Should Stealth Firing REALLY be removed?

[Destroyer_Zeka]

So, coming in 2017, WG has confirmed the eventual removal of stealth firing. They said that the mechanic was never meant to be in the game. However, if that was the case, wouldn't they have removed it back in Closed or Open beta? I know that's not saying much, but hear me out. The way the game is, DDs, at least at the higher tiers, all have the capability of stealth firing. This lets them contribute to their team and at the same time, not put themselves in harms way, dying, and losing credits due to a meh battle performance.

DDs of the USN line and the IJN line as well, and to some extent, VMF line all depend of stealth firing for damage, given how long their torpedoes take to reload at the higher tiers. Sure, there are remedies to the torpedo reload issue, such as "Staggering the Launch" as it is known. This lets you put out spreads of torpedoes in half the time of reload. But ships like Benson, Fletcher, and Gearing all rely on the ability to stealth fire. Fletcher and Gearing even more so considering how large a target they are to hit for a DD. These ships, like all DDs(exept maybe the VMF ones), rely upon stealth for their survival. When you take away their ability to stealth fire, you are effectively taking away what those ships are. Their entire existence will basically be restarted from scratch.

Their ability to shoot from stealth can completely turn the tide of battle; can come back to win from what is looking like a sure loss. And now? How they contribute in battle will change. Everything these ships are will just get thrown out the window. And for what? Just because this mechanic was never MEANT to be in the game doesn't change the fact that it IS in the game. If you're waited this long to change it, when people have grown used to and grown to rely on it, you're basically giving these ships and these players a giant middle finger and saying "Hahaha, sucks to be you! Try playing your favorite ship now!"

As far as stealth firing CAs and CLs are concerned, then yes, do remove that. Ships like Zao that can stealth for 12 203mm HE rounds every 10 seconds or so, uhh yea. THAT is  just plain broken. But DDs, with their lower gun calibers, lower alpha strike and somewhat mediocre fire chance should keep their stealth firing capabilities. If they DO remove their ability so stealth fire, then they're also going to have to give something extra in return to the ships that used to rely on it. Maybe more HP? Better fire chance? Better maneuverability?  

[awiggin]

Wall of text, didn't read...Formatting is your friend. 

 

[Big_Spud]

As long as every ship that was reliant on it to succeed is buffed appropriately, I see no issue.

[VTAdmiral]

It's just another nerf for IJN destroyers. They've been nerfed every patch since CBT and are still occasionally doing damage.

 

Why, one even hit a battleship with one torpedo yesterday.

 

Obviously they need more nerfs.

[ArchMadman]

who wouldn't want to see fireballs rising from the sea to extinguish it's foes

[goldeagle1123]

VMF DDs in no way rely on stealth firing. They're so small and fast that nothing can hit you if you just HE spam from max range, and their flat arcs make landing the shells easy. Plus right now, the VMF DDs are all OP, the Udaloi and Khab being the worst offenders.  They desperately need a nerf. Glad stealth firing is being done away with, silly and unhealthy mechanic.

[Big_Spud]

It's just another nerf for IJN destroyers. They've been nerfed every patch since CBT and are still occasionally doing damage.

 

Why, one even hit a battleship with one torpedo yesterday.

 

Obviously they need more nerfs.

 

Properly rebalanced, I don't see the issue. If anything, this would be a case for unerfing the torpedo detection range and reloads of IJN destroyers.

 

 

On a side note, remember back in CBT when you could see the torpedo launch effect when someone launched a salvo?

 

Whatever happened to that?

[Destroyer_Zeka]

VMF DDs in no way rely on stealth firing. They're so small and fast that nothing can hit you if you just HE spam from max range, and their flat arcs make landing the shells easy. Plus right now, the VMF DDs are all OP, the Udaloi and Khab being the worst offenders.  They desperately need a nerf. Glad stealth firing is being done away with, silly and unhealthy mechanic.

