Bismarck Overpens against a Roon? Why not, Rune?

[Herr_Reitz]

Granted... I expect over pens on/against any destroyer if I use AP. But cruisers? It never ceases to amaze me how something you believe can be a lie.... FIVE kilometer from a Roon.... broadside... absolutely spot on lead... fire... EIGHT OVERPENS. 

 

I now understand why a lot of BB players fire only HE. The Roon of course survived with minimal damage, launching torps with one succeeding in connecting and killing me. 

 

So now what - fire HE at everything? tia 

[Boomax77]

Um, there aren't many details to go off of here, but I'd say... try aiming lower? The superstructure has little to no armor and can be OP'd even by light cruisers.

[IronWolfV]

Granted... I expect over pens on/against any destroyer if I use AP. But cruisers? It never ceases to amaze me how something you believe can be a lie.... FIVE kilometer from a Roon.... broadside... absolutely spot on lead... fire... EIGHT OVERPENS. 

 

I now understand why a lot of BB players fire only HE. The Roon of course survived with minimal damage, launching torps with one succeeding in connecting and killing me. 

 

So now what - fire HE at everything? tia 

 

Aimed too high more than likely. If you hit the upper belt you can blow right through certain sections and do little to no damage.  Plus at that range, your guns can't depress enough in sniper view to hit the citadel at that range.

[Herr_Reitz]

I typically always aim at or slightly below the waterline.. but granted... I probably aimed high... he may have turned hard at the last second. Still... I figured cruisers were "thick enough" that AP hits would do damage. I'm probably gonna switch to HE on cruisers going forward, as some damage is better than little to no damage. 

 

I was surprised, let me tell you. :-) 

[SergeantHop]

I wouldn't recommend that. It probably just dispersed into the superstructure, but switching to HE will only deprive you of the damage you'd get when it doesn't disperse into the superstructure.

[saagri]

I don't know about the Roon but the beam of the Hipper is 21.3m, the widest part of the ship at waterline. AP fuse time for a BB should be .033 seconds. That means 21.3m/.033s = 645m/s. Any shell with a velocity over that will most likely overpen unless completely stopped by armor. 

[Herr_Reitz]

I wonder... has anyone put together a chart illustrating the proper use of HE / AP against cruisers, as saagri has illustrated? 

 

Its my own fault for not paying more attention... I've seen a lot of Roons more recently... and I seem to be over penning a lot of them... maybe the Roon is just unique in that way? As in, less armor is more armor. 

[Aduial]

Granted... I expect over pens on/against any destroyer if I use AP. But cruisers? It never ceases to amaze me how something you believe can be a lie.... FIVE kilometer from a Roon.... broadside... absolutely spot on lead... fire... EIGHT OVERPENS. 

 

I now understand why a lot of BB players fire only HE. The Roon of course survived with minimal damage, launching torps with one succeeding in connecting and killing me. 

 

So now what - fire HE at everything? tia 

 

It's probably didn't help that you were close. Shell velocity at close range is not effected much by drag, so that shell is just going to pass through the ship if you aim too high.

[saagri]

I wonder... has anyone put together a chart illustrating the proper use of HE / AP against cruisers, as saagri has illustrated? 

 

Its my own fault for not paying more attention... I've seen a lot of Roons more recently... and I seem to be over penning a lot of them... maybe the Roon is just unique in that way? As in, less armor is more armor. 

 

It would be tricky to do since for most of us things like AP fuse time and fuse threshold is not an easy stat to find. In addition the sheer number of ships with different ballistic capabilities will increase the work load.

 

On a side note I too have noticed German Cruisers being hard to citadel at close range. I just attribute it to their citadel armor bouncing the shells up. Probably should examine it further in the training room. 

[saagri]

Also, I can't help but wonder if this is why the NC is such a solid ship. Her slow AP shells will most likely cause a regular pen instead of an overpen. 

 

Fun fact, I just looked up the shell velocity table of the NC with MK. 8 AP and at 4.5km roughly the shell velocity is only 637m/s, slow enough not to overpen.

[Herr_Reitz]

If you do give the training room a shot... can you come back and update the thread? tia :-) 

[saagri]

If you do give the training room a shot... can you come back and update the thread? tia :-) 

 

Won't be able to play the game for half the day. 

[WWWWWWWWWWWVWWWWWWWWWWWW]

One of the features of greman CAs is they don't get cit at ranges under 12km.  You can get normal pens, but many times you will just get overpens when firing at them in a BB.

[saagri]

Found the shell velocity table of the Bismark's guns on navweaps.com.

 

According to the data, at 10km the shell velocity should be 641 m/s.  Extremely close overpenning through a Hipper at least. 

[Estimated_Prophet]

I wouldn't recommend that. It probably just dispersed into the superstructure, but switching to HE will only deprive you of the damage you'd get when it doesn't disperse into the superstructure.

