairs and Hydro it is a necessity. IOW I wouldn't stack the two skills anyway. 

 

Lastly, are you sure that Vigilance doesn't stack on top of hydro already?  I refer you to this thread:

http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/104701-2-questions-about-combining-flags-or-skills/page__fromsearch__1

This easily could be one of those mechanics details that WG just didn't explain before, and I haven't heard anyone screaming about being unable to torp T8-10 KM BBs. Myself included. Launching Fletcher or F3 torps at these ships works just fine. 

 

P..S. If you want to complain about something broken, how about a Tier 9 BB with Atlanta radar and a 90 second cooldown. What?!?!  Now that's just broken. 

[Aduial]

Lastly, are you sure that Vigilance doesn't stack on top of hydro already?  I refer you to this thread:

http://forum.worldof...__fromsearch__1

This easily could be one of those mechanics details that WG just didn't explain before, and I haven't heard anyone screaming about being unable to torp T8-10 KM BBs. Myself included. Launching Fletcher or F3 torps at these ships works just fine. 

 

P..S. If you want to complain about something broken, how about a Tier 9 BB with Atlanta radar and a 90 second cooldown. What?!?!  Now that's just broken. 

I am 100% sure that it does not stack. I have it had confirmed by multiple sources, and I have also confirmed it in the game. 

 

And yes, Missouri is broken but WG will never nerf it because it's a premium.........

[TenguBlade]

Grosser Kurfurst and Friedrich der Grosser didn't have Hydro initially. It was added to "balance" the ships. Their torpedo belts, especially the small island that is Kurfurst, are ridiculously weak.  IOW they need German hydro. And if either of those ships gets close enough to a DD to use the ship spotting aspect of hydro, they are in a desperate situation. 

 

Do I choose Vigilance over Superintendent for either of these 2 ships or Bismarck?  NO!  While not usually a fan of Superintendent, when it increases the number of Repairs and Hydro it is a necessity. IOW I wouldn't stack the two skills anyway. 

 

Lastly, are you sure that Vigilance doesn't stack on top of hydro already?  I refer you to this thread:

http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/104701-2-questions-about-combining-flags-or-skills/page__fromsearch__1

This easily could be one of those mechanics details that WG just didn't explain before, and I haven't heard anyone screaming about being unable to torp T8-10 KM BBs. Myself included. Launching Fletcher or F3 torps at these ships works just fine. 

 

P..S. If you want to complain about something broken, how about a Tier 9 BB with Atlanta radar and a 90 second cooldown. What?!?!  Now that's just broken. 

I never said Bismarck was OP, I said she's too easy to use.  When we're dealing with ships that are usually played by people who are normally of lower skill than us, ease of use, i.e. skill floor, becomes as important if not more compared to skill ceiling.  Of all the T8 BBs I think North Carolina has the highest skill ceiling, and, for that matter, is the all-around most powerful T8 BB, but clearly the average PEBKAC thinks otherwise.

 

On the matter of the Missouri, her radar is the same as Baltimore's, with identical range, duration, and cooldown.  I'd also hardly call that OP; without allied ships to assist you, you'll get one crack at sinking the DD and then he's free to do whatever he wants again.  Even with premium radar, November Foxtrot, and JoAT, you're still looking at a 96-second cooldown.  Without all of the above, you're looking at a 180-second cooldown.  And I'll take Hotel out again before I go for anything but a stealth-build Missouri; none of the Iowa sisters are suited to tanking.

 

You can argue it's really strong if you have allies with you, but, if anything, the German hydro is more OP in that situation, because it's got about 2/3rds of the range, lasts almost 3 times longer, and detects torpedoes to boot.  You also don't have to sacrifice your catapult fighter to use it, and can consequently utilize the extra utility it provides.