Death of the Suffren

[Ariecho]

Introduction:

In December 1916, a blend message from the French Admiralty informed the press that the French battleship Suffren had been declared lost, but that no causes of its disappearance had been found.

 

Battleship Suffren:

http://nsm01.casimag...97662622892.png

 

The Suffren was a pre-dreadnought battleship launched in 1899 and finished in 1903.  Originally thought as being a modified Iéna-class battleship, she was indeed of a class of her own, as she only retained some of the Iéna's layout.

 

Characteristics:

Displacement: 12,236 tons (standard) -- 12,688 tons (full load)

Length: 413.1 feet

Beam: 70.3 feet

Draught: 27.0 feet

Power: 16,200 ihp

Speed: 17 knots

Armament: 2x2 305mm -- 10x1 164mm -- 8x1 100mm -- 20x1 47mm -- 2x1 37mm -- 4x450mm torpedo tubes

Armor: Belt: 300mm -- Decks: 60mm -- Barbettes: 250mm -- Main turrets: 290mm -- Bulkheads: 110mm

Bad luck ship:

The Suffren was plagued with incidents:

• In 1906, while conducting exercises in the Mediterranean Sea, she rammed the Bonite (French submarine), who had miscalculated the fleet's position.  The impact almost destroyed the submarine who was only saved by a fast intervention from her commander who dropped her weighted keel.

• In 1907, while being dry-docked next to battleship Iéna,  she got damaged when the Iéna's magazines exploded.

• In 1908, she broke one of her port propeller's shaft.

• In 1910, she broker starboard propeller's shaft.

• In 1911, her anchor chain broke, killing one sailor.

• In 1914, she lost power, and was struck by the battleship Démocratie.

World War I:

http://clausuchronia...9-suffren-2.jpg

Suffren was engaged in operations against the Ottomans and participated in operations in the Dardanelles in 1914, and 1915, where her guns were used against coastal batteries, alongside the Royal Navy.

 

On March 18th, she got hit 14 times in 15 minutes.  One of the hits bounced off the aft  305mm turrets, and destroyed one of the 164mm.  She was eventually sent back to Toulon for repairs where she stayed until 1916.

 

On November 15th, 1916, Suffren was ordered to leave Toulon and reach Lorient.  She first stopped in Bizerte on November 18th, then Gibraltar on November 20th, where she stayed until November 23rd because of bad weather.  She eventually left on November 24th, without any escort.  It was the last time the Suffren and her crew of 648 men were ever seen.

 

Meanwhile in Heligoland:

On November 15th, 1916, Kapitänleutnant Hans Walther, commanding officer of the U-52, was sent to patrol in the Atlantic.  His orders were to go around Great Britain on the north side, then run south in the direction of the Canary Islands and eventually to the Mediterranean Sea.

 

U-52 meeting the U-35 in 1916

 

On November 26th, while sailing close to the Portuguese coasts, she encountered an enemy warship.  Let's hear from the U-52 commander in his own words.

 

"On my starboard side, around 08:30, I can see the masts of a warship that is heading north.  I ask for a fast dive.  She's a large ship with two chimneys, and I believe that she is from the Formidable class.  She doesn't have any escort and is running straight north.

 

Formidable class battleship

 

 

I maneuver so to attack her from the front.  I am trying to stay at attack speed, but the surge prevents us to stay submerged.  We then decide to go half speed, but realize that we'd get too close.  So, we change our course to attack from a different angle while preserving the possibility to attack from our aft tubes.  They are ready and filled. This maneuver makes the submarine's aft very heavy and her kiosque is not submerged anymore when we are about 500 meters from our objective.  I ask all crew members to get to the front of the boat, to keep her at combat depth.

 

At 08:56, I order to fire from torpedo tube number 2.  As I believe that I've been spotted, and because I am in front of my target, I am afraid that she will ram me, and I order an immersion at a depth of 20 meters, while ordering a crash port turn.  In the meanwhile, after 18 seconds, I can her a first explosion, rapidly followed by a heavier one, which shakes our boat.  To find out what is going on, I ask to go up to a depth of 11 meters.  Before we are even to the desired depth, we are again getting very heavy in the aft section.  A little later, we hear a loud noise and something scratching against our hull.  We cannot maneuver our periscope, which is stuck at mid-height.  I try again to reach our new depth.  We can't hear anything but I can eventually reach periscope depth.  On the rear, I can sea a very large blot as well as some smut.  I order the boat to surface and I go outside.  Seven minutes after I launched my torpedo, all I can see is an explosion cloud that is dispersed by the wind.  My explanation of what happened is that the torpedo provoked an internal explosion, which made the ship sink almost instantly, almost colliding with our submarine while she was going down.  I have some damage on the bridge as well as some scratches on the periscope.  I can also see some cloth on my radio mast, as well as a navy hat.  They smell of burn.  I also found a metallic piece that seems to come from a large caliber projectile.

