Scharnhorst meek Guns .. HE or AP?

[Skyfaller]

Been using this ship for a while now and frankly no matter what I do or try, even in training room, scoring citadel hits even on light cruisers is extraordinarily rare. I do not know if its the horrid sigma value or the shells themselves are trash but its AP rounds are apparently allergic to citadels..even to IJN cruisers flat broadside at less than 6km range.

 

wth?

 

So I went ahead and tried playing like a cruiser not a battleship when it comes to main guns. Switched to HE for anything beyond 4km range, under 4km used AP (unless it was a DD).

 

The damage output spiked to ridiculous levels. I went from ~80k average dmg using AP to hitting 140k.. of course not all of it was HE main gun damage, that includes secondaries (which im fully spec'd on), fires and torpedoes. AP damage in these battles is less than 30k mainly because I only use them at very close range.

 

Upon reading some suggest to use AP and shoot at superstructure I tried a few games like that and the damage was.. meh.

 

Thing is, Scharnhorst HE is horribly underwhelming.. just like its anemic and pathetic AP round.

 

I don't see why WG gave this ship guns that not only have pointless sigma plus anemic damage and poor penetration (non penetrating AP rounds on a freaking flat broadside leander @ 8km? F'ing REALLY??)

 

This ship should be given good penetration rounds with low damage and cruiser-gun like accuracy. Yes, I'm ok with even LOWERING the gun damage further if the damn accuracy/sigma/dispersion/whatever it is, is improved. A BB should live by its AP hitting citadels not by stacking damage with slow ROF guns (compared to cruisers) that do the same damage as cruiser guns and hardly even get a citadel hit.

 

Seriously, cruiser 8 inch guns perform better than this. Its just stupid.

[IronWolfV]

Been using this ship for a while now and frankly no matter what I do or try, even in training room, scoring citadel hits even on light cruisers is extraordinarily rare. I do not know if its the horrid sigma value or the shells themselves are trash but its AP rounds are apparently allergic to citadels..even to IJN cruisers flat broadside at less than 6km range.

 

wth?

 

So I went ahead and tried playing like a cruiser not a battleship when it comes to main guns. Switched to HE for anything beyond 4km range, under 4km used AP (unless it was a DD).

 

 

The damage output spiked to ridiculous levels. I went from ~80k average dmg using AP to hitting 140k.. of course not all of it was HE main gun damage, that includes secondaries (which im fully spec'd on), fires and torpedoes. AP damage in these battles is less than 30k mainly because I only use them at very close range.

 

 

Upon reading some suggest to use AP and shoot at superstructure I tried a few games like that and the damage was.. meh.

 

 

Thing is, Scharnhorst HE is horribly underwhelming.. just like its anemic and pathetic AP round.

 

 

I don't see why WG gave this ship guns that not only have pointless sigma plus anemic damage and poor penetration (non penetrating AP rounds on a freaking flat broadside leander @ 8km? F'ing REALLY??)

 

 

This ship should be given good penetration rounds with low damage and cruiser-gun like accuracy. Yes, I'm ok with even LOWERING the gun damage further if the damn accuracy/sigma/dispersion/whatever it is, is improved. A BB should live by its AP hitting citadels not by stacking damage with slow ROF guns (compared to cruisers) that do the same damage as cruiser guns and hardly even get a citadel hit.

 

 

Seriously, cruiser 8 inch guns perform better than this. Its just stupid.

 

Right concepts, wrong range. Here's how i use the guns.

 

BBs: Over 8km use HE, under AP. Exceptions to the rule are Amagi(can be citadeled at range) and Kongo showing full broadside.

CA: Always AP

DDs: Always HE

 

And if you're bouncing a lot, go to HE, never fails.

[TenguBlade]

Any CA, and any T8- BB, showing a broadside at any range will take AP salvos for sizable damage.  T7- CAs will take penetrations from almost any range at any angle if you hit soft spots.  The exception might be if you're using AP at ranges beyond the innate 19.9km (i.e. with the aid of the spotter plane), since I don't use that myself.

 

The cardinal rule of switching to HE in a battleship is that if you can't penetrate them with AP, reach for it until you can.  Scharnhorst is no exception.

Right concepts, wrong range. Here's how i use the guns.

 

BBs: Over 8km use HE, under AP. Exceptions to the rule are Amagi(can be citadeled at range) and Kongo showing full broadside.

CA: Always AP

DDs: Always HE

 

And if you're bouncing a lot, go to HE, never fails.

You're forgetting the Iowa, which eats cits from the Scharnhorst at upwards of 10km while broadside.

