Getting Rid of invisifiring

[Ju87s]

Ok guys, there is something I don't understand here.  People are justifying the atrocious  detection bloom increase when firing the German DDs by saying that WG wants to get rid of invisifiring.  I totally understand getting rid of invisifiring, I think it's total bullcrap that a ship can be spamming shells at you from open water while staying undetected.  What I don't understand is making the detection range of the DD 5km beyond its firing range.  Wouldn't making the detection bloom the same range as the firing range fix that problem?  Or at most 1km beyond it for kiters.  I just don't get what WG is thinking here.  Very few people are happy with these ships, especially since so many of us were really excited for the line.  This is the first time where a new line has been released and I'm seeing few to none from it being played in T6+.  And furthermore, if this really is their plan for all DDs, why not make all lines the same with the patch?  With the German DDs so severely handicapped while the rest of the DD lines left untouched, it gives people no reason to play their brand new ships.

[Geococcyx]

The BB players have paid WG off to reduce the number of trops and HE spam.

 

[TheGreatBlasto]

Invisifiring makes no sense. I have had BBs absolutely wrecked by it where you can't see who is doing it even if your launch a spotter plane to go look.

 

It's just stoopid.

[GhostSwordsman]

It's not justification, it's simply connecting dots and speculating.

 

.What I don't understand is making the detection range of the DD 5km beyond its firing range.  Wouldn't making the detection bloom the same range as the firing range fix that problem?  Or at most 1km beyond it for kiters.

 

No, because CE AFT still exists as a skill.

 

Edit: I meant to say AFT. Sorry, I was on the way out the door to get some dinner. AFT is generally what allows DDs to invisifire in the first place.

[Boomax77]

Even my plane doesn't find invisifiring people, its soooo annoying 

 

Let's be honest though, no matter what WG does to ANY mechanic, ANY ship class, SOMEBODY will complain, and something will not be balanced.

[ckupf]

There is nothing broken about invisifiring, it is easily counterable, hard to execute effectively, and not nearly as powerful as people think. 

[yashma]

What I don't understand is making the detection range of the DD 5km beyond its firing range.  Wouldn't making the detection bloom the same range as the firing range fix that problem?  Or at most 1km beyond it for kiters. 

This is very nitpicky and wouldn't change a thing.  If your detection range is equal to your firing range, you will be detected the moment you fire as what ever you are firing at has to be inside your detection range.  If your detection range is 5km farther than your firing range, you will still be detected the moment you fire.  The only time the increased detection would ever matter, is if you are ever firing at something beyond your firing range......which almost never happens.  

 

*edit

 

I suppose it could matter if the target you are firing at is behind an island allowing you to remain undetected, and there are other ships outside your detection range with direct line of sight...

[Ju87s]

This is very nitpicky and wouldn't change a thing.  If your detection range is equal to your firing range, you will be detected the moment you fire as what ever you are firing at has to be inside your detection range.  If your detection range is 5km farther than your firing range, you will still be detected the moment you fire.  The only time the increased detection would ever matter, is if you are ever firing at something beyond your firing range......which almost never happens.  

 

*edit

 

I suppose it could matter if the target you are firing at is behind an island allowing you to remain undetected, and there are other ships outside your detection range with direct line of sight...

 

Are you serious?  Nitpicky?  No other DD line besides the Russians (which are designed for firing at range) have anything like this.  And yes, it does matter, because if you're fighting with another DD or ship within your range and it dies, goes into smoke, sails behind an island, then guess what?  You're still detected even after it goes down.  The Same goes for when you're behind smoke or an island, but that ship way far out of your range to the side of you is still picking you up because of the detection bloom.  I can only assume you never play DD.  Yup, just checked- the most battles you've played in a specific DD is 31.

[yashma]

 

Are you serious?  Nitpicky?  No other DD line besides the Russians (which are designed for firing at range) have anything like this.  And yes, it does matter, because if you're fighting with another DD or ship within your range and it dies, goes into smoke, sails behind an island, then guess what?  You're still detected even after it goes down.  The Same goes for when you're behind smoke or an island, but that ship way far out of your range to the side of you is still picking you up because of the detection bloom.  I can only assume you never play DD.  Yup, just checked- the most battles you've played in a specific DD is 31.

I have 183 battles in DDs mostly Japanese, some VMF.  My most played class of ships are the IJN cruisers, all fully specced for stealth.  I am well aware of the benefits having low firing blooms, even when stealth firing is impossible...  

 

But in the grand scheme of things being detected by something outside your firing range after you've already broken line of sight with what ever detected you in the first place is still a rather nitpicky thing to complain about and hardly makes or breaks a class of ship, especially a DD equipped with smoke. It is just too situational an occurrence to be a major detriment.  Often times multiple ships rush the cap, meaning it is very rare to have a pure 1 vs 1 encounter with no other ships within your max firing range.  And if there are, their LoS is often blocked by smoke or islands...and if they do detect you, you can just deploy your own smoke to break detection. 

 

Now if you were complaining about the complete lose of the ability to stealth fire, I could understand that as it is a major change to the ships play style.

