Things about Destroyers that make me scratch my head

[Warlord_Deadeye_Pete]

Nope, I'ts not about play'n em per say.   I can drive a DD with the best of em.  Love play'n em, lotta fun!

 

It's really about the "Flavor"  And how one line has really take'n in the johnnies!

 

So What are IJN DD's good for these days?

 

 They have torpedo's that are slower then everyone else's and can be spotted from further off (Very Historical.  NOT!. (IJN Torps in the real world were very hard to spot in the water! and could be quite fast.. it all depended on the settings there was a standard slow medium and fast setting..but these were Oxygen fueled torpedo's and didn't have a wake to spot).

 

  The IJN Line is not the stealthiest any more at all.  Those new tier 2,3 and 4 torpedo boat destroyers (Give em their REAL designation there!) of the German line have them seriously beat, and with much better guns with a higher rate of fire, adequate traverse  and longer range.  Oh yea and their torpedo  pretty much almost as long ranged as the IJN ones but faster.  Um yea..

 

*head scratching*

 

 That last bothers me especially..  The IJN DD's are supposed to be best of type for trpedo warfare.  Which they might have once been..Untill torpedo's period got seriously nurfed..and surface detection values pretty much got raised with the line split more recently.  It does not feel right, and the IJN's entire DD line is suffering from it's effects.

 

So low and mid tier  IJN DD's are no longer the best at anything anything now.  from tier II to tier VII they lack a lot of punch in an y hands of anything thing other then a fairly experd ... and Lucky DD driver.   I think they need some buffage. I think torpedo's for the IJN being slow torps easily spotted (and dodged) really has got to be changed.  It just feels totally wrong.

 

As for the issues of getting torped by a ship you didn't see.  There a whole lot to be said for players learning to be careful about being torped.  Of recognizing when they are vulnerable and not letting that happen.

 

 There are quite a number of ships that can do it to you with gun fire now..Including apparently most of the German DD line, but there's all ready a number of cruiser that can pull that off.   There is one IJN DD that can pull it off..(Akizuki!)  but you really need to spec for it with modules and commander skills to make the best use of the capability.. And of course commander skills will be changing within the next few months.

 

I do hope that some adjustments should be made.. and not to the new lines, but to existing lines.  Hey US and iJN BB's could also use some help here and there.  Low mid tier secondaries are a joke for the two lines.. start with those.

 

.   

[ckupf]

Two words: Power Creep

[vak_]

So What are IJN DD's good for these days?

They have torpedo's that are slower then everyone else's

 

False -- Yugumo and Shima with 76kt F3 torps immediately come to mind. I assume your entire post will be like this, so I didn't bother reading further.

[awildseaking]

 

False -- Yugumo and Shima with 76kt F3 torps immediately come to mind. I assume your entire post will be like this, so I didn't bother reading further.

 

They're actually effectively slower because of detection range. F3s are one of the most misleading and disingenuous features WG has implemented. The kneejerk reaction to F3s is "oh, 76kt is really fast!" Then you look up the detection ranges and see that they have 1.9km det range, meaning you get 9 seconds to react to them. If you throw in vigilance or TA mod, that det range increases from 1.9 -> 2.375 -> 2.85. That means you now get 13.5 seconds to react to them! Now imagine what happens if a CV happens to spot your torpedoes or someone is running hydro. Alternatively, someone could light the DD with radar, implying that torps are coming and you should turn out. For comparison, Gearing's Mk 17s have 1.4km det with 16.5km range at 66kt, leaving you with effectively 7.64sec to react. Even better, Gearing has the same ship detection range as Shimakaze! Isn't that funny? OP is completely right. IJN DD suck at their national flavor.

[HazardDrake]

 

False -- Yugumo and Shima with 76kt F3 torps immediately come to mind. I assume your entire post will be like this, so I didn't bother reading further.

 

OK, now name some IJN torpedoes that are actually usable in your average random battle by an average player.

 

Most players are smart enough not to count those suicide specials as anything approaching a valid option.