 

T8+ CAs can also bounce your shells by bow-oning.  In such a case you would have to use HE.  I also tend to use HE against the Hipper and Roon unless they're giving me a flat broadside because their light exterior armor means I'm still doing good damage while also wreaking havoc on their combat systems.  Never failed to blow up a German CA's engine and at least 3 AA guns with an HE salvo.

 

Scharnhorst's shells have enough muzzle velocity to retain adequate kinetic energy for underwater normal-pens against DDs at close range.  That strategy works whether they're broadside or bow-on; if they're bow-on, they'll take normal pens anyways.  At range, the steeper angle of approach means it's harder to get a normal pen, but generally it's not worth switching from AP to HE just to snipe a DD at beyond 7km.  I should point out that the reason I feel it's okay to fish for those underwater normal pens instead of switching to HE is because I have Manual Control for Secondaries.

[Doomlock]

 

Right concepts, wrong range. Here's how i use the guns.

 

BBs: Over 8km use HE, under AP. Exceptions to the rule are Amagi(can be citadeled at range) and Kongo showing full broadside.

CA: Always AP

DDs: Always HE

 

And if you're bouncing a lot, go to HE, never fails.

 

Funny, I've mostly ran AP. I've had good success with it, even AP on DD's due to the smaller shell size. Of course I also am extremely aggressive in my Scharn when I play her so my results may be skewed. There's nothing more fun with the Scharn than charging enemies and laugh as they die around you 

[MexicanPanda]

I think I can count the number of times I've fired HE with my Scharnhorst on both hands. I have never had any trouble spamming AP with mine. Sure, I may not delete ships, but smacking them for 10-15k or even 20k with a salvo is nothing to sneeze at. Saying that though, I have gotten citadel hits on an Iowa before and a few on some Tirpitzes, so the rounds can pen and citadel stuff.

 

 

Funny, I've mostly ran AP. I've had good success with it, even AP on DD's due to the smaller shell size. Of course I also am extremely aggressive in my Scharn when I play her so my results may be skewed. There's nothing more fun with the Scharn than charging enemies and laugh as they die around you 

 

This is also the case for me. I have to restrain myself from yelling at Scharnhorst that spend the entire battle outside of torp range. I may do a bit of sniping at the beginning of a battle, but once most of the DDs have been taken out, I charge right up to the enemy and kick them in the face.

[Psycodiver]

I run AP 99% of the time, I just aim higher in the shiny horse when facing tougher ships and I regularly get over 100k damage games

[anonym_uO7eEzhrDxsi]

I'm with several of the posters here, I use AP almost exclusively, even on DDs. On the larger BBs I change the point of aim from water level to upper belt. I don't get the scores that a lot of guys do, but I'm getting there. It just seems to take too long to switch ammo types.

[Estimated_Prophet]

CA: Always AP

 

So, do this all day for male bovine byproducts damage just hoping RNG will give you a citadel?

 

I've had too many cruiser laugh this off and then kill me to ever believe in it.

 

Bow on citadels? That is something else I consider to be a joke. All the AP I've ever fired at bow on battleships and cruisers, I don't believe I've EVER scored a citadel that way.

 

I think I can count the number of times I've fired HE with my Scharnhorst on both hands. I have never had any trouble spamming AP with mine. Sure, I may not delete ships, but smacking them for 10-15k or even 20k with a salvo is nothing to sneeze at. Saying that though, I have gotten citadel hits on an Iowa before and a few on some Tirpitzes, so the rounds can pen and citadel stuff.

 

I run AP 99% of the time, I just aim higher in the shiny horse when facing tougher ships and I regularly get over 100k damage games

 

I'm with several of the posters here, I use AP almost exclusively, even on DDs. On the larger BBs I change the point of aim from water level to upper belt. I don't get the scores that a lot of guys do, but I'm getting there. It just seems to take too long to switch ammo types.

 

Must be nice being players loved by RNG. AP spam resulting in 'awesome' damage scores? It can be said a thousand times; I haven't experienced that; so I don't believe it.

[IronWolfV]

 

Funny, I've mostly ran AP. I've had good success with it, even AP on DD's due to the smaller shell size. Of course I also am extremely aggressive in my Scharn when I play her so my results may be skewed. There's nothing more fun with the Scharn than charging enemies and laugh as they die around you 

 

Oh when I'm up close and personal guns blazing, it's AP all the way. But at longer ranges, I use HE because the AP is unreliable at those ranges.