 

I do agree with most of that. They dont need stealth given their playstyle. But I just had them in there because, like all DDs, have stealth to work with, unlike all other classes of ship. They don't really NEEd it, but they have it

[VTAdmiral]

 

Properly rebalanced, I don't see the issue. If anything, this would be a case for unerfing the torpedo detection range and reloads of IJN destroyers.

 

 

On a side note, remember back in CBT when you could see the torpedo launch effect when someone launched a salvo?

 

Whatever happened to that?

 

I don't know what happened to that. I assumed it was still around considering I'm not detected and yet battleships still turn a second later as if in response to me launching torpedoes at them.

 

And when was the last time WG ever buffed a Japanese destroyer? I don't have high hopes for that.

[SluggerJackson]

If you fire your guns in smoke, or from behind smoke you should be lit.  There is no reason that I should be able to see your shells, but not your ship.  I'd rather the smoke give any ship affected by it a 50% chance of being hit by enemy shells.

 

If you fire your guns you should be visible to anyone on the map.  There is no reason why my secondary gunners should be able to lock on to a stealthed target.  You should remain invisible if you only fire your torpedoes.

[Khafni]

I think it depends on how they implement "removing" stealth firing. I read one forum post where the thought was that the initial volley would be "stealthy" but succeeding volleys would give away the DD's (or CA's) position. If the DD fired one volley and waited "x" amount of time then fired another they could remain undiscovered. This would be an acceptable update to the mechanic, IMHO.

[Tryne]

As a frequent and avid player of US DDs,

This scares me quite a bit.

 

My biggest fear is that Wargaming will handle this the same way they handled KGM DDs: Increase the gun bloom to ridiculous levels. This ultimately made me steer completely clear of KGM DDs, here's why

Say you are engaging another destroyer at close range, which is a great strength of US DDs. You are detectable according to your gun bloom for at least another 20 seconds (So instead of 5.8km on my Fletch, I can be seen at 11.something km)

We all know this.

But say that enemy ship you are engaging ducks behind an island, and neither of you have line of sight to the other. Ok, all well and good. I hold my fire. An enemy vessel 11 or so KM away could still detect me, but I am perfectly fine with that range. However, if my bloom was, say, 14km like some of the KGM DDs, this means that once my close-in target has broken LOS, a ship contesting an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT point can still spot me. For 20 seconds. This... this is bad. It forces me to withdraw from the fight for that amount of time, whilst constantly panic-turning to avoid fire.

This is bad for DDs.

 

If WG really hates stealthfiring, ok. Here's my solution:

Make the detectability range when firing EXACTLY the same as the maximum firing range, INCLUDING variables. Meaning a DD WITH AFT and a DD WITHOUT AFT will have different bloom ranges. This allows for a greater diversity of destroyer loadouts AND it removes the "cancerous" stealthfiring. I would also reduce the DURATION of the increased detection range for smaller vessels. BBs do not need any fewer than 20 seconds. Perhaps 10 seconds for DDs? Maybe even 8? Maybe 15 for cruisers? This would help us shy away from bigger guns while still remaining a valuable asset to the team.

 

The state of the game seems to reflect that US DDs aren't really overpowered, nor are a smattering of other ships with stealthfiring ability. Please, do not wreck our favorite ships by increasing the bloom size to ridiculous levels. Some of us need stealth.

[Khafni]

If you fire your guns in smoke, or from behind smoke you should be lit.  There is no reason that I should be able to see your shells, but not your ship.  I'd rather the smoke give any ship affected by it a 50% chance of being hit by enemy shells.

 

If you fire your guns you should be visible to anyone on the map.  There is no reason why my secondary gunners should be able to lock on to a stealthed target.  You should remain invisible if you only fire your torpedoes.

 

Firing from smoke isn't stealth firing. Smoke is a concealment mechanic. The ability to fire from concealment shouldn't be changed. Nothing prevents you from "hitting" a ship in smoke if you aim at where the gunfire is coming from. It is very difficult to do but can be done. The smoke is intended to hide the ship.