[csp0811]

I'm ok with buffing IJN torps if USN can get some of its national flavor back as well.

 

AA power creep is real, and is killing off the carrier population. USN ships give up a lot to get AA power (like getting miniscule secondary gun power, no torps on cruisers, etc.)

 

Give USN the lead in AA again, by a large margin. This will bring in more carriers who feel somewhat less pressure overall, and thus more planes for USN ships to shoot down. This will also help slightly offset the increased power of IJN torps; more planes = easier to spot torps and DDs, thus preventing IJN from becoming super OP with a buff.

[PEROPERO_MAIKA_STOCKINGS]

I'm ok with buffing IJN torps if USN can get some of its national flavor back as well.

 

AA power creep is real, and is killing off the carrier population. USN ships give up a lot to get AA power (like getting miniscule secondary gun power, no torps on cruisers, etc.)

 

Give USN the lead in AA again, by a large margin. This will bring in more carriers who feel somewhat less pressure overall, and thus more planes for USN ships to shoot down. This will also help slightly offset the increased power of IJN torps; more planes = easier to spot torps and DDs, thus preventing IJN from becoming super OP with a buff.

 

I'm almost certain its not because of USN DD AA power that high tier CVs are effectively dead. In fact, how does adding more AA in an already AA rich environment actually bring CV players back? 

 

USN DD flavor, especially at high tiers, is having the best torpedo, along with having enough strength to brawl in caps. 

[Znayut]

 

I'm almost certain its not because of USN DD AA power that high tier CVs are effectively dead. In fact, how does adding more AA in an already AA rich environment actually bring CV players back? 

 

USN DD flavor, especially at high tiers, is having the best torpedo, along with having enough strength to brawl in caps. 

 

What he's saying is not to buff USN AA to absurd levels, but to lower the across the board solid AA on other nations.

 

I presume

[vak_]

OK, now name some IJN torpedoes that are actually usable in your average random battle by an average player.

 

I was replying to a categorical statement about IJN DD torpedoes being slower than everybody else's. That's not true.

 

As for you (entirely separate) point -- yes, IJN DDs take skill to use effectively. Yes, average (and especially below average) players will have a hard time using short-range IJN torpedoes effectively at high tiers. And?.. What, the idea is to have every single ship perform absolutely the same in an average person's hands? That will never happen. I'd also much prefer to have variety than equality.

 

They're actually effectively slower because of detection range

 

OP said nothing about detection range.

 

If you throw in vigilance or TA mod, that det range increases

 

TA doesn't change detection range.

[LupusMalum]

 

False -- Yugumo and Shima with 76kt F3 torps immediately come to mind. I assume your entire post will be like this, so I didn't bother reading further.

F3 torps=Suicide torpedos- no other ship has to subject itself to radar, hydro, RN cruisers or any CA, CL kill range to make an impact. Also throw in a CV who will be flying planes over your avenues of approach. Also thru in every other DD in the game that will own an IJN dd at close range. WG has effectively made the IJN  DD branch unable to defend it self or make a meaningful impact. And yes there are some  awesome players that can make it work. But the handicap that is placed on the IJN dd branch is unfair and very biased to certain players BB and some CA that have a problem accepting that they have been torped from good, fair play. But these same players have no problem instant deleting a ship from 15+ Km due to the citadel mechanic. And yes I know that IJN dds have guns ( which suffer from slow reloads and slow turret rotation ), but due to the low hp pool, counterproductively for torpedo tactics and the focus fire attention from the enemy team, looking for an easy kill. Shooting with your guns is another death sentence. And no I am not looking for you to be reasonable and see the crime that has been done to the IJN branch, who historically had the best and stealthiest torps, but due to some players inability to adept and get better, WG had to throw them a crutch and nerf IJN DDs for " Historical balancing".  

[LupusMalum]

And yes TA lets a player detect a DD in smoke or even when the DD is behind a mountain or island.

[Braize]

 

I'm almost certain its not because of USN DD AA power that high tier CVs are effectively dead. In fact, how does adding more AA in an already AA rich environment actually bring CV players back? 

