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soko99

What is wrong with IJN

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So.. This is what's wrong with IJN in 1 simple explanation.

 

2 torps, 2 floods, 2 fires, 30 hits.. and 17k damage..  really? 

IJN Problem.jpg

Edited by soko99

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BBs have these things called "torpedo bulges" which are where the torpedo citadel zones are. The damage you do there is much harder to heal (citadel damage), but it's reduced by upwards of 35% where the bulges on BBs are. The bow and stern don't have the bulges, and you'll roll higher damage, but this damage is more easily repaired by the consumable heal. Alternatively, you were killing a low health ship, or hit a DD. The good news for killing DDs, is that XP and credits are awarded according to the amount of damage done in relation to the total health of the ship you hit meaning killing a full health DD is worth more than killing a half-health BB.

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So, did you use a torp on someone with only a few hundred HP?

 

1 was on an almost dead mutsuki, the other hit a full health cruiser..  but even then.. so 32 hits should get me that amount of damage alone, let alone the fires, floods and 2 torps.  

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BBs have these things called "torpedo bulges" which are where the torpedo citadel zones are. The damage you do there is much harder to heal (citadel damage), but it's reduced by upwards of 35% where the bulges on BBs are. The bow and stern don't have the bulges, and you'll roll higher damage, but this damage is more easily repaired by the consumable heal. Alternatively, you were killing a low health ship, or hit a DD. The good news for killing DDs, is that XP and credits are awarded according to the amount of damage done in relation to the total health of the ship you hit meaning killing a full health DD is worth more than killing a half-health BB.

 

I understand the mechanic.. the issue is that it's so low.  when a full health DD has this much health, how is the ship supposed to be competitive when it barely deals any damage whatsoever.

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How are you using Akatsuki and what build do you have?

 

I went for a more 'all around' build in my Akatsuki, and find myself using the guns very often over torpedoes for damage output(the large detection range helps in deciding the use of guns or torps in any given situation along with the enemy team composition). My current build is: BFT, EM, TAE, SI, and AFT. I've found Akatsuki to be very capable with that build and I usually get decent matches. However, it's still and IJN DD and I've always found them to be wildly inconsistent. While I believe I average a little over twice my HP in damage per game, I still have low damage games among them, it's the nature of the beast that are IJN DDs unfortunately.

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How are you using Akatsuki and what build do you have?

 

I went for a more 'all around' build in my Akatsuki, and find myself using the guns very often over torpedoes for damage output(the large detection range helps in deciding the use of guns or torps in any given situation along with the enemy team composition). My current build is: BFT, EM, TAE, SI, and AFT. I've found Akatsuki to be very capable with that build and I usually get decent matches. However, it's still and IJN DD and I've always found them to be wildly inconsistent. While I believe I average a little over twice my HP in damage per game, I still have low damage games among them, it's the nature of the beast that are IJN DDs unfortunately.

 

I like the boat, but it's just such crapfor damage dealing..  guns barely do 300-400 per hit, and torps are consistently dealing less than 10k damage even though they're supposed to be up to 17k or so. It's fully upgraded and my cap has the SS, LS, TAE, and SI skills.   Lately I'm using it as area denial since torps are too easy to dodge when I go offensive and once detected she might as well just Self destruct.
Edited by soko99

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I'm unsure what your trying to prove here...you had a subpar game in a IJN DD...what's your point?

 

Did you even LOOK at the stats?   It's the discrepancy between damage dealt and the potential. 

 

Guns suppsed to do 1800 and barely deal 300-400 torps supposed to do up to 17k and you're lucky if you get 10k out of a hit.

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Ok, you said you understood the mechanics... apparently you don't, so I'll get started.

 

1800 HE damage is the max possible for an HE citadel hit. When do you see HE citadel hits? For intents and purposes, never, except in low tier matches. This means the highest damage you'll be seeing with HE shells is 33% of max iirc, meaning 600. With the reduction caused by armor thickness, this means your 300-400 damage per 127mm HE shell is NORMAL. Your torp damage is normal as well, as 1-3 things will cut into your torpedo damage iirc.

 

1. The percentage reduction by torpedo bulge/torpedo defense system

2. distance of the torpedo strike from the ship's hitbox (there's empty space between the plating of the bulge and the ship's hull, but this may be represented by the percentage, so take this part with a grain of salt)

3. armor thickness of the bulge and plating behind the bulge (same deal with this, I'm not entirely sure, but I think this has an effect)

 

Your 10k hits with 17k damage torpedos are quite normal. All these low numbers show is... lack of aggression/number of hits I suppose.