 

Do you want to be able to see a ship that is firing over a mountain at you? It is the same principal.

[D_I_P_Scout]

The biggest issue is the ships that have a very large envelope for stealth firing without burning up a smoke consumable.  This does need to be done away with.  I just do not think this is helpful.  I have no problem with the smoke firing as this forces the player to burn a consumable.  If this is done away with then the British line cruiser will be effectively useless  A Minotaur without the smoke availble would never last long in a tier 10 game.  

[D_I_P_Scout]

As a frequent and avid player of US DDs,

This scares me quite a bit.

 

My biggest fear is that Wargaming will handle this the same way they handled KGM DDs: Increase the gun bloom to ridiculous levels. This ultimately made me steer completely clear of KGM DDs, here's why

Say you are engaging another destroyer at close range, which is a great strength of US DDs. You are detectable according to your gun bloom for at least another 20 seconds (So instead of 5.8km on my Fletch, I can be seen at 11.something km)

We all know this.

But say that enemy ship you are engaging ducks behind an island, and neither of you have line of sight to the other. Ok, all well and good. I hold my fire. An enemy vessel 11 or so KM away could still detect me, but I am perfectly fine with that range. However, if my bloom was, say, 14km like some of the KGM DDs, this means that once my close-in target has broken LOS, a ship contesting an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT point can still spot me. For 20 seconds. This... this is bad. It forces me to withdraw from the fight for that amount of time, whilst constantly panic-turning to avoid fire.

This is bad for DDs.

 

If WG really hates stealthfiring, ok. Here's my solution:

Make the detectability range when firing EXACTLY the same as the maximum firing range, INCLUDING variables. Meaning a DD WITH AFT and a DD WITHOUT AFT will have different bloom ranges. This allows for a greater diversity of destroyer loadouts AND it removes the "cancerous" stealthfiring. I would also reduce the DURATION of the increased detection range for smaller vessels. BBs do not need any fewer than 20 seconds. Perhaps 10 seconds for DDs? Maybe even 8? Maybe 15 for cruisers? This would help us shy away from bigger guns while still remaining a valuable asset to the team.

 

The state of the game seems to reflect that US DDs aren't really overpowered, nor are a smattering of other ships with stealthfiring ability. Please, do not wreck our favorite ships by increasing the bloom size to ridiculous levels. Some of us need stealth.

 

This is a good idea to address the issue!

[Junostorm]

Firing over an Island and out of smoke, no issues.  Sitting in open water firing without being seen, I can see doing this once perhaps twice with zero detections, but not salvo after salvo, really your lookouts that near sighted?

[TheKrimzonDemon]

It needs to remain in the game. I foresee DD's vanishing from play if they nerf them like this. After all, they've already done everything BUT remove SF to nerf the DD's due to the cries of BB mainers. The bad DD touched you with its long range torps? Nerf'd range. Then you couldn't avoid the bad DD's torps under 4 km? Nerf'd speed. Then you couldn't see the bad DD when the match started? Nerf'd concealment. Now, you can't see the DD visible to the whole enemy fleet every single second? Let's nerf SF, and take away the last little thing DD's had that could keep them alive and able to help the team.

 

Now, instead, a DD driver gets to spend 15-20 minutes running for his life, wondering why he chose this unrewarding, expensive career path.

 

**I've already stopped playing randoms in tech tree DD's. I have no interest in running for my life, pondering my unwise career choice. I still take Sims and Fujin, they haven't been rendered useless.

[SireneRacker]

If you fire your guns in smoke, or from behind smoke you should be lit.  There is no reason that I should be able to see your shells, but not your ship.  I'd rather the smoke give any ship affected by it a 50% chance of being hit by enemy shells.

 

If you fire your guns you should be visible to anyone on the map.  There is no reason why my secondary gunners should be able to lock on to a stealthed target.  You should remain invisible if you only fire your torpedoes.