[Ju87s]

But in the grand scheme of things being detected by something outside your firing range after you've already broken line of sight with what ever detected you in the first place is still a rather nitpicky thing to complain about and hardly makes or breaks a class of ship, especially a DD equipped with smoke. It is just too situational an occurrence to be a major detriment.

 

Again, you hardly play DD.  The most you've played in a single boat is 31 games, and as you said they're IJN, not gunboats.  You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

It literally just happened to me.  I was 1v1ing a DD for a cap.  He goes into smoke, so I lose him, but he still has me detected and can fire on me because since I was firing, my detection went from 7km to 13.6 and the ships way to the south were still detecting me. 

[yashma]

 

Again, you hardly play DD.  The most you've played in a single boat is 31 games, and as you said they're IJN, not gunboats.  You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

It literally just happened to me.  I was 1v1ing a DD for a cap.  He goes into smoke, so I lose him, but he still has me detected and can fire on me because since I was firing, my detection went from 7km to 13.6 and the ships way to the south were still detecting me. 

*183 battles in DDs, another 300 or so in stealth reliant cruisers.  

 

And the above situation is where you could pop your own smoke, and assuming you were in a German DD you could always pop hydro to counter detect the enemy DD.   And just how far away where those ships exactly and what was your firing range?  

 

What you advocated for, was detection range to equal firing range.  I actually agree with that as it makes the most sense, but that does not change the fact I think it's a nitpicky complaint.  For even if that were the case, most DDs can get a firing ranges out to 10-12 km anyway.  Assuming you are rushing a cap, it is going to be a very rare occurrence where there are absolutely no enemy ships within 10-12km of the cap in the first place.

 

 

[Ju87s]

*183 battles in DDs, another 300 or so in stealth reliant cruisers.  

 

And the above situation is where you could pop your own smoke, and assuming you were in a German DD you could always pop hydro to counter detect the enemy DD.   And just how far away where those ships exactly and what was your firing range?  

 

What you advocated for, was detection range to equal firing range.  I actually agree with that as it makes the most sense, but that does not change the fact I think it's a nitpicky complaint.  For even if that were the case, most DDs can get a firing ranges out to 10-12 km anyway.  Assuming you are rushing a cap, it is going to be a very rare occurrence where there are absolutely no enemy ships within 10-12km of the cap in the first place.

 

 

 

yeah, 183 total from every single DD you've played added together.  You've never played a specific ship more than 31 battles.  I have more than your grand total in just one ship.

 

Smoke is finite and has a cool down.  You can't just pop it any time you want, and for some reason, the smoke is absolute garbage for Germany.  It takes longer to take effect, and lasts for like 30-40 seconds.  T5 German DDs don't have hydro.  My firing range is 10.7km.  My detection bloom after firing is 13.7, 0.3km away form double my normal 7km detection range.  If this was a "nitpicky" complaint, it wouldn't be the single most vocal complaint you're hearing from almost everyone regarding the German DD line.  Go on youtube and listen to what some of the pros and supertesters are saying.  They're all talking about how absolutely ridiculous it is and how the line isn't worth playing in its current state.

[TenguBlade]

Having detection bloom to firing range when firing is an impossibility so long as AFT and CE (and, at higher tiers, CSM1 and GFCS2) exists with how WG has decided to "tweak" this system.  As an example the high-tier German ships can still stealth-fire with full stealth build and AFT but are nowhere close to having that ability without a 15-point captain and full set of upgrades at least.

 

At this point all we can hope for is that WG will apply this rework to CAs first and see how atrociously stupid it is, then re-adjust before moving to DDs.  Few CAs have invsi-fire ability, and even fewer have any practical applications for it in more than a handful of specific situations.  Those that fall into that category can do without it in all honesty, with Chapayev being the closest to an exception, but the same isn't true of all or even most DDs from several lines.

[yashma]

 

yeah, 183 total from every single DD you've played added together.  You've never played a specific ship more than 31 battles.  I have more than your grand total in just one ship.

 

Smoke is finite and has a cool down.  You can't just pop it any time you want, and for some reason, the smoke is absolute garbage for Germany.  It takes longer to take effect, and lasts for like 30-40 seconds.  T5 German DDs don't have hydro.  My firing range is 10.7km.  My detection bloom after firing is 13.7, 0.3km away form double my normal 7km detection range.  If this was a "nitpicky" complaint, it wouldn't be the single most vocal complaint you're hearing from almost everyone regarding the German DD line.  Go on youtube and listen to what some of the pros and supertesters are saying.  They're all talking about how absolutely ridiculous it is and how the line isn't worth playing in its current state.

You were initially complaining about how the increased firing bloom is larger than the firing range, but at the same time you were also still advocating for the complete removal of stealth firing.  This would only ever be a problem in certain situations where what ever initially detected you dies or breaks off contact, leaving you detected unnecessarily.  Smoke 100% fixes this issue as you only need to break off LoS for an instant to go back to your base detection ranges.  Using smoke is not a major loss as if you charge guns blazing into a cap, you should expect to be forced to use your smoke anyway.     