 

Hits to the extremities of the hull also do reduced damage, so essentially you'll almost never being your full damage with a torpedo.

Edited by Destroyer_Radford

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1 was on an almost dead mutsuki, the other hit a full health cruiser..  but even then.. so 32 hits should get me that amount of damage alone, let alone the fires, floods and 2 torps.  

 

Post a replay otherwise your stats say you didn't hit the areas of ships that would have maximized damage.

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Ok, you said you understood the mechanics... apparently you don't, so I'll get started.

 

1800 HE damage is the max possible for an HE citadel hit. When do you see HE citadel hits? For intents and purposes, never, except in low tier matches. This means the highest damage you'll be seeing with HE shells is 33% of max iirc, meaning 600. With the reduction caused by armor thickness, this means your 300-400 damage per 127mm HE shell is NORMAL. Your torp damage is normal as well, as 1-3 things will cut into your torpedo damage iirc.

 

1. The percentage reduction by torpedo bulge/torpedo defense system

2. distance of the torpedo strike from the ship's hitbox (there's empty space between the plating of the bulge and the ship's hull, but this may be represented by the percentage, so take this part with a grain of salt)

3. armor thickness of the bulge and plating behind the bulge (same deal with this, I'm not entirely sure, but I think this has an effect)

 

Your 10k hits with 17k damage torpedos are quite normal. All these low numbers show is... lack of aggression/number of hits I suppose.

 

Hits to the extremities of the hull also do reduced damage, so essentially you'll almost never being your full damage with a torpedo.

 

You're right.. THere's ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with the IJN line.. In fact, it's too OP.. let's nerf them more.. 

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For all the faults of the IJN DD lines, they still average much higher damage than what we see here, and the same mechanics which cause these lower damages than advertised effect ALL ships and weapons. The IJN are terribly flawed with their DDs currently, but the damage of their primary weapons isn't the problem, it's their ability to be dodged.

 

If you aren't going to accept an explanation of the mechanics about why damage isn't as advertised, and are just going to make a completely nonsensical jump to "IJN DDs nerfed" (I won't deny they've been beaten black and blue with the nerfbat), then I don't see you accepting other answers from other people very well either.

 

In fact, if you want to only look at damage output, which is what's being argued here, per shell, the IJN DDs have arguably the best or second best performing gun (per shell by damage dealing factors only) among the 5-inch class of DD guns, tied for best damage with USN at 1800, and second best fire chance at 7% (VMF has 8%, USN has 5%, KM 128mm has 5-7%).

 

Unfortunately, the gun handling sucks, but fortunately, their ballistics are forgiving, so you have to be very careful in the gun use, but you can and will rack up stacks of fire ribbons and a steady stream of damage with their guns at long range, preferably from stealth.

Edited by Destroyer_Radford

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For all the faults of the IJN DD lines, they still average much higher damage than what we see here, and the same mechanics which cause these lower damages than advertised effect ALL ships and weapons. The IJN are terribly flawed with their DDs currently, but the damage of their primary weapons isn't the problem, it's their ability to be dodged.

 

If you aren't going to accept an explanation of the mechanics about why damage isn't as advertised, and are just going to make a completely nonsensical jump to "IJN DDs nerfed" (I won't deny they've been beaten black and blue with the nerfbat), then I don't see you accepting other answers from other people very well either.

 

In fact, if you want to only look at damage output, which is what's being argued here, per shell, the IJN DDs have arguably the best or second best performing gun (per shell by damage dealing factors only) among the 5-inch class of DD guns, tied for best damage with USN at 1800, and second best fire chance at 7% (VMF has 8%, USN has 5%, KM 128mm has 5-7%).

 

Unfortunately, the gun handling sucks, but fortunately, their ballistics are forgiving, so you have to be very careful in the gun use, but you can and will rack up stacks of fire ribbons and a steady stream of damage with their guns at long range, preferably from stealth.

 

I was merely trying to point out that they're really [edited] up in their current iteration and was looking for some support in it so that PERHAPS if enough people [edited]and moan, WoG will fix them somehow. 

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How are you using Akatsuki and what build do you have?