 

At 09:03, I have not found any survivors or new evidence.  I continue my route."

 

http://www.histomar....es/suffren5.jpg

 

The battleship that sunk was the Suffren.  She didn't have any time to send any distress signal nor to save anybody.  It took one month for the French admiralty to eventually declare her lost.

[Crag_r]

did you double post this Ariecho? tut tut tut, but good post by the way never knew about this.

[JeeWeeJ]

Great read Ari, didn't know about this! :Smile_great:

[Gaea]

I really need to get a couple of you on Teamspeak or Skype so you can teach me the basics of ships and the navy.. You have so much knowledge that I'd love to have!

[JeeWeeJ]

Gaea, on 23 October 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

I really need to get a couple of you on Teamspeak or Skype so you can teach me the basics of ships and the navy.. You have so much knowledge that I'd love to have!

You'll only need Ari, Tanz, Quaffer, Nargilfenris and MM2ss. Thats pretty much every wikipedia entry on naval related topics compressed in just a few heads. :Smile_smile:

[krazyone]

Wow that really is a bad luck ship. Thanks for posting, was a good read.

 

I really like how you included the problems the ship occurred and the timeline of problems. We get to see what the ship was like and possibly feel a little of what the sailors felt.

[Ariecho]

Thank you guys.  And sorry for the double post.  Slow internet at work made me double-post.

[Ariecho]

JeeWeeJ, on 23 October 2012 - 09:00 PM, said:

You'll only need Ari, Tanz, Quaffer, Nargilfenris and MM2ss. Thats pretty much every wikipedia entry on naval related topics compressed in just a few heads. :Smile_smile:

You have as much knowledge as I do.  I just specialize on the French navy and cats...

Gaea, on 23 October 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

I really need to get a couple of you on Teamspeak or Skype so you can teach me the basics of ships and the navy.. You have so much knowledge that I'd love to have!

Anytime.  Actually, would be fun to create a World of Warships teamspeak server.

[ElvenLord]

JeeWeeJ, on 23 October 2012 - 09:00 PM, said:

You'll only need Ari, Tanz, Quaffer, Nargilfenris and MM2ss. Thats pretty much every wikipedia entry on naval related topics compressed in just a few heads. :Smile_smile:

I agree with that list there

[Windhover118]

ElvenLord, on 23 October 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

I agree with that list there

Ya, that list pretty much sums up our resident Naval experts. Although I would be willing to throw in JeeWeeJ and Eyeless as well.

[ElvenLord]

Gaea, on 23 October 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

I really need to get a couple of you on Teamspeak or Skype so you can teach me the basics of ships and the navy.. You have so much knowledge that I'd love to have!

JeeWeeJ, on 23 October 2012 - 09:00 PM, said:

You'll only need Ari, Tanz, Quaffer, Nargilfenris and MM2ss. Thats pretty much every wikipedia entry on naval related topics compressed in just a few heads. :Smile_smile:

ElvenLord, on 23 October 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

I agree with that list there

Windhover118, on 23 October 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:

Ya, that list pretty much sums up our resident Naval experts. Although I would be willing to throw in JeeWeeJ and Eyeless as well.

All of that being said, I would still love a chance to sit in on that conversation and just listen....

[Windhover118]

ElvenLord, on 23 October 2012 - 10:50 PM, said:

All of that being said, I would still love a chance to sit in on that conversation and just listen....

I would be right there with ya.

[MM2ss]

I am not very familiar with Suffren myself, and there seems to be a lack of non-Wikipedia information.  So two questions:  When she was christened, did the bottle break on the first strike?  Was there ever a woman on board her?...

 

Don't believe me?  Fine, but just go and ask anyone that was on the Queen Victoria for her maiden voyage in 2007...  Bottle failed to break, followed by a virus on board the make the passengers start spewing their guts up.  Maybe something a little older...ever heard of the Edmund Fitzgerald?  Talk about a cursed ship...

 

Call me superstitious if you want, but I don't like to take chances.

[Ariecho]

MM2ss, on 24 October 2012 - 03:11 AM, said:

I am not very familiar with Suffren myself, and there seems to be a lack of non-Wikipedia information.  So two questions:  When she was christened, did the bottle break on the first strike?  Was there ever a woman on board her?...

