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LupusMalum

As a IJN or German DD player, do you feel handicapped by WG recent release or previous patches?

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In my opinion, I feel that the way in which the meta of the game and the implementation of new game mechanics has made the IJN and German DDs very grueling to play. If you mainly play BBs or CA, I realize that you are happy with the state of DDs and I am not expecting to change your mind. If you try to find my stats look me up by my old name (Nosoup07), I changed my name because of "reasons" and I had a ton of used gold in my unused  WOT account. I posted this question to get feedback on my outlook and to see if there was any suggestion on how to fix the situation. I have included a few points to further my argument. Thank you for your time.

 

1. Short range torpedoes and weak guns with decrease fire chance. You have to get into suicde range with the hopes of any chance to hit a target with above marginal damage . I have been broadside to a BB within 3km and still missed. Your guns are basically useless, the only purpose of your guns is to give another visual cues to the enemy team that there is a DD in the area.

 

2. TA, SA, Radar, Hydro, spotter planes, CV planes, nerfed smoke  and screening DDs. This is a list of more of the visual cues that the enemy team has that there is a DD in the Area. This a problem because a DDs (specifically IJN) rely on not being spotted. If you are spotted your chance for a torp hit drastically lowers.

 

3. You are forced to engage the enemy with torps at sucide range. Again if you are caught at this range you are dead, your armour will not help.

 

4. A spotted dd is focused fired by the whole team.

 

5. RN CL or any other CA or CL. Unless you get a lucky torp hit your dead.

 

6. Easily dodged torpedoes  

 

7.New Meta-due to some social engineering by WG, one team general pushes hard, while the other team  flees for the border of the map. This is a problem for DDs in games that have Cap points. If the dds tries to cap without CLOSE support. That dd will get steamrolled by the enemy team, for no other reason than being closes target that can be fired on while only having to worry about long range fire support.

 

Edited by LupusMalum
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DDs pretty much control the game. If anything, cruisers need more buffs, as the best counters to DDs are (still) other DDs.

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I'm fine with the high tier ones (I love Kagero!), but i think the mid-tier ones (T6-7)on the original line (since i haven't tried the second line yet) are a bit handicapped by a large detection radius or a low speed, or both. IJN DDs used to be able to avoid other DDs with their low detection and high speed, but since the mid-tier DDs have concealment ranges of around 7km, i feel like this advantage has been taken away. And since they have slower torps coupled with this, it gets harder to land torps.

 

And yes, i do agree that there are too many hydro-radar carrying ships. In a standard high tier match, you will have maybe 3 radar carrying cruisers, 1 hydro equipped cruiser, 3 hydro equipped battleships (German battleships are really popular), and sometimes even a radar carrying battleship (oh Missouri, why?).

 

So it's definitely harder to play DDs in general, but i still think a good player can get around most of these problems. 

Edited by Aduial

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I have not tried the new German DD's, but I don't really feel that IJN DD's are in any worse shape than they were months ago.  They're still very good spotters, decent at screening and capping and have unreliable but extremely hard-hitting weapons.  They're also still very vulnerable to CV's and other DD's.  I don't think any of those things have really changed recently.  If you liked IJN DD's and made them work before, you probably still can.

 

IJN torpedoes remain powerful, if inconsistent, weapons.  Yes, smart players who realize you're stalking them can dodge them and sometimes you get a game where everyone just leaps out of the way of your torpedoes.  It's not like seal-clubbing with the Isokaze a few weeks after release where you just fire all your tubes right at the aiming indicator and get hits.  But players do get distracted, or they sail too close to islands or they sit too long in smoke and when things like that happen the Long Lance is still an excellent tool.

 

Since the patch that rearranged the IJN DD lines, I have a 76% win rate in the new Kagero and average over 55k damage per game with a torpedo hit rate of 8%.  The ship works well for me.

Edited by Vaidency

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I disagree about the whole suicide torps thing.

 

"Suicide range", as you put it, for IJN DDs is useful range.

 

And also, it's not really a problem if you struggle against a CA/CL. Counters and all. It's more like Khabarovsk needs to be nerfed against CA/CL. I'd suggest a Kiev level HP nuke.

 

Other than that, general agreement.

 

A few points in particular:

 

- IJN shells shouldn't have been nerfed with the RoF buff. IJN DDs as a package were already somewhat UP, the RoF buff would have brought them more or less to parity with the other branches.

 

- Last known position is too powerful in it's current state (Which just highlights how much of a cheat it actually was as a mod).