 

A good way to get rid of all Destroyers in this game. Would make this game a true World of Battlships

[Madman7]

TLDR.

 

BB drivers will whine for it to be removed 

DD drivers will whine it needs to stay

 

Answer: the one with the most drivers win the whine battle.

[TheKrimzonDemon]

TLDR.

 

BB drivers will whine for it to be removed 

DD drivers will whine it needs to stay

 

Answer: the one with the most drivers win the whine battle.

 

I say let the cruiser drivers decide this.

[Captain_Dilbert]

The idea that a Gearing that is 120M long can fire 5 guns every 3 seconds and can remain undetected at ~10km but a Yamato (at 263m long) is detectable without firing her guns from 19km is just INSANE!  Throw cruisers into the invisifire discussion at it goes from insane to just simply ridiculous.  

 

The thing about DD's is that they are quite difficult to hit when they are at a range of 10+km if they are actively maneuvering, but just like any other ship in the game if they ignore WASD hacks they can be hit at 20km.  So what does this have to do with invisifiring you ask...well if you are in a USN DD firing from 11km and you have ~11 second shell travel time, it is not easy to consistently land your shells on the target....that is unless you can stop your ship and just focus on firing on a slow moving BB...I $uck as a gunboat captain, but even I can light up a Montana from 12km if I can sit broadside and cruise in a straight line at ~20kts.  But without the invisifiring buffer you can no longer cruise at 20kts 12km away because somewhere there is an enemy ship waiting to light you up.

 

So hear are my suggestions:

1) Cruisers should not be allowed to invisifire.  The detection range on all ships firing guns >127MM should immediately go to the max firing range of their guns (but no go beyond that (this would need to compensate for increased range due to spotting aircraft).

2) DD's firing guns < 127MM should have their ROF severely limited (it should be no more than 4 rounds/minute and should be based on gun size rather than the ship...meaning all DD's firing the same gun have the same invisifire rate) if they want to remain undetected.  This could be accomplished by adding an additional invisifire cooldown timer that the player can use to make sure he/she remains undetected.

3) Give back some of the torpedo nerfs to the DDs.

[Tryne]

If you fire your guns in smoke, or from behind smoke you should be lit.  There is no reason that I should be able to see your shells, but not your ship.  I'd rather the smoke give any ship affected by it a 50% chance of being hit by enemy shells.

 

If you fire your guns you should be visible to anyone on the map.  There is no reason why my secondary gunners should be able to lock on to a stealthed target.  You should remain invisible if you only fire your torpedoes.

 

Yikes. I will try to be polite here, but this kind of idea infuriates me a bit.

Destroyers need their stealth to survive. This stealth helps us be a threat to any ship on the map, at any given time, as long as we are undetected. Because we have tiny health pools, and very low alpha damage on our main guns, and VERY unreliable high-alpha weapons in torpedoes, this is the only way we can really support our team. Scout, spot, screen larger ships from enemy destroyers. Lets say your proposal was taken into account. If I engage an enemy destroyer on one side of the map and win by the skin of my teeth, I am now lit for 20 seconds, regardless of line of sight. That means for quite a while the entire enemy team can view my every move and easily deduce my plans. I am no longer useful to my team for the duration of this time.

 

It may not sound like such a big deal, but remember, without stealth, without the ability to threaten enemy capital ships just by virtue of the fact that our position is unclear and our plans are unknown, we LOSE the ability to assist the team.

This includes the destroyers on YOUR team. You may not give them all that much credit, but while the big boys are slinging they're baseball bats at each other, we're often the ones contesting the points and scouting for the fleet. Remove that ability, and you might as well remove destroyers from the game.

[Destroyer_Zeka]

Added a poll

[Czevak]

No.

[goldeagle1123]

Also, wth is that poll. It's a yes/no question, that can do without incredibly biased responses, and eight of them.