Don't believe me?  Fine, but just go and ask anyone that was on the Queen Victoria for her maiden voyage in 2007...  Bottle failed to break, followed by a virus on board the make the passengers start spewing their guts up.  Maybe something a little older...ever heard of the Edmund Fitzgerald?  Talk about a cursed ship...

Call me superstitious if you want, but I don't like to take chances.

I couldn't find such details.  :Smile_veryhappy:

[MM2ss]

Me either, that is why I asked, I figure there must be a French Navy junky here somewhere.  Seriously though, I don't get on any boat that the christening bottle didn't break on the first strike.  I actually asked by detailer about that when I was assigned to my submarine.

[Windhover118]

MM2ss, on 24 October 2012 - 03:11 AM, said:

I am not very familiar with Suffren myself, and there seems to be a lack of non-Wikipedia information.  So two questions:  When she was christened, did the bottle break on the first strike?  Was there ever a woman on board her?...

Don't believe me?  Fine, but just go and ask anyone that was on the Queen Victoria for her maiden voyage in 2007...  Bottle failed to break, followed by a virus on board the make the passengers start spewing their guts up.  Maybe something a little older...ever heard of the Edmund Fitzgerald?  Talk about a cursed ship...

Call me superstitious if you want, but I don't like to take chances.

Its Ironic because between the period of her launcing and sinking, the Edmund Fitzgerald was one of the most successful ships on the Great Lakes. She was the ship everyone wanted to serve on. She had an unlucky beginging and an unlucky ending but her life in between wasnt that unlucky.

[Ariecho]

MM2ss, on 24 October 2012 - 03:30 AM, said:

Me either, that is why I asked, I figure there must be a French Navy junky here somewhere.  Seriously though, I don't get on any boat that the christening bottle didn't break on the first strike.  I actually asked by detailer about that when I was assigned to my submarine.

Most of my sources for the post are from French sites/books.  I distrust wikipedia with a vengeance, and only use it after verifying with alternate sources.

[MM2ss]

Windhover118, on 24 October 2012 - 06:17 AM, said:

Its Ironic because between the period of her launcing and sinking, the Edmund Fitzgerald was one of the most successful ships on the Great Lakes. She was the ship everyone wanted to serve on. She had an unlucky beginging and an unlucky ending but her life in between wasnt that unlucky.

She made money and made her runs, sure, but she had plenty of issues along the way.  Three swings on the bottle, ship didn't slide into the water as she should have, I seem to remember something about one of the onlookers having a heart attack during the launching, damage to a pier during the launching, keelblocks got stuck, lost an anchor later on...  She might have made her rounds, but she was cursed all the same.

[Windhover118]

MM2ss, on 24 October 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

She made money and made her runs, sure, but she had plenty of issues along the way.  Three swings on the bottle, ship didn't slide into the water as she should have, I seem to remember something about one of the onlookers having a heart attack during the launching, damage to a pier during the launching, keelblocks got stuck, lost an anchor later on...  She might have made her rounds, but she was cursed all the same.

That was during launching. I mean she didnt have problems between then and the time she sunk. I am not saying she wasnt a cursed ship. I am just saying that there werent any other signs after that. She was launched a bad luck ship, had a very successful career, than was lost with all hands.

[MM2ss]

The anchor wasn't lost during the launching, that was about a year before she went down.  Need I go over what the anchor means to sailors?  It is the sign of stability and security, in losing her anchor in 1974 the Edmund Fitzgerald was doomed, it was only a matter of time until she went to see Neptune's emissary(Davy Jones for those not familiar with the lore of sea going folks).

 

That being said, I might not be personally superstitious, but I figure there is no need to tempt fate, so I always gave Neptune his few coppers before casting off.

 

PS.  As far that the Edmund Fitzgerald is concerned, after they lost the anchor, they may as well have killed a dozen albatrosses, sailed on Friday, and invited 13 priest and 24 women to sail with them.

[Windhover118]

MM2ss, on 24 October 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

The anchor wasn't lost during the launching, that was about a year before she went down.  Need I go over what the anchor means to sailors?  It is the sign of stability and security, in losing her anchor in 1974 the Edmund Fitzgerald was doomed, it was only a matter of time until she went to see Neptune's emissary(Davy Jones for those not familiar with the lore of sea going folks).

That being said, I might not be personally superstitious, but I figure there is no need to tempt fate, so I always gave Neptune his few coppers before casting off.

PS.  As far that the Edmund Fitzgerald is concerned, after they lost the anchor, they may as well have killed a dozen albatrosses, sailed on Friday, and invited 13 priest and 24 women to sail with them.