   - Positions should fade over time, and only ship spots should leave a mark

 

 

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DDs pretty much control the game. If anything, cruisers need more buffs, as the best counters to DDs are (still) other DDs.

 

 

Personally, I think WoWs is too 'complex' an ecosystem for that.

 

Buff cruisers = CA kill more DD.

Fewer DD = kill fewer BB.

More BB around = kill more CA/CL.

 

Net result, big balance shift, cruisers' still in a bad place.

 

Ironically

Buff DD = kill more BB

Fewer BB = kill fewer CA/CL

More CA/CL = kill more DD

 

All that assumes popularity of classes is in some way related to their combat efficiency (unless taking them out in game quicker helps in that game). Unfortunately BB are super iconic so they get a lot of games played regardless of stats IMO.

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Hatsuharu and Fubuki need the [edited]ing stock 6km torpedoes removed.  There's no reason for them to have such low range while maintaining the same spotting distance and running speed as the 8km version found on Mutsuki.

 

Other than that, the only issues I've been having with IJN DDs are PEBKAC: I did 35k damage in my first Akatsuki Random battle despite missing no less than 3 short-range torpedo attacks.  Mostly because I under-led some turning battleships due to being more familiar with my Type 90s when their speed was boosted with TA, and I'm not that good with DDs to begin with, especially IJN ones.

Edited by TenguBlade

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Since the patch that rearranged the IJN DD lines, I have a 76% win rate in the new Kagero and average over 55k damage per game with a torpedo hit rate of 8%.  The ship works well for me.

 

 

 

I agree. I'm sitting on 76k average damage with a 14% torp hit rate, which gives me a WTR of 2300. This is probably not gonna last because i only have 8 games played, but i think it still shows you that the ship is extremely rewarding when played correctly.

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WG has nerfed IJN dd to a great extent months ago. After 6.0.0 comes, there is a new captain skill which can tell the direction of the closest enemy ship no matter it is spotted or not. That makes dds which live on torpedo more broken. I have not played German dd yet. But my friends (lots of experienced players) complained a lot about the weakness of German dd. It seems the only competitive German dd is the T10 one.

And for the new skill "tree", besides that op skill, there are also some stupid skills like trading 100% longer burning time with capability to take off or land planes, trading speed of planes with higher rate to survive while returning to cv. For the first skill, it is a suicide skill. Only for some very rare situation you will need it like you are being chased by a dd and your deck is on fire. To kill that dd, you may find that skill useful. But for high tier games, experienced player can usually get avoid of this kind of situation. For the second one, I say, just play smart, set the route of planes, do not feed them to AA fire or enemy fighters. (Bombers are faster than fighters after dropping load).

 

I am curious how did developers to decide this skill tree. Whose advice does the developers listen? Super testers? It is said the majority of super testers having 40-50% victories. I know the game is not designed for top player but for average players. Since of that, some unbalanced stuff comes out because those average players complained about them like IJN dd's torp is too OP, or CV is too OP. Some of them just have no idea how to dodge torp, read map to estimate the position of dds or make use of fleet AA. WG should really reconsider how to buff or nerf something.

 

Last year, WG said they will not make cv players feel disappointed in 2016. But it turned out to be the broken economy system and unfriendly AA buff. Recently, they said the same word again. But the change of skill tree makes more ships be able to choose double AA skills. WG, why do not you just remove the entire cv lines?

 

Edited by NakanuMo
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And for the new skill "tree", besides that op skill, there are also some stupid skills like trading 100% longer burning time with capability to take off or land planes, trading speed of planes with higher rate to survive while returning to cv. For the first skill, it is a suicide skill. Only for some very rare situation you will need it like you are being chased by a dd and your deck is on fire. To kill that dd, you may find that skill useful. But for high tier games, experienced player can usually get avoid of this kind of situation. For the second one, I say, just play smart, set the route of planes, do not feed them to AA fire or enemy fighters. (Bombers are faster than fighters after dropping load).

 

Another one: HE/AP. I hope this skill and the ones you mentioned are not implemented into the game. More skills are nice, but not if they have a negative influence on the game. 

Edited by Aduial
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look, I can't speak to 8+ IJN DD's, I can't speak to German DD's, and I'll say that while I play IJN DD's, it's far from my main class, but missions/challenges/etc have had me play them more last few months.