 

You mean like when? Never?

 

So sick to death of talk that battleships should just fire AP against cruisers, no matter what the angle... Maybe if the claimed citadels came more often I would feel differently, but I've seen too many male bovine byproducts hits from battleship guns to ever believe that bilge.

 

So much fun putting an AP broadside from a battleship into the waterline of a cruiser at the ranges people say battleships need to be at and getting nothing but 1k hits.

 

[GrandAdmiral_2016]

M. J. Whitley put a complete set of ballistic cuvres for AP rounds of different calibres and weights in his trllogy on German ships. I have the one on capital ships, but not those on cruisers and destroyers. Without a clear picture of the armor arrangement on Roon I would not be positive on overpenning, but it surely is the most likely answer. When running BBs, I tend to fire the first salvo using HE and switch to AP as the range closes. Inside 6 km it makes little difference which type you use against a cruiser as you will impose tons of damage with either. Besides, I like to see'em burn, because they burn us often enough!

[Reymu]

Go to Roon ship in port and toggle the armor-viewer on. Note where the citadel armor is. I've had overpens too from Biz and Nagato despite aiming for the citadel.

 

I can rarely citadel a Russian cruiser unless I aim for the stern. Just have to get used to the quirks. WG isn't remodeling any ships' armor anytime soon.

[SeaRaptor]

So sick to death of talk that battleships should just fire AP against cruisers, no matter what the angle... 

 

Given that I have taken 20k+ directly through the stern before - as recently as yesterday in Atlanta - this seems like good advice.  

 

When you play a battleship, you don't come up big every time you fire your guns, you know.

[Peregrinas]

Go to Roon ship in port and toggle the armor-viewer on. Note where the citadel armor is. I've had overpens too from Biz and Nagato despite aiming for the citadel.

 

I can rarely citadel a Russian cruiser unless I aim for the stern. Just have to get used to the quirks. WG isn't remodeling any ships' armor anytime soon.

 

The one ship that truly annoys me is the Zao. My Hindenburg barely does an meaningful damage with AP at a broadside Zao if I aim at the waterline. This gives me citadels against every other cruiser but not the Zao. But if I aim above the belt and into its superstructure where the secondary guns are, then I get citadels. But I look at the armor model of the Zao and the citadel is nowhere near!

[Reymu]

 

The one ship that truly annoys me is the Zao. My Hindenburg barely does an meaningful damage with AP at a broadside Zao if I aim at the waterline. This gives me citadels against every other cruiser but not the Zao. But if I aim above the belt and into its superstructure where the secondary guns are, then I get citadels. But I look at the armor model of the Zao and the citadel is nowhere near!

 

Plunging fire to citadel this ship? Or is its armor stopping you? The rounds do slow down if they hit the water before the ship.

[SCygnus]

BB drivers who never fire HE are removing a valuable tool from their kit.  If you're facing a ship that just won't get a pen, or won't stop bouncing your AP, try an HE salvo.  See what happens.  Just don't sit there and spam it though.

[Estimated_Prophet]

Given that I have taken 20k+ directly through the stern before - as recently as yesterday in Atlanta - this seems like good advice.  

 

When you play a battleship, you don't come up big every time you fire your guns, you know.

 

I don't expect to; I also don't expect to get garbage for damage when several shells from a salvo land in what should be the citadel of a broadside cruiser (between the fore/aft turrets..) at less than 10k.

 

In nearly 7k games, I've never witnessed anything that makes me believe battleship AP is as wonderful as it's claimed to be.

 

[1nv4d3rZ1m]

It's funny that this thread is on the front page along side a thread where people claim that Bbs just have to look at CAs funny and they sink.

[Aduial]

 

I don't expect to; I also don't expect to get garbage for damage when several shells from a salvo land in what should be the citadel of a broadside cruiser (between the fore/aft turrets..) at less than 10k.

 

In nearly 7k games, I've never witnessed anything that makes me believe battleship AP is as wonderful as it's claimed to be.

 

 

HE damage is going to be just as bad as overpen damage, so what's the point of switching? You might as well use AP all the time against cruisers. 

[Peregrinas]

 

Plunging fire to citadel this ship? Or is its armor stopping you? The rounds do slow down if they hit the water before the ship.

 

I only really know at short range (at about or less than 10km). My AP tends to frequently non-pen a Zao's belt armor even with zero angling, and some shells will find a lucky penetration but never a citadel if I aim at the waterline (which as I said previously would give me citadels against any other cruiser). But even at 10km, if I aim for the secondary guns, that's when I get citadel hits against the Zao. Still, Zao is the tankiest cruiser in the game and punishes its user the least for showing its side. Add some angling and the Zao is nearly impervious to AP.