Sorry, I wasnt aware that she lost her Anchor. I was only aware of the various incidents that happened during her Launching. I guess the point I was trying to make was that she didnt seem like a cursed ship over the course of her career which was very succussful...up until she sank anyway.

[thegreenbaron]

MM2ss, on 24 October 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

PS.  As far that the Edmund Fitzgerald is concerned, after they lost the anchor, they may as well have killed a dozen albatrosses, sailed on Friday, and invited 13 priest and 24 women to sail with them.

No, they made a far bigger mistake.  They sailed the Lakes in November.  And they were not the first, and likely not the last, great hauler to make that mistake.  The Bannockburn always springs to mind.  They've seen her on the lake off Caribou Island straining against the storm off and on since she was lost in 1903.

Only fools test their ships against the Witch of November.

MM2ss, dive on the wreck of the Emperor off Canoe Rocks on Lake Superior sometime if you'd like to become superstitious.  Only time I've ever had wreck divers come up screaming about ghosts.  Heard all sorts of things about rapture of the deep, but that was a new one.  When she went down she pulled one of hte lifeboats with her.

[MM2ss]

I like to say I am not superstitious...it may not be the entire truth.  Case in point(real, true, personal story follows):

 

Back an January 2007 I was still active duty and deployed on my sub in the gulf.  We were going through the Straits of Hormuz...  I woke up screaming like a banshee.  I had had the worst and most terrifying dream I had ever had.  Turns out, most people on a submarine these days don't much believe in visions, dreams, etc...me, well, I won't say I do, but I don't like to take chances.  To shorten the story a bit, I had dreamed we had been hit and were flooding, seeing a literal vision of the grim reaper does not make for good dreams.  Not 24 hours later, I was in the smoke pit with my LPO telling him about it, then we heard this "swoosh swoosh swoosh" type noise.  I looked at him and started to ask "What's that noise?" when he cut me off and screamed "COLLISION!".  About 10 seconds later the Mogamigawa(Japanese tanker) hit us, her screws cut several gashes into out hull, then water started spilling into the bilges.

 

Good news?  The tanker missed the pressure hull by about a foot.  The water in the bilges came from holding tanks that the sudden and extreme shaking and angles (from the collision) had released.

 

Now, I don't go under water anymore.  I figure I used up my good luck under the waves, so I settle for fishing in the rivers and lakes here in my area instead of heading for deep waters(I also don't go out of sight of land anymore, so no, I no longer go deep sea fishing either).

[Windhover118]

MM2ss, on 25 October 2012 - 12:28 AM, said:

I like to say I am not superstitious...it may not be the entire truth.  Case in point(real, true, personal story follows):

Back an January 2007 I was still active duty and deployed on my sub in the gulf.  We were going through the Straits of Hormuz...  I woke up screaming like a banshee.  I had had the worst and most terrifying dream I had ever had.  Turns out, most people on a submarine these days don't much believe in visions, dreams, etc...me, well, I won't say I do, but I don't like to take chances.  To shorten the story a bit, I had dreamed we had been hit and were flooding, seeing a literal vision of the grim reaper does not make for good dreams.  Not 24 hours later, I was in the smoke pit with my LPO telling him about it, then we heard this "swoosh swoosh swoosh" type noise.  I looked at him and started to ask "What's that noise?" when he cut me off and screamed "COLLISION!".  About 10 seconds later the Mogamigawa(Japanese tanker) hit us, her screws cut several gashes into out hull, then water started spilling into the bilges.

Good news?  The tanker missed the pressure hull by about a foot.  The water in the bilges came from holding tanks that the sudden and extreme shaking and angles (from the collision) had released.

Now, I don't go under water anymore.  I figure I used up my good luck under the waves, so I settle for fishing in the rivers and lakes here in my area instead of heading for deep waters(I also don't go out of sight of land anymore, so no, I no longer go deep sea fishing either).

I honestly think there isnt a sailor out there that isnt atleast a bit superstitious. I'm glad you only had a close call and could come back to tell the tail. I have heared of soldiers who got premenitions of their own death and soon after were killed in combat.

[MM2ss]

It happens.  I really do believe there is something of a 6th sense about that sort of thing.  Most people write it off as nerves or stress, etc...  I know too many people that have had those feelings and didn't come back or came back after a very close shave.

 

One friend of mine had emailed me about such a feeling, a week later he was disarming a bomb in Iraq and got shot three times.  His bomb suit saved him, but he is not right in the head to this day.  :(