 

This last change to IJN DD's with the new branch, I don't notice a difference. I still have the EXACT same things going for me I had before. Long range torpedoes that I can fire safely without getting spotted. I only got screwed over in captain's getting changed around. I'e seen people cry about Minekaze 1st game after patch I did about 100k damage without trying. My only issue is that the "Balanced" IJN line - the one thats supposed to lose a bit on torps but gain better guns. It doesn't really feel that way at all. Guns feel the same almost, hey need a better difference. But I stick to 7-10 km out, fire a spread, wait to reap the rewards unless they actually manage to dodge. Sure other DD's are harder to hit now, but oh well. I'll also say that yes, a long standing issue is that IJN feels defenseless when stuck against gunboat DD's because you can't shoot and maneuver and don't get the same rate/volume of fire.

 

Germany from what it seems got screwed because WG wants to get rid of invisi-fire without smoke, but it oly applies to German DD's not USN and the others so they get hosed. IJN is fine up to at least tier 7, but thats my opinion.

 

Edit: and just cause I saw that post after mine - don't get me started on CV's. I've pointed out they said we'd be glad and only positive we got is more accurate historically aircraft, next year's "rework" is currently UI only so not the much needed balance overhaul, just a new line to hopefully break the meta, and I'm seriously ready to start a war with them over Graf Zeppelin if they try and add it as a premium because keeping it historic means either tier 8 with planes that will not survive at that tier, tier 7 with the same relative issue just not as bad but bad enough to not be viable or tier 6 where it's OP due to firepower or some other way messed up trying to nerf it to that tier. It belongs in a line, Germany has a bunch of CV's to make most of it with one possible "fake" or stretch of reality at the top - just like the German tier 10 BB. Put in the tech tree rules change to give it better aircraft to compete at tier 8, account for folding wings (most of the planned aircraft lacked them, part of the low numbers for it) and a deck park as well as just straight up balance, improve the AA and anything else to make it tier 8 viable as opposed to 109"T", really a 109E, the Fi 167 and the JU 87C I think, or stretching to the 87D and the abandoned earlier Me 155 being designed for GZ, that's closer to the 109F/G replacing the nose cannon with one in each wing. The 109E/T, JU 87C, and FI 167 are tier 5 maybe 6 for the 109 and stuka, and Tier 4 for the 167. The 87D is more solidly tier 6 than the C model. and the Me 155 is still at absolute best tier 7 material. On a ship that has maybe mid tier AA for a CV as well as mid tier aircraft numbers historically as is but more importantly, where tier 6 becomes a problem, it has 8x2 of the same 15 cm secondaries used on Scharn and Bismarck, as well as a dozen 10.5 DP guns. Thats a lot of firepower for a tier 6 CV.

Edited by WanderingGhost

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My biggest complaint is the stock torpedoes on the mid-tier IJN DDs royally suck. I can't even pull off my hide behind an island and nuke the first battleship that gets too close tactic with those kind of torps

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There are already many threads on these issues. Does WG give a damn? No, and that can really be seen by how they threw all of their youtube community contributors under the bus when they gave permission for them to preview the new German Line, only to then, just before release, completely nerf the ships into the ground on actual release, which caused many of the youtubers to have to scramble to warn their followers before folks spent gold and free XP on the line.

 

I hardly play more then a few games a day these days in WoWS, and even less in WoT and I have been a highly invested player of both games, but wargaming seems to be changing up their games which were focused on being challenging to play, and rewarding to players for improving their skills rather then simply buying OP premium vehicles/ships for an "I WIN" button, to games that are now overly simplified, where more and more things are being put into the games to do the thinking for you. WoT is being ruined by the same change in direction, to the point where now, if you get hit by an enemy tank, the EXACT location of the tank that shot you is given to you with an arrow highlighting the enemy vehicle!!! That may happen in today's world of satellites and computers, but back in the 1920's thru to the late 60's this technology did not exist. Sherman drivers in France 1944 did not get the Germans waving a flag for them to show where the Tiger Tank was that shot at them from behind the hedgerows of Normandy. 

 

Take the rumors on the new Captain skills...

If a carrier driver doesnt want his decks ablaze, then he needs to learn to multitask, keep one eye on the map and keep his ship from being nailed by enemy DD's, with the "Situational Awareness" skill there is no reason why a carrier captain cant do this. To give a carrier captain a skill that allows him to still use his flight deck while it is ablaze is an OP skill that isnt needed in the game, and all it takes to see that is common sense. In real life, a carrier with a burning deck... and remember most American Carriers and Japanese Carriers did not have armored flight decks, so fires also meant the decks were holed as well, so no, aircraft would not be able to fly from a burning carrier. After the fires were out of course repairs even temporary repairs were often done that brought the deck back to operation.