 

You are claiming the German DD line as a whole is horrible because of this, and I think that is a very nitpicky complaint.  The real issue is that the German DDs lost the ability to stealth fire completely, which you supported mind you.  Being detected every time they fire their guns is a far far more serious problem then being detected every time they fire their guns when there are no enemy ships visible inside their firing range. 

 

*edit

 

To clarify.  I am calling your complaint nitpicky, because you are in favor of the change that caused the most harm to the German DDs, but are instead complaining about a rather minor side affect.

 

I don't agree with the change myself, with the possible exception of some of the higher tier ships which looked like they did need a stealth fire nerf, but even then, I feel WG went slightly overboard with the nerf bat.  If they are going to remove stealth firing, the size of the detection bloom doesn't matter all that much.  With the exception of a select few ships, such as the Atlanta, that specialize in using islands to stealth fire.

[Cruiser_CleveAniki]

Gonna repost this here...

"Do you know why Invisifire is so damn easy, by the way, even on the ships which don't abuse it the most? Because battleships really dislike closing the distance, even when it's the best option (though for some reason they love to when it's the worst option, i.e. charging a healthy German BB with torps). When a BB closes the distance, the cruisers feel a bit safer moving closer (though no cruiser is safe from death by click from halfway across the map still), and the DDs feel safer moving as an effective screening and advance force, and, shockingly, said forward screen spots invisifirng ships for battleships to click at their leisure."

[Ju87s]

You were initially complaining about how the increased firing bloom is larger than the firing range, but at the same time you were also still advocating for the complete removal of stealth firing.  This would only ever be a problem in certain situations where what ever initially detected you dies or breaks off contact, leaving you detected unnecessarily.  Smoke 100% fixes this issue as you only need to break off LoS for an instant to go back to your base detection ranges.  Using smoke is not a major loss as if you charge guns blazing into a cap, you should expect to be forced to use your smoke anyway.     

 

You are claiming the German DD line as a whole is horrible because of this, and I think that is a very nitpicky complaint.  The real issue is that the German DDs lost the ability to stealth fire completely, which you supported mind you.  Being detected every time they fire their guns is a far far more serious problem then being detected every time they fire their guns when there are no enemy ships viable inside their firing range. 

 

*edit

 

To clarify.  I am calling your complaint nitpicky, because you are in favor of the change that caused the most harm to the German DDs, but are instead complaining about a rather minor side affect.

 

I don't agree with the change myself, with the possible exception of some of the higher tier ships which looked like they did need a stealth fire nerf, but even then, I feel WG went slightly overboard with the nerf bat.  If they are going to remove stealth firing, the size of the detection bloom doesn't matter all that much.  With the exception of a select few ships, such as the Atlanta, that specialize in using islands to stealth fire.

 

play the line past T4 then come back and talk

[Wowzery]

The only thing I think, is if you're firing non-stop, your detection should increase as time goes on.  As it is I've hit more DDs firing this way, and those are the saltiest players out there.  They somehow think I can't zero in on where they are when they continue to fire.

[yashma]

 

play the line past T4 then come back and talk

The loss of stealth firing is the major issue here, not the detection bloom being larger than the firing range.  If you continue to support the removal of stealth firing but complain about the detection bloom, I will continue to call it a nitpicky complaint.

 

And riddle me this.  How often in a battle do you fire your guns with no enemies visible in your firing range, while simultaneously not having a smoke handy?

[Ju87s]

And riddle me this.  How often in a battle do you fire your guns with no enemies visible in your firing range, while simultaneously not having a smoke handy?

 

 

 

why would I fire my guns with no enemy in range

[Gojira420]

The loss of stealth firing is the major issue here, not the detection bloom being larger than the firing range.  If you continue to support the removal of stealth firing but complain about the detection bloom, I will continue to call it a nitpicky complaint.

 

@yashma Have you played any games in the German DD line?

[Ju87s]

 

@yashma Have you played any games in the German DD line?

 

they've hardly played DDs at all, and have mostly been Japanese stealth torpers in the few games they've played.  They have no idea what they're talking about.

[yashma]

 

why would I fire my guns with no enemy in range

Hence my point.

 

You said you support the removal of stealth firing, which means you feel that German DDs should be detected every time they fire their guns when not behind cover or in smoke, but you are still complaining about the detection bloom.  Having a detection bloom larger than your firing range is only ever an issue in certain situations when you fire your guns with no enemies with direct LoS to you inside your firing range.  This mostly happens when using islands to stealth fire or during cap battles.  In both cases the smoke that all German DDs get completely alleviates the problem.  

[Ju87s]

Hence my point.

 

 

Ok, I get that you don't get it.  Not gonna waste any more time trying to explain it to you.  Come back when you've played gunboats.

[yashma]

 

they've hardly played DDs at all, and have mostly been Japanese stealth torpers in the few games they've played.  They have no idea what they're talking about.

 

Well then please enlighten us as to why you feel not being able to stealth fire is not an issue, but having such a large detection bloom is? 

[yashma]

 

Ok, I get that you don't get it.  Not gonna waste any more time trying to explain it to you.  Come back when you've played gunboats.

Counting the Akizuki and Soviet DDs, I have 113 battles in "gun boats" during the last two weeks.