Any CA, and any T8- BB, showing a broadside at any range will take AP salvos for sizable damage.  T7- CAs will take penetrations from almost any range at any angle if you hit soft spots.  The exception might be if you're using AP at ranges beyond the innate 19.9km (i.e. with the aid of the spotter plane), since I don't use that myself.

 

The cardinal rule of switching to HE in a battleship is that if you can't penetrate them with AP, reach for it until you can.  Scharnhorst is no exception.

You're forgetting the Iowa, which eats cits from the Scharnhorst at upwards of 10km while broadside.

 

T8+ CAs can also bounce your shells by bow-oning.  In such a case you would have to use HE.  I also tend to use HE against the Hipper and Roon unless they're giving me a flat broadside because their light exterior armor means I'm still doing good damage while also wreaking havoc on their combat systems.  Never failed to blow up a German CA's engine and at least 3 AA guns with an HE salvo.

 

Scharnhorst's shells have enough muzzle velocity to retain adequate kinetic energy for underwater normal-pens against DDs at close range.  That strategy works whether they're broadside or bow-on; if they're bow-on, they'll take normal pens anyways.  At range, the steeper angle of approach means it's harder to get a normal pen, but generally it's not worth switching from AP to HE just to snipe a DD at beyond 7km.  I should point out that the reason I feel it's okay to fish for those underwater normal pens instead of switching to HE is because I have Manual Control for Secondaries.

 

Yeah they can bounce going bow, on, but if you aim a tad higher you can punch right through their turrets and conning tower till they come broadside then puppy kick their faces in.

[Skyfaller]

With any other BB or even a heavy cruiser you can consistently citadel an IJN cruiser flat broadside. This ship simply cannot. You see the shells land on its lower citadel area no different than any other ship that does citadel it... but all you get at 2k damage or such low numbers. I've even aimed below waterline, at waterline, above it, etc,etc... against a static mogami/atago/myoko in training room... the citadel hits are so horribly rare and the damage you inflict trying for those citadels makes using HE a much more consistent and reliable damage dealer. Heck sometimes you just end up blowing up the IJN cruiser by chewing its HP with low damage hits over time trying for the citadel.

 

So again, I do not know what is wrong with the guns. Sigma? accuracy? penetration? fuse?

[IronWolfV]

 

So, do this all day for male bovine byproducts damage just hoping RNG will give you a citadel?

 

I've had too many cruiser laugh this off and then kill me to ever believe in it.

 

Bow on citadels? That is something else I consider to be a joke. All the AP I've ever fired at bow on battleships and cruisers, I don't believe I've EVER scored a citadel that way.

 

 

 

 

Must be nice being players loved by RNG. AP spam resulting in 'awesome' damage scores? It can be said a thousand times; I haven't experienced that; so I don't believe it.

 

Don't even need citadels, 30% pens do just fine.

[SunTzu71]

70k damage per game, rarely ever use HE.

[TenguBlade]

With any other BB or even a heavy cruiser you can consistently citadel an IJN cruiser flat broadside. This ship simply cannot. You see the shells land on its lower citadel area no different than any other ship that does citadel it... but all you get at 2k damage or such low numbers. I've even aimed below waterline, at waterline, above it, etc,etc... against a static mogami/atago/myoko in training room... the citadel hits are so horribly rare and the damage you inflict trying for those citadels makes using HE a much more consistent and reliable damage dealer. Heck sometimes you just end up blowing up the IJN cruiser by chewing its HP with low damage hits over time trying for the citadel.

 

So again, I do not know what is wrong with the guns. Sigma? accuracy? penetration? fuse?

Then he's not flat-on broadside.  Your definition of broadside, not the shells, is the problem.

[Skyfaller]

flat 90 degrees side shot what else can a broadside be?

 

[TenguBlade]

flat 90 degrees side shot what else can a broadside be?

You observed your enemy wrong.  Or are you telling me that a player with almost 300 battles, an average damage of 86k, and 67% WR doesn't know how his ship's AP functions as well as you do?

[Skyfaller]

I do know it. Its why I'm telling you that in any other BB and even heavy cruiser 8 inch guns getting citadels is not a problem but THIS ship's guns somehow fail to score citadel hits in the same consistent manner the others do. You trim the target's HP down to zero just trying for that damn citadel strike.

 

Which is why in my first post I mentioned that HE is far more reliable at dealing damage and it trims the target's HP to zero faster than using AP trying for that citadel hit (until you get to point blank range).  

[TenguBlade]

I do know it. Its why I'm telling you that in any other BB and even heavy cruiser 8 inch guns getting citadels is not a problem but THIS ship's guns somehow fail to score citadel hits in the same consistent manner the others do. You trim the target's HP down to zero just trying for that damn citadel strike.