 

Any skill that automatically tells someone where the closest enemy ship is to him is also a game breaking change. Situational Awareness is all I need to know that I have a ship close enough to see me, and then it should come down to my own intuition (Letting the player use his own Brain, that is what games were meant to do... Make Players exercise and expand their own minds, not create a game that becomes point and click where the computer does all the thinking for you.) to think on where the enemy ship might be and how I deal with the situation.

 

It really isnt just the DD nerfs that are hurting this game, it is the continual "dumbing down" of the games to please lazy players who do not want to take any time to learn the game mechanics that is causing me to start and look elsewhere for more challenging game play.

 

My advice to those who really want to just keep plugging away at this game... Play Battleships, the only class that never gets any changes other then buffs these days. See how things go when the only ships being played day after day are just BB's. Playing Cruisers... hurts your game stats, Playing DD's hurts your game stats, carriers?????? Battleships offer the best statistics in damage dealt etc.... and of course have always been the easiest ships to play.

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There are already many threads on these issues. Does WG give a damn? No, and that can really be seen by how they threw all of their youtube community contributors under the bus when they gave permission for them to preview the new German Line, only to then, just before release, completely nerf the ships into the ground on actual release, which caused many of the youtubers to have to scramble to warn their followers before folks spent gold and free XP on the line.

 

I hardly play more then a few games a day these days in WoWS, and even less in WoT and I have been a highly invested player of both games, but wargaming seems to be changing up their games which were focused on being challenging to play, and rewarding to players for improving their skills rather then simply buying OP premium vehicles/ships for an "I WIN" button, to games that are now overly simplified, where more and more things are being put into the games to do the thinking for you. WoT is being ruined by the same change in direction, to the point where now, if you get hit by an enemy tank, the EXACT location of the tank that shot you is given to you with an arrow highlighting the enemy vehicle!!! That may happen in today's world of satellites and computers, but back in the 1920's thru to the late 60's this technology did not exist. Sherman drivers in France 1944 did not get the Germans waving a flag for them to show where the Tiger Tank was that shot at them from behind the hedgerows of Normandy. 

 

Take the rumors on the new Captain skills...

If a carrier driver doesnt want his decks ablaze, then he needs to learn to multitask, keep one eye on the map and keep his ship from being nailed by enemy DD's, with the "Situational Awareness" skill there is no reason why a carrier captain cant do this. To give a carrier captain a skill that allows him to still use his flight deck while it is ablaze is an OP skill that isnt needed in the game, and all it takes to see that is common sense. In real life, a carrier with a burning deck... and remember most American Carriers and Japanese Carriers did not have armored flight decks, so fires also meant the decks were holed as well, so no, aircraft would not be able to fly from a burning carrier. After the fires were out of course repairs even temporary repairs were often done that brought the deck back to operation.

 

Any skill that automatically tells someone where the closest enemy ship is to him is also a game breaking change. Situational Awareness is all I need to know that I have a ship close enough to see me, and then it should come down to my own intuition (Letting the player use his own Brain, that is what games were meant to do... Make Players exercise and expand their own minds, not create a game that becomes point and click where the computer does all the thinking for you.) to think on where the enemy ship might be and how I deal with the situation.

 

It really isnt just the DD nerfs that are hurting this game, it is the continual "dumbing down" of the games to please lazy players who do not want to take any time to learn the game mechanics that is causing me to start and look elsewhere for more challenging game play.

 

My advice to those who really want to just keep plugging away at this game... Play Battleships, the only class that never gets any changes other then buffs these days. See how things go when the only ships being played day after day are just BB's. Playing Cruisers... hurts your game stats, Playing DD's hurts your game stats, carriers?????? Battleships offer the best statistics in damage dealt etc.... and of course have always been the easiest ships to play.

 

 

Aye so speaketh a solid truth.  Every paragraph is gold.

 

 

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Akatsuki is actually a solid ship after significant investment, but until I get CE her high base detection is always going to be a big issue when facing both uptiers (concealment module + higher chance for more loaded captains) and downtiers (lower base detection).

Hatsuharu is still underwhelming. If I played her with the upgraded hull and torps she's just a worse version of her old self (being at T6 doesn't change anything since the matchmaking is about the same), but I'm currently using her as a discount Farragut with the stock hull + AFT and have found some modicum of success that way.

Edited by Flashtirade

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Aye so speaketh a solid truth.  Every paragraph is gold.