 

USN DD flavor, especially at high tiers, is having the best torpedo, along with having enough strength to brawl in caps. 

 

Any good US destroyer player uses the AA mod and also the tier 1 captain skill, including the Defensive Fire consumable. Which is why a lot of them seem to have very good AA.

[Ajax_the_Great1]

Wargaming had a knee jerk reaction to all the Shimakaze complaints and decided to nerf everything. It's pretty dumb.

[Braize]

The problem is the ship itself. It's pretty much impossible to actually balance a ship that slings walls of 15 torpedoes that hit for damn near 20k a pop.

[ryuukei8569]

 

OK, now name some IJN torpedoes that are actually usable in your average random battle by an average player.

 

Most players are smart enough not to count those suicide specials as anything approaching a valid option.

 

The 12 K torps on shima are actually very useful and quite effective. because to be honest, firing torpedoes at anything beyond 12 k is usually a gigantic waste of time anyway. Even if you have the stealthiest torps out there with a 4 second reaction time, if your spamming torps from over 12 k out your not really going to hit a sausage anyway. Even with Gearing having a 16.5 k torp range that last few kilometers of range is practically worthless. I fell a lot more players would be successful if they actually grew a pair and got into useful torp ranges, instead of uselessly spamming torps from 15 k away.

[Capt_Mexib]

Nope, I'ts not about play'n em per say.   I can drive a DD with the best of em.  Love play'n em, lotta fun!

 

It's really about the "Flavor"  And how one line has really take'n in the johnnies!

 

So What are IJN DD's good for these days?

 

 They have torpedo's that are slower then everyone else's and can be spotted from further off (Very Historical.  NOT!. (IJN Torps in the real world were very hard to spot in the water! and could be quite fast.. it all depended on the settings there was a standard slow medium and fast setting..but these were Oxygen fueled torpedo's and didn't have a wake to spot).

 

  The IJN Line is not the stealthiest any more at all.  Those new tier 2,3 and 4 torpedo boat destroyers (Give em their REAL designation there!) of the German line have them seriously beat, and with much better guns with a higher rate of fire, adequate traverse  and longer range.  Oh yea and their torpedo  pretty much almost as long ranged as the IJN ones but faster.  Um yea..

 

*head scratching*

 

 That last bothers me especially..  The IJN DD's are supposed to be best of type for trpedo warfare.  Which they might have once been..Untill torpedo's period got seriously nurfed..and surface detection values pretty much got raised with the line split more recently.  It does not feel right, and the IJN's entire DD line is suffering from it's effects.

 

So low and mid tier  IJN DD's are no longer the best at anything anything now.  from tier II to tier VII they lack a lot of punch in an y hands of anything thing other then a fairly experd ... and Lucky DD driver.   I think they need some buffage. I think torpedo's for the IJN being slow torps easily spotted (and dodged) really has got to be changed.  It just feels totally wrong.

 

As for the issues of getting torped by a ship you didn't see.  There a whole lot to be said for players learning to be careful about being torped.  Of recognizing when they are vulnerable and not letting that happen.

 

 There are quite a number of ships that can do it to you with gun fire now..Including apparently most of the German DD line, but there's all ready a number of cruiser that can pull that off.   There is one IJN DD that can pull it off..(Akizuki!)  but you really need to spec for it with modules and commander skills to make the best use of the capability.. And of course commander skills will be changing within the next few months.

 

I do hope that some adjustments should be made.. and not to the new lines, but to existing lines.  Hey US and iJN BB's could also use some help here and there.  Low mid tier secondaries are a joke for the two lines.. start with those.

 

.   

 

"I said, IJN DD, good god, now, what is it good for?
Absolutely, nothing
Say it again, IJN DD, what is it good for?
Absolutely, nothing, listen to me
IJN DD, it ain't nothing but a heart breaker
IJN DD, friend only to the undertaker,

(DD, DD, DD, DD)
IJN DD, what is it good for?
Absolutely nothing.
Say it, IJN DD, good god now, what is it good for?
Absolutely nothing, say it, (IJN DD)"

 

Well I kind of like the Yugumo. With the right upgrades and captain it's a good all arounder.