 

Which is why in my first post I mentioned that HE is far more reliable at dealing damage and it trims the target's HP to zero faster than using AP trying for that citadel hit (until you get to point blank range).  

Your arrogance is unbelievable.  You are so caught up in thinking that you are right that you likely won't listen to anyone here anyways, so why bother?

[JochenHeiden]

AP in the Scharnhorst is highly effective.  I've gotten citadels against Colorados, North Carolinas and even Iowas in the Schnarhorst with AP.  Granted, that's not saying much because those  ships have less than stellar armor protection but it still illustrates the point.  One thing about the Scharnhorst is that the lower size of the shells tends to allow it not to overpenetrate like a 14, 15 or 16 inch shell might against some targets.

[ARandomClaymore]

The Sigma values for the Scharnhorst is 2.0

[Mahrs]

The accuracy is rough, but the damage is delightful.  I play mostly cruisers, so the performance of the 283 seems pretty normal to me...better at range, of course, but harder to get hits out there.  Get inside of 12km, accept that RNG is going to troll you hard, and just keep the rounds going out every 20 seconds while using all 350mm of belt armor.  The hardest part is choosing when and where to close the range.  I still sort of suck at this and, at times, comically overextend in her.  Inside 12km, your time to target means that it really is down to your aim and RNG...there isn't much a cruiser with a 6+ second rudder shift can do against shells with a 4s flight time.  You can troll battleships by bouncing their shots and running past at full speed to torp them...their guns cannot track, and it's hilarious.  20% fire chance doesn't seem great...but, you get 6 guns forward and can still use your belt armor while peaking your rear turret...which effectively gives you anywhere between 18-27 shells on target in a minute, versus perhaps 16, but possibly only 8-12 from a competing BB in the same time period.  Starting fires shouldn't really be a problem, but may require some patience.  With her RoF, stronger HE would be...humorous for the Shiny Horse, less so for her opponents.  

[Skyfaller]

The 11 inchers wont citadel BBs unless they're roughly inside 12km range and full flat broadside AND its very few BB's it can citadel (mostly IJNs). Hitting the upper side armor does score 10k damage hits avg but hitting those are even harder to do given that sliver of upper side armor (I forget how its called) is a very, very small target. I only get hits there at point blank and its the hammer hits as the torpedoes slam into their hulls.

 

But again, its the age old HE mechanics problem... you get higher and more consistent damage firing HE at BB superstructure (a really wide target regardless of range) for ~6k damage on a decent salvo plus fires... than to fire AP and routinely get ~1.2k or less damage for the whole salvo unless RNG graces you with a hit to the upper side armor or citadel you were aiming for.

 

Scharnhorst's lower penetration rate and lower damage in the AP round makes those citadel hits be.. 'meh' compared with the total damage you'd do by firing a couple salvos of HE. In training room vs an Iowa for example, a citadel hit is 7200 damage... and getting that citadel is not something you can do every single salvo.. but you CAN do 3k to 6k avg damage firing HE at its superstructure per salvo... so overall you get better damage tossing HE for ~12k damage than just AP for an unreliable 7600 with ~1200 or so extra damage from shells that didn't hit citadel nor upper side armor.

 

Personally I think that HE rounds that do not pierce the armor should not deliver any damage... they should destroy external components and have a chance for fire but no damage to the hitpool if they don't punch through the armor. This should remove the [edited]of cruisers out-dps'ing battleships via nonstop rapid fire HE rounds, makes BB AP and HE rounds have a functional niche and role and makes the new perk of +HE penetration be worth taking on most ships.

[Kassill]

 I've not had many issues penetrating and dealing damage with Scharn. I've been eating away cruisers that turn flat and the fast rate of fire compared to other bb's makes up for the lower damage per hit (imo). Your armor is good enough that you can charge down slower BB's. I havent really used HE either as the AP loads fast enough I just keep slamming them into DDs while my secondaries sling HE. With Vigilance and Rudder shift Mod you can play some torpedobeats. 

 

The funniest moments are when you and another Scharn/Guein initiate the "joust" as I call it going bow and seeing who can out juke the other and slam them full of torpedoes. 

[Tesla67]

Played a game yesterday with only a 12 point Capt.  I use AP almost all of the time unless there are only DD left.  I use the Secondaries to fire the HE at most of my targets.  I  hit with over 100 Primary Guns AP and over 100 Secondary guns HE.  Very fun ship to brawl in.

 

I took a screen shot but do not know how to paste it here.