 

 

 

LOL How did ye Ken ((Ken=Know in standard english) I was Scottish?

But thank you for the kind words

 

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There are already many threads on these issues. Does WG give a damn? No, and that can really be seen by how they threw all of their youtube community contributors under the bus when they gave permission for them to preview the new German Line, only to then, just before release, completely nerf the ships into the ground on actual release, which caused many of the youtubers to have to scramble to warn their followers before folks spent gold and free XP on the line.

 

I hardly play more then a few games a day these days in WoWS, and even less in WoT and I have been a highly invested player of both games, but wargaming seems to be changing up their games which were focused on being challenging to play, and rewarding to players for improving their skills rather then simply buying OP premium vehicles/ships for an "I WIN" button, to games that are now overly simplified, where more and more things are being put into the games to do the thinking for you. WoT is being ruined by the same change in direction, to the point where now, if you get hit by an enemy tank, the EXACT location of the tank that shot you is given to you with an arrow highlighting the enemy vehicle!!! That may happen in today's world of satellites and computers, but back in the 1920's thru to the late 60's this technology did not exist. Sherman drivers in France 1944 did not get the Germans waving a flag for them to show where the Tiger Tank was that shot at them from behind the hedgerows of Normandy. 

 

Take the rumors on the new Captain skills...

If a carrier driver doesnt want his decks ablaze, then he needs to learn to multitask, keep one eye on the map and keep his ship from being nailed by enemy DD's, with the "Situational Awareness" skill there is no reason why a carrier captain cant do this. To give a carrier captain a skill that allows him to still use his flight deck while it is ablaze is an OP skill that isnt needed in the game, and all it takes to see that is common sense. In real life, a carrier with a burning deck... and remember most American Carriers and Japanese Carriers did not have armored flight decks, so fires also meant the decks were holed as well, so no, aircraft would not be able to fly from a burning carrier. After the fires were out of course repairs even temporary repairs were often done that brought the deck back to operation.

 

Any skill that automatically tells someone where the closest enemy ship is to him is also a game breaking change. Situational Awareness is all I need to know that I have a ship close enough to see me, and then it should come down to my own intuition (Letting the player use his own Brain, that is what games were meant to do... Make Players exercise and expand their own minds, not create a game that becomes point and click where the computer does all the thinking for you.) to think on where the enemy ship might be and how I deal with the situation.

 

It really isnt just the DD nerfs that are hurting this game, it is the continual "dumbing down" of the games to please lazy players who do not want to take any time to learn the game mechanics that is causing me to start and look elsewhere for more challenging game play.

 

My advice to those who really want to just keep plugging away at this game... Play Battleships, the only class that never gets any changes other then buffs these days. See how things go when the only ships being played day after day are just BB's. Playing Cruisers... hurts your game stats, Playing DD's hurts your game stats, carriers?????? Battleships offer the best statistics in damage dealt etc.... and of course have always been the easiest ships to play.

 

Dude, that revamp was withdrawn from testing and scrapped WEEKS ago because WG tried the ideas you hate and didn't like them either.

 

Why on Gods green earth are people continuing to [edited]about it?

 

 I know the answer of course. People hear a rumor, do exactly zero research to see if it is still true (Or was even true in the first place.), and come to crap all over the forums with their verbal diarrhea.

 

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Dude, that revamp was withdrawn from testing and scrapped WEEKS ago because WG tried the ideas you hate and didn't like them either.

 

Why on Gods green earth are people continuing to [edited]about it?

 

 I know the answer of course. People hear a rumor, do exactly zero research to see if it is still true (Or was even true in the first place.), and come to crap all over the forums with their verbal diarrhea.

 

 

You may want to clarify as to what "revamp" you are talking about here. Many of the points I have made are things that WG IS planning to bring to the table in 2017 and some things, have already seen the light of day in WoT.

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You may want to clarify as to what "revamp" you are talking about here. Many of the points I have made are things that WG IS planning to bring to the table in 2017 and some things, have already seen the light of day in WoT.

 

Sorry, the captain skill revamp.

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Sorry, the captain skill revamp.

 

The revamp has not been "scrapped" it is still being tested and will see the light of day sometime next year. It was just in the WoWS news on the 17th of this month.

 

Edit: They will also be adding "Historic" commanders who will come with "Unique" skills..... Sounds pretty much like WG is now changing it's direction from a year ago when they proudly stated that they were a true "Free to PLAY" and "PLAY to WIN" company, and are now setting their sights on being another "PAY to WIN" company.

Edited by Oberst1

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