 

I went for a more 'all around' build in my Akatsuki, and find myself using the guns very often over torpedoes for damage output(the large detection range helps in deciding the use of guns or torps in any given situation along with the enemy team composition). My current build is: BFT, EM, TAE, SI, and AFT. I've found Akatsuki to be very capable with that build and I usually get decent matches. However, it's still and IJN DD and I've always found them to be wildly inconsistent. While I believe I average a little over twice my HP in damage per game, I still have low damage games among them, it's the nature of the beast that are IJN DDs unfortunately.

 

​Pretty much how I play my Akatsuki, though I use a slightly different Captain setup.  She is a great all round Destroyer.

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​Pretty much how I play my Akatsuki, though I use a slightly different Captain setup.  She is a great all round Destroyer.

 

Yep. Though I'd like to see her detection range lowered by a few hundred meters(something where she has no less than a 6.9km detection range with camouflage, not including the CE captain skill), she's still not quite stealthy enough to play just the ninja torp boat roll you might use with Minekaze, Hatsuharu, Mutsuki, and Fubuki. Akatsuki can handle really well in-game if you build her to handle any situation rather than make her a specialist, then I find she does really well and is quite capable. Akatsuki's a solid ship, she just suffers from the wild inconsistency that all IJN DDs experience.

 

 

As for OP, you still got really good exp, and a decent payout for only 17k damage, so I don't really see the issue. You likely walked away making credits and 2300 exp is nothing to laugh at. Are the damage numbers impressive? Not particularly, but I wouldn't count that game as a bad game either.

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I was merely trying to point out that they're really [edited] up in their current iteration and was looking for some support in it so that PERHAPS if enough people [edited]and moan, WoG will fix them somehow. 

 

I don't think the problem is with the IJN DD's at all, but small tweaks to the player can make all the difference in the world.  The only thing "wrong" with IJN DD's is that people still have this idea in their head that they are ONLY torpedo boats and play them almost passively.  They are quite potent aggressive DD's but the skill floor is so high on them that they are hard to get right 100% of the time.  Even I struggle to play them to their max after a long break from their gameplay.  It would probably take me 2 or 3 games to get back into the mode of play for them if I picked them up right now again (busy working on how to play videos for them so probably not a bad idea anyway!)

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Controlled aggression is the name of the game when using IJN DDs, much more so than "HOLD DOWN THE TRIGGER" VMF DDs or knife fighting USN DDs who play stealthy then get serial killer levels of bursty violent. Always be ready to break contact, and watch for distracted enemies.

 

 Oz1Jyo4.jpgQA3pkXt.jpg

IJN guns at all tiers are rather good for making strong alpha strikes by DD standards vs other DDs generally, so don't be shy about finishing off an enemy DD you stumble across, especially if they're the only one capable of spotting you.

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stats are not all same though.  for example,   My Sims dmg comes more from DDs compared to bigger ships while my shiratsuyu dmg will be more from bigger ships.   the skill floor and ceiling is bit higher for DD though for sure but there are lot of bad players,     I had match yesterday with 15 torp hit from my kamiR.  (including sinking both redteam DDs with trops and guns) only did 119k total dmg.   meanwhile my best dmg match has been with udaloi at 225k.  or so.

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I don't think the problem is with the IJN DD's at all, but small tweaks to the player can make all the difference in the world.  The only thing "wrong" with IJN DD's is that people still have this idea in their head that they are ONLY torpedo boats and play them almost passively.  They are quite potent aggressive DD's but the skill floor is so high on them that they are hard to get right 100% of the time.  Even I struggle to play them to their max after a long break from their gameplay.  It would probably take me 2 or 3 games to get back into the mode of play for them if I picked them up right now again (busy working on how to play videos for them so probably not a bad idea anyway!)

 

I just find the guns to be really low DPS.. and because you're such a big target and so squishy..  Giving away your position just to get a couple K damage on the enemy with a dozen shots is almost not worth the risk of getting alphad.
Edited by soko99

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I just find the guns to be really low DPS.. and because you're such a big target and so squishy..  Giving away your position just to get a couple K damage on the enemy with a dozen shots is almost not worth the risk of getting alphad.

 

IJN DD alpha strike damage with their guns, combined with the ballistics, means doing things like taking pot shots right before slipping behind an island, or finishing off a wounded DD, are entirely viable. A tiny bit more risky is finishing off cruisers or BBs who's turrets are facing away from you, who you are sure you can finish off with one or two salvos, with smoke ready if things don't work out as planned.

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