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TheKrimzonDemon

German DD Concealment

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Ok, we all know by know the devs screwed over the German DD line. However, I know there are those who don't quite understand just how bad it really is.

 

For the purpose of this, I'm going to compare the T6 tech tree DD's.

 

Concealment/Detection:

 

Ernst Gaede:  Base 7.6 Km, having fired main guns, 15.6 Km.

 

Farragut: Base 7.6 Km, having fired main guns, 11.4 Km

 

Fubuki: Base 6.8 Km, having fired main guns, 10.6 Km

 

Hatsuharu: Base 6.7 Km, having fired main guns, 10.5 Km

 

Ognevoi: Base 7.5 Km, having fired main guns, 13.4 Km

 

These ships are all roughly the same size, the same height, the same beam. And yet. Gaede has the highest detection both without firing and with firing. The T5 T22 is the last German DD with base concealment scoring at least a 90. A couple after T5 score 82. Yes, 82.

 

A KM DD, upon firing, is visible to virtually the entire enemy fleet. This is BAD. Worse, a DD's main armament is its torpedoes, and the KM DD's have good ones, except for speed at times. The issue is that the ships detection range is further out than the torpedo range. This means either you ambush every time, you get lucky, or you commit ship suicide. Or, you know, don't use those good torps.

 

I switched Gaede's main guns back to the 128mm, because the 150's were both not making that big a difference, and getting me murdered. With the 128's you get to use AFT, and that extra range is brutally needed, because once the gun bloom fades, you're back to being concealed.

 

A destroyer that has to, in effect, stay 13 Km away from the enemy is absolutely worthless. You didn't spot DD's by their gunfire that far IRL, and it shouldn't be happening in game, either. It's too far away to detect other ships any better than everyone else, and it can't use its torpedoes. The AA is "meh", the speed is "meh", and neither the HE or AP is going to do a lot of damage at 13 Km range, save for starting fires.

 

Concealment, this is virtually the only reason KM DD's are bad. They either perform above or at least equal to all other DD's, except for that one unbelievably important thing. I can only assume that in testing a bunch of BB drivers complained their butts off, because I can see no other reason to have made an entire line of ships utterly useless for their role.

 

I see a bunch of KM DD's T5 and under, I see virtually none T6 and above. Gee, I wonder why that is. /s

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Ok, we all know by know the devs screwed over the German DD line. However, I know there are those who don't quite understand just how bad it really is.

 

For the purpose of this, I'm going to compare the T6 tech tree DD's.

 

Concealment/Detection:

 

Ernst Gaede:  Base 7.6 Km, having fired main guns, 15.6 Km.

 

Farragut: Base 7.6 Km, having fired main guns, 11.4 Km

 

Fubuki: Base 6.8 Km, having fired main guns, 10.6 Km

 

Hatsuharu: Base 6.7 Km, having fired main guns, 10.5 Km

 

Ognevoi: Base 7.5 Km, having fired main guns, 13.4 Km

 

These ships are all roughly the same size, the same height, the same beam. And yet. Gaede has the highest detection both without firing and with firing. The T5 T22 is the last German DD with base concealment scoring at least a 90. A couple after T5 score 82. Yes, 82.

 

A KM DD, upon firing, is visible to virtually the entire enemy fleet. This is BAD. Worse, a DD's main armament is its torpedoes, and the KM DD's have good ones, except for speed at times. The issue is that the ships detection range is further out than the torpedo range. This means either you ambush every time, you get lucky, or you commit ship suicide. Or, you know, don't use those good torps.

 

I switched Gaede's main guns back to the 128mm, because the 150's were both not making that big a difference, and getting me murdered. With the 128's you get to use AFT, and that extra range is brutally needed, because once the gun bloom fades, you're back to being concealed.

 

A destroyer that has to, in effect, stay 13 Km away from the enemy is absolutely worthless. You didn't spot DD's by their gunfire that far IRL, and it shouldn't be happening in game, either. It's too far away to detect other ships any better than everyone else, and it can't use its torpedoes. The AA is "meh", the speed is "meh", and neither the HE or AP is going to do a lot of damage at 13 Km range, save for starting fires.

 

Concealment, this is virtually the only reason KM DD's are bad. They either perform above or at least equal to all other DD's, except for that one unbelievably important thing. I can only assume that in testing a bunch of BB drivers complained their butts off, because I can see no other reason to have made an entire line of ships utterly useless for their role.

 

I see a bunch of KM DD's T5 and under, I see virtually none T6 and above. Gee, I wonder why that is. /s

 

Gotta give people time to learn new playstyles. Ya feathers are ruffled that the KM DDs cant be played the same as the others, but give it time, people will figure out new styles with them. 

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Gotta give people time to learn new playstyles. Ya feathers are ruffled that the KM DDs cant be played the same as the others, but give it time, people will figure out new styles with them. 

 

You completely missed the point. A DD without concealment is a worthless DD. Without concealment, it's just a small, easily deleted cruiser with DD guns.

 

Also, your reply isn't surprising at all, you main BB's, so of course you're pleased with this.

Edited by TheKrimzonDemon
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I am actually kinda with the OP. They shafted the KM DD's hard... and last minute after lifting the NDA and reviews being posted. I love WoWS and the devs are doing great work... but the last minute change with no warning was lower than low. 

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Gotta give people time to learn new playstyles. Ya feathers are ruffled that the KM DDs cant be played the same as the others, but give it time, people will figure out new styles with them. 