Oh, and thanks Edwin.

 

 

[csp0811]

 

What he's saying is not to buff USN AA to absurd levels, but to lower the across the board solid AA on other nations.

 

I presume

 

Yes this what I meant, to lower other nation AA strength. This will lower overall AA in the game but make USN more useful, especially since there will hopefully be more CVs.

[_hat_]

 

>snip<

I saw what you did there.

[Warlord_Deadeye_Pete]

 

"I said, IJN DD, good god, now, what is it good for?
Absolutely, nothing
Say it again, IJN DD, what is it good for?
Absolutely, nothing, listen to me
IJN DD, it ain't nothing but a heart breaker
IJN DD, friend only to the undertaker,

(DD, DD, DD, DD)
IJN DD, what is it good for?
Absolutely nothing.
Say it, IJN DD, good god now, what is it good for?
Absolutely nothing, say it, (IJN DD)"

 

Well I kind of like the Yugumo. With the right upgrades and captain it's a good all arounder.

Oh, and thanks Edwin.

 

 

 

 

From the Desk of the Original Poster:

 

  *whistles thumping on table with shoe*  Yea right on, well done!

 

Look guys.. I'm not talking about the tier 8,9 and 10 IJN DD's they still have a bit of their "Mojo" still.. The tier 7 are ok, though I've gotten gun kill with the tier VII Akatsuki of all things..(been doing that alot lately.. the gun got just a tiny bit of a buff with the split and are a bit more usefull then they used to do...

 

It's the DD's from tier II,III,IV, V, and VI that just don't have a strong point any more...

 

One of the posters hit it on the nail.. slower torps, more time to avoid...and the easiest way to avoid torps you see coming at you is just to chop the trottle, let em go by the bow.. (yes, it's ok to use those WASD hacks...  Honest.. !)  Coupled with the fact a number of the lower tier ships have a less then .5 Km window to get those torps out while unseen... it's bad guys..  

 

In period IJN torps were "dial a setting" short range (8-10 Km),and very fast, medium range and average speed 10-16Km),  or long range and slow (48 knots and as much as 24 km) Historical speed for IJN Long Lance torpedo could be set at launch, and the speed setting determined the range.    Now yea, I get it the historical number per se just wont work with the game..but on the onther they should be better then they are for the low and mid tier DD's... They need the help...

 

So yea a touch more input from me...It seemed some of what I posted needed some clarification as to the whys and where fores..

 

Warlord sends

 

 

 

[Capt_Mexib]

 

 

From the Desk of the Original Poster:

 

  *whistles thumping on table with shoe*  Yea right on, well done!

 

Look guys.. I'm not talking about the tier 8,9 and 10 IJN DD's they still have a bit of their "Mojo" still.. The tier 7 are ok, though I've gotten gun kill with the tier VII Akatsuki of all things..(been doing that alot lately.. the gun got just a tiny bit of a buff with the split and are a bit more usefull then they used to do...

 

It's the DD's from tier II,III,IV, V, and VI that just don't have a strong point any more...

 

One of the posters hit it on the nail.. slower torps, more time to avoid...and the easiest way to avoid torps you see coming at you is just to chop the trottle, let em go by the bow.. (yes, it's ok to use those WASD hacks...  Honest.. !)  Coupled with the fact a number of the lower tier ships have a less then .5 Km window to get those torps out while unseen... it's bad guys..  

 

In period IJN torps were "dial a setting" short range (8-10 Km),and very fast, medium range and average speed 10-16Km),  or long range and slow (48 knots and as much as 24 km) Historical speed for IJN Long Lance torpedo could be set at launch, and the speed setting determined the range.    Now yea, I get it the historical number per se just wont work with the game..but on the onther they should be better then they are for the low and mid tier DD's... They need the help...

 

So yea a touch more input from me...It seemed some of what I posted needed some clarification as to the whys and where fores..

 

Warlord sends

 

 

 

Yes, you are right about that.