And what is he purpose of this new line of DD's? They serve no purpose as they stand. This "give it time, people will figure it out" is [edited]. Feathers have been ruffled because the fire bloom is higher for the KM DD's than for any cruiser in the game. I'm all for different and unique playing ships like the RN CL's, but the KM DD's serve no purpose as the are.

 

They can't push caps, they can't knife fight, they can't stealth torpedo in most cases.

 

I've said it before, they want to remove stealth firing fine. Just hit the other DD lines with the nerf bat too to remove it. Adjust the other nations' fire bloom to be in line with this line.

Edited by jabberwalkie09

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Gotta give people time to learn new playstyles. Ya feathers are ruffled that the KM DDs cant be played the same as the others, but give it time, people will figure out new styles with them. 

 

The bigger issue here is WG nerfing the heck out of them after testing, not holding them for further testing, all of which happened right before release. Players had a skewed idea of what to expect based on what they faced, and what was discussed about them.....

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You completely missed the point. A DD without concealment is a worthless DD. Without concealment, it's just a small, easily deleted cruiser with DD guns.

 

Also, your reply isn't surprising at all, you main BB's, so of course you're pleased with this.

My DDs dont have concealment, they do just fine as DDs. .

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My DDs dont have concealment, they do just fine as DDs. .

 

And I'm betting they aren't as easily detected as the KM DD's.

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You completely missed the point. A DD without concealment is a worthless DD. Without concealment, it's just a small, easily deleted cruiser with DD guns.

 

Also, your reply isn't surprising at all, you main BB's, so of course you're pleased with this.

 

Look you and I usually agree on most things, but this I disagree on. A DD without concealment is not a worthless DD. Take the RU destroyers for example.

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Look you and I usually agree on most things, but this I disagree on. A DD without concealment is not a worthless DD. Take the RU destroyers for example.

The Soviet destroyers have usable and effective guns. The KM DD's guns aren't as effective.

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This has nothing to do with concealment of Tier VI DD's, more to do with allowing German DD's to open water fire without detection.

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Tier 7+ they are.

I strongly disagree. I would put my Fletcher up against my tier 9 KM any day of the week. I'd actually put up any USN or Soviet DD over any of the KM DD's from tier 6 on. Even the Tashkent.

Edited by jabberwalkie09

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I think the intention was sort of that the KM DD's would mainly use their guns in conjunction with smoke screens.  Part of the reason they have sonar is because it can give you increased spotting range on incoming torpedoes so you don't get counter-torpedoed so easily when camping in smoke.

 

Of course, they ships have some other problems, too.  Most notably that the guns are very poor even when you can fire them without being spotted.

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The only time this is really going to be an issue is when knife fighting enemy DDS. If you only had the enemy DDS spotting you and you sink him you'll fall off detection but now it is going to be much easier to be spotted by other enemies while fighting other DDs after one wins. I don't think this will be such a big deal as long as the rest get brought in line or they all meet in the middle somewhere. Stealth firing is the only real thing that gets hit here as it is impossible now and I don't think that's such a bad thing.

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I think the intention was sort of that the KM DD's would mainly use their guns in conjunction with smoke screens.  Part of the reason they have sonar is because it can give you increased spotting range on incoming torpedoes so you don't get counter-torpedoed so easily when camping in smoke.

 

Of course, they ships have some other problems, too.  Most notably that the guns are very poor even when you can fire them without being spotted.

 

If that was the intention, their smoke duration wouldn't be so short.

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Don't know how the gun performs, but the Soviet DDs certainly don't need concealment to perform.  

 

As far as I know, German DDs still have great base concealment and a sonar to work with.

Edited by Georgiarain

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Meh. I had fun in the T6 KM DD using the 150s and I only had at 13 point captain. I would like to see WG adjusting the detection range after firing, but I dont think the KM DDs are as worthless as the OP believes.

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The Devs have made it clear that all DDs are going to lose the ability to "invisi fire" - the problem is that have applied the solution to only the German line of DDs. 

 

The real fun will begin when the other lines are nerfed down to the level of German DDs. This will change the entire meta of the game. 

 

If you are a DD driver of any nation, you need to be paying attention now. If not, these changes are coming to your line SoonTM.

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WG isn't going to buff these destroyers unless two conditions happen.

 

1.  Win rate goes way low.

2.  Player and battle rate goes way low (as in no one is playing them).

 

But so far every German destroyer except for the T-22 is getting a 50%+ win rate.  No. 2 issue though, is another thing.

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I strongly disagree. I would put my Fletcher up against my tier 9 KM any day of the week. I'd actually put up any USN or Soviet DD over any of the KM DD's from tier 6 on. Even the Tashkent.

 

Still does not mean the guns aren't effective.

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If you are not going to use the guns much, it would seem to me the better gun to use would be the 150mm, and try to rely more on using torpedoes.

 

If they are killing stealth firing across all nations, the torpedoes will have to be rebalanced particularly with the Americans and Russians.

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DDs don't need stealth to be deadly anyway. I'd just suck it up and find the playstyle that works with them rather than waste time complaining.

 

Anything that forces DDs to be manly is fine by me. Nobody seems to enjoy fighting a sneak that stealth torps or invisifires anyway, and WG making them difficult or pointless is a buff for the community as a whole, same as when they opted to replace SA